The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: twyacht on April 15, 2012, 05:04:03 PM

Title: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: twyacht on April 15, 2012, 05:04:03 PM
This may be the start of something....

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/tim-mcnabb/charter-arms-40-cal-revolver/

Images at link....

Charter Arms .40 Cal Revolver

Posted on April 15, 2012 by Tim McNabb

That’s right – I said .40 cal, as in the .40 S&W.  This sturdy little revolver has a patented detent that allows a rimless cartridge to snap snugly into the cylinder and stay there until you intentionally eject it.  No “moon clips” needed…


I gave it a try with an inert cartridge provided by the nice guys manning Charter Arm’s booth. It takes just a little finger pressure to load, but the cartridge snaps into place. No idea how a speed loader would work, or even if a speed loader is available.

Beyond this interesting innovation, it seems to be a rugged, well made revolver.  Pull the trigger, bang.  I noted that the trigger did not have that gritty feel as my Smith J-Frame 642.

*****

OK I'm interested.... ;D Where is the .45?

Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Pecos Bill on April 15, 2012, 05:32:14 PM
Ruger did a similar thing years ago with 9 mm. They used a wire spring arrangement. Gun didn't sell. Who, these days, is going to buy a 40 revolver with six shots when you can get a similar sized semi-auto that holds twice or three times the number of shots? Great idea and I hope Charter sells a ton of them but I bet they don't.

Pecos
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 15, 2012, 05:38:36 PM
Kinda agree with Pecos on this one.  Why load for the an anemic "Short & Weak" when you already have the power and history of the .357 Magnum?

Haven't they been talking about this for a few years now?
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: twyacht on April 15, 2012, 05:59:27 PM
You Short & Weak bashers are forgetting the .gov't thought using tax dollars to contract up to a half a billion Federal JHP's in .40 was worth it.,and it is the most popular LEO caliber, after the failings of the 9mm....

Not all of us carry a .45 (although I do, from time to time, because I celebrate diversity) ::).....and those that know there are more criminals in prison proud of their 9mm "scars"...as they still walk around, the .40 takes the speed of the 9, and the BE of the .45 in a compromise that is effective and popular.

As to the wheel gun......ask alf, or Haz,....some folks would rather have the reliability of a platform that has proven itself with minimal mechanical interaction.....and you know the way to Carnegie Hall right?

Practice
....If you can shoot, 6 has worked very effectively for longer than the 1911 platform, or semi platform has been in existence....and still does.... ;D

Jus' sayin'''' ;)

Review the numbers..

http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php

Than use your Google-Fu, to research one shot stop ratings.....

Nuff said... ::)
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 15, 2012, 06:14:30 PM
I practice head shots with a .22 lr these days!

Badgersmilk taught me!

 ;D ;D

I know the .40 is good enuf!  Just wondering who'd take the bait....

Tag!  Your it TW... ;)
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: twyacht on April 15, 2012, 06:20:06 PM
Tag!  Your it TW...

Yes I am,...and running as fast as I can....FAIL.....
:P
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: alfsauve on April 16, 2012, 06:39:57 AM
As to the wheel gun......ask alf, or Haz,....some folks would rather have the reliability of a platform that has proven itself with minimal mechanical interaction....

Ah, you assume that because I'm fascinated (obsessed) with shooting revolvers that I advocate them for carry.

[Getting on soap box.]

I believe a hammerless, striker-fired, "safety-action" pistol is the most reliable for the FIRST SHOT.     Very little of the mechanics are needed for that first shot and with the exception of the trigger, nothing is exposed that can become fouled.

But for FOLLOWUP shots, everything in a semi-auto must operate and it takes up a substantial amount of space for it to occur.  The possibility of failure in a less than ideal situation is high.

On a revolver, everything must operate BEFORE the FIRST SHOT can fire, and a large portion of the moving parts (by area) are exposed.    However, the space needed for this to operate is the same space that the gun occupies when at rest.

For FOLLOWUP shots on a revolver, if the first one fired, the subsequent ones are very likely to as well.  And of course in the case of ammo failure a revolver has a distinct advantage, along with the fact that FTF and FTE are not revolver terms.

There are many other pros and cons between the two platforms but for me (a civilian)  FIRST SHOT reliability is the top priority in a concealed carry gun.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Pecos Bill on April 16, 2012, 01:06:25 PM
Come on TW when did I bash the 40 S&W? READ my post. I carry a 40 occasionally. I also carry a wheel gun, occasionally. Mostly I carry a small 45 because I like the cartridge.

What I was referring to was in my opinion very few people are going to buy a 40 revolver instead of a 40 semi-auto. Rugers track record with a 9mm revolver is a good illustration. The gun died so quick that most don't know it existed. It worked just didn't sell.

You won't find me bashing many cartridges and I won't refer to the 40 S&W as "short and weak".

Pecos
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 16, 2012, 03:11:21 PM
Why ?
If it took 40 and 10mm it might sell, as it is it's just a waste of steel and advertising.
But you watch, the gun media will be telling you it's the greatest thing since soft toilet paper.
Ho Hum.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 16, 2012, 03:12:36 PM
There's soft toilet paper?
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Big Frank on April 16, 2012, 03:16:49 PM
There's soft toilet paper?

Great Scott! What will they think of next?  ;)
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 16, 2012, 06:35:02 PM
There's soft toilet paper?

Relatively.
And QUIT squeezing the damn Charmin Timothy !      ;D
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 16, 2012, 06:39:36 PM
Relatively.
And QUIT squeezing the damn Charmin Timothy !      ;D

I knew a stripper named Charmin!

I squoze her a time or two... ;D 8)  or three!
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 16, 2012, 06:49:30 PM
Why ?
If it took 40 and 10mm it might sell, as it is it's just a waste of steel and advertising.

It would have had more market appeal had it been built for both the .40 and the 10mm!  It's a SS frame, should be built stout enough for the hotter cartridge I'd expect!

What's the difference in case length/cartridge length, about .020-.030"?

I know there is a cult following for the 10mm out there.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 16, 2012, 06:59:49 PM
It would have had more market appeal had it been built for both the .40 and the 10mm!  It's a SS frame, should be built stout enough for the hotter cartridge I'd expect!

What's the difference in case length/cartridge length, about .020-.030"?

I know there is a cult following for the 10mm out there.

.142 inches
Seems like a spring loaded clip would not be a reliable item to head space from, so the chamber probably has a lip that headspaces from the cartridge mouth.
Means you could not chamber for both.
   :-[


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

Case length    .850 in (21.6 mm)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Case length    25.20 mm (0.992 in)
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 16, 2012, 07:55:43 PM
But .38 spcl to .357 mag is .135"!

What's the difference!  The datum reference being the bottom of the cartridge (primer end), wouldn't the headspace ratio be similar to the .38/.357?
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Pecos Bill on April 16, 2012, 08:19:00 PM
But .38 spcl to .357 mag is .135"!

What's the difference!  The datum reference being the bottom of the cartridge (primer end), wouldn't the headspace ratio be similar to the .38/.357?

Let's see if I've got this straight: the 38 Spl and 357 Mag head space on the raised rim at the rear of the cartridge case and the 40 S&W and the 10 mm Auto head space on the case mouth, correct? I'd say that's why it's difficult to use both the 40 and the 10 in the same chamber. I understand that both can be used in the Smith 610 because of the moon clips but I don't think I'd want to try.

Pecos
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 16, 2012, 11:04:30 PM
.38 and .357 head space from the rim, it's bigger around than the hole in the chamber so there's no way the rounds can move forward from that point.
.40 and 10 mm don't have rims, their largest case diameter is basically the same as the smallest case diameter, so traditional revolver head spacing at the rear of the cylinder won't work.
What they did with previous guns was machine a step in the chamber that left the forward portion larger than the bullet, but smaller than the case so they could headspace from the case mouth  .
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Solus on April 17, 2012, 09:36:31 AM
.38 and .357 head space from the rim, it's bigger around than the hole in the chamber so there's no way the rounds can move forward from that point.
.40 and 10 mm don't have rims, their largest case diameter is basically the same as the smallest case diameter, so traditional revolver head spacing at the rear of the cylinder won't work.
What they did with previous guns was machine a step in the chamber that left the forward portion larger than the bullet, but smaller than the case so they could headspace from the case mouth  .

FYI (Not necessarily Tom) this is the same reason a tapper crimp is used in rimless straight wall cartridges. They head space on the mouth of the case and roll crimping would make that unreliable.  The amount of taper is important.  Too much and it could be too small to catch the step, to little and the bullets will be pushed into the case by recoil and feeding.  Case length in this type of cartridge is critical for reloading.  Well, for factory ammo too..but it is not your worry if they do it right.

P.S. one 'reason' for this revolver might be because you reload for .40 S&W but not .357 Mag and feel it would be fun or advantageous to shoot a revolver.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: alfsauve on April 17, 2012, 03:35:42 PM
Plus if you're only going to use moon clips in a revolver then you can drill out the chambers so case length isn't an issue. 

Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: billt on April 18, 2012, 07:02:50 AM
Ruger did a similar thing years ago with 9 mm. They used a wire spring arrangement. Gun didn't sell. Pecos

If I'm not mistaken Federal tried some years back to put a rim on the 9 MM cartridge, and called it the 9 MM Federal, in an attempt to be able to shoot it in a revolver. I forget who made the revolver, but it flopped. I don't understand the gun companies sometimes. Ruger also had the .327 Federal "Magnum" and the .480 Ruger which was nothing more than a shortened .475 Linebaugh.

I never was attracted to the .40 S&W because I looked at it as a sort of backward development. In 1935 in an effort to give police a more powerful cartridge, Smith & Wesson lengthened the .38 Special, and in the process gave us the .357 Magnum. At the time it was the most powerful handgun cartridge made. Then, because evidently cops have trouble with powerful guns these days, they turned around and took the 10 MM and shortened it to give us the less powerful .40 S&W. So now you get twice the recoil of a 9 MM with about a 20% increase in muzzle energy. Not to mention it's about $4.00 to $7.00 a box more. If I want an auto pistol more powerful than a 9 MM I'll grab a .45 ACP and be done with it. If there is a need for more than that, I'll go with a 10 MM in a Glock.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Solus on April 18, 2012, 09:55:55 AM
If I'm not mistaken Federal tried some years back to put a rim on the 9 MM cartridge, and called it the 9 MM Federal, in an attempt to be able to shoot it in a revolver. I forget who made the revolver, but it flopped. I don't understand the gun companies sometimes. Ruger also had the .327 Federal "Magnum" and the .480 Ruger which was nothing more than a shortened .475 Linebaugh.

I never was attracted to the .40 S&W because I looked at it as a sort of backward development. In 1935 in an effort to give police a more powerful cartridge, Smith & Wesson lengthened the .38 Special, and in the process gave us the .357 Magnum. At the time it was the most powerful handgun cartridge made. Then, because evidently cops have trouble with powerful guns these days, they turned around and took the 10 MM and shortened it to give us the less powerful .40 S&W. So now you get twice the recoil of a 9 MM with about a 20% increase in muzzle energy. Not to mention it's about $4.00 to $7.00 a box more. If I want an auto pistol more powerful than a 9 MM I'll grab a .45 ACP and be done with it. If there is a need for more than that, I'll go with a 10 MM in a Glock.

I don't think that is quite true.  I was following the FBI ballistics tests closely at the time and what I heard then agrees with the information at this link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

The reason for the reduced load in the 10mm is that they found a 10mm loaded with a 170-180rg bullet at 900=1000 fps gave the ballistic performance that was required to meet the tests developed for performance measurement.

While it did have reduced recoil, that was not the reason it was downloaded.  

It was then that S&W realized that instead of using a downloaded 10mm case with a lot of empty capacity, they could achieve the same performance with a case sized to fit a 9mm frame.  

True, it has more recoil than the 9mm, but then the 9mm did not meet the performance requirements.

Vast improvements in bullet design have changed the performance characteristics of the calibers involved and allow some of the ones that failed the test to now pass.

I would prefer to carry my Glock 21 all the time...but it's size sometimes precludes that.  I could carry my 1911 to reduce the size, but then I'd also reduce the capacity AND increase the weight to where it becomes more of an issue.

Instead, I carry a Glock 23.  I get a more compact gun with the same capacity and nearly the same ballistic performance as the .45 ACP.

I don't see any reason to step down to a 9mm where I get the same capacity with a bit reduced performance in the same size/weight gun.  

I guess economics might be a reason, but if you reload that is mitigated somewhat.  I don't reload my carry ammo...mainly because I can't get the components...Barnes and Hornady don't offer the same bullets as components....   but then I don't have to shoot my carry ammo past reliability tests.  I can reload a round nose or plated bullet of the same weight to the same velocity and get a round that gives an equivalent "feel" for practice.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 18, 2012, 10:06:23 AM
Back to the OP!

It's a good cartridge in an inexpensive revolver made by an American company manufactured in the United States!

Charter backs their firearms with a Lifetime Warranty!  Any questions?
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: billt on April 18, 2012, 11:16:56 AM
Vast improvements in bullet design have changed the performance characteristics of the calibers involved and allow some of the ones that failed the test to now pass.

That is the key. +P 9 MM high performance defense ammo on the market today gives up nothing to the .40 S&W in defensive performance. The 10 MM is meant to be what it is, a round that all but duplicates .357 Magnum performance in an auto pistol. The FBI did little but make a glorified .38 Special +P out of it, which is what they were trying to get away from in the first place.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 18, 2012, 11:20:39 AM
Back to the OP!

It's a good cartridge in an inexpensive revolver made by an American company manufactured in the United States!

Charter backs their firearms with a Lifetime Warranty!  Any questions?


One of my supervisors at T/C once told me, "I don't care if it's right as long as we make the delivery date. We can always replace it later."
I think of that every time I hear some one bragging about their "Life time Warranty".
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: Timothy on April 18, 2012, 11:35:03 AM

One of my supervisors at T/C once told me, "I don't care if it's right as long as we make the delivery date. We can always replace it later."
I think of that every time I hear some one bragging about their "Life time Warranty".

So, you worked for an asshole once too?

Imagine that..... ;D ;D

I have a bunch of stuff that has "Lifetime" warranties.  My Swiss Army knife has been back to the factory service center three times.  My Dads Zippo he bought in boot camp in 1938 has been repaired as well as have several other Zippos in my collection.

I've yet to have to send any firearm in for service but I'd bet Ruger would do fine by me in that regard.  Para I don't know anymore since they've changed hands a few times now.  My Remington is 43 years old and never need anything more than a cleaning.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: billt on April 18, 2012, 12:28:50 PM
My Remington is 43 years old and never need anything more than a cleaning.

I have a few 700's that are about that old, and have have needed nothing but a cleaning and lube as well.
Title: Re: .40 S&W Caliber Revolver? No Need For Moon "Clips" From Charter Arms
Post by: ellis4538 on April 18, 2012, 04:13:05 PM
Hopefully Para will be good since they have been acquired by the same group that owns Remington.

Richard