The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Jkwas on December 10, 2008, 08:04:01 PM
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I keep a 38spl revolver at bedside, because it's way quieter than a .357 mag. My 3in barrel taurus 9mm is a quieter gun to shoot than my 4.5in 9mm Ruger. I suspect it's because the round isn't breaking the sound barrier out of the short barrel vs the long barrel. If that's the case, Subsonic 147gn 9mm should be quieter than screaming 124gn ammo, right?
What I'm driving at is this: Does it make more sense to use the slower, heavier round in a home defense situation in order to minimize hearing loss? Of course the right thing to do is to park a set of muffs on the bed post.
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The average decibel of noise from a gun shot is 146 db, more than enough to cause permanent damage to your hearing. Repeated exposure will futher damage the hearing and is not repairable. Similar to back injury, loss of hearing is cumulative.
The speed of sound is approximately 1132 ft per/second and most 9 mm ammo exceeds that muzzle speed. Since the timing of the explosion so closely matches the timing of the projectile leaving the barrel, I doubt it matters much. My .45 at 850 fps sounds just as loud as my 9 mm at 1250. Without precise timing instruments and db meters, you probably can't tell the difference.
Indoors, with the echo off the walls, a gunshot will definately sound louder than it does out of doors.
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3" barrel it won't matter whether it's subsonic or not. A 45 ACP is subsonic...still a loud booger.
Doesn't make sense to me to make a change for hearing loss.
Plywood state...Florida? Supressors are legal in Florida. That would be the right best thing to get to prevent hearing loss...get a supressor.
www.advanced-armament.com
www.gem-tech.com
www.major-malfunction.com
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Subsonic with a suppresor can be very quiet. With supersonic ammo the bullet makes a sonic boom when it breaks the sound barrier. Just like a jet aircraft.
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Yes, anything below 1000 fps is not as loud because it is not breaking the sound barrier.... But the difference in sound may not really be that noticeable.... you are still shooting a gun after all.
For home defense, I would concentrate on firing as few rounds as possible to save your hearing -- i.e. put down your target the first time so you dont need any follow up shots ;D
For personal defense rounds you need to focus more on finding a round that will deliver the most energy on your target for the particular caliber you are using -- there is an inflection point where less mass and more velocity will actually equal less energy. Additionally, you need to find a round that will also retain as close to 100% of its weight as possible..... lack of weight retention means that the energy is also being lost -- A round with 100% weight retention is delivering 100% of the advertised energy on target.
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A round with 100% weight retention is delivering 100% of the advertised energy on target, if it doesn't pass through the target.
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if it doesn't pass through the target.
True.
And if it does then there will be twice as much blood!
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I keep a 38spl revolver at bedside, because it's way quieter than a .357 mag. My 3in barrel taurus 9mm is a quieter gun to shoot than my 4.5in 9mm Ruger. I suspect it's because the round isn't breaking the sound barrier out of the short barrel vs the long barrel. If that's the case, Subsonic 147gn 9mm should be quieter than screaming 124gn ammo, right?
What I'm driving at is this: Does it make more sense to use the slower, heavier round in a home defense situation in order to minimize hearing loss? Of course the right thing to do is to park a set of muffs on the bed post.
You'll never notice the sound.
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The sonic wave from the escaping combustion gases behind the projectile are traveling at more than the speed of sound in any caliber firearm. Otherwise, any bullet leaving a muzzle would make no sound at all. When you here the boom, that's more likely what you hear. I assume a suppressor, captures those waves of sound and muffles them similar to any muffler design.
Pressure in the chambered casings are enormous, any of you guys who reload are aware of this and carefull not to exceed the recommended pressures. (I hope)...
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You'll never notice the sound.
That has been my thought as I read this thread. Not that you want to regularly shoot without protection, the few shots for self protection should do minimal hearing damage. Or, do you live in an area where you deal with weekly home invasions ;)
I would worry more about stopping the intruder than a minor hearing loss. I would compare this thought to thinking if you just drove below thirty miles per hour all the time you would not need to wear seat belts or have an airbag, because at full speed they may break your ribs or nose if you are in an accident. :-\
Purchase the ammo that will do the job, and hope you never need to use it.
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Permanent minor hearing loss. Perhaps a ringing in the ears for life. A small price to pay, but a nuisance none-the-less.
I'm there with the hearing loss and ringing...it's been my companion for 25 years. Still a bother.
If you can afford a supressor...get one.
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Ear muffs are good but make sure you get a pair of electronic muffs so you can hear sounds but GS's are muffeled!
Richard
PS: Muffeled...is that a word?
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Ear muffs are good but make sure you get a pair of electronic muffs so you can hear sounds but GS's are muffeled!
Richard
PS: Muffeled...is that a word?
Yes it's a word, but it's spelled "MUFFLED" according to my spell check ;D
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That has been my thought as I read this thread. Not that you want to regularly shoot without protection, the few shots for self protection should do minimal hearing damage. Or, do you live in an area where you deal with weekly home invasions ;)
I would worry more about stopping the intruder than a minor hearing loss. I would compare this thought to thinking if you just drove below thirty miles per hour all the time you would not need to wear seat belts or have an airbag, because at full speed they may break your ribs or nose if you are in an accident. :-\
Purchase the ammo that will do the job, and hope you never need to use it.
I think you are spot-on, m58.
Even if auditory exclusion causes you not to hear the bang, the damage is still done. But not enough damage to override the alternative. Better to have a little hearing damage than to be a helpless victim at the mercy of a thug.
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I think subsonic is more effective with a suppressor than supersonic and doesn't damage the baffling in the suppressor as quickly.
Just tossing that out as I vaguely remember discussing this with a Special Forces fella.
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Not necessarily. The sub/super matters because noise is being generated outside of the suppressor, thus reducing its effectiveness.
What actually matters for the "bang" is the pressure of the gas coming out of the barrel, and the size of the barrel. For the same bullet weight and diameter, then sub will always be quieter than super, because there is lower pressure after the bullet leaves. A good way to demonstrate this is with a .22 pistol vs. a .22 rifle. The bullet will always leave the rifle at a higher velocity than the pistol, but the pistol is always louder. Why is that? Because the volume of space in the barrel of the rifle is triple or more that of the pistol, with an accompanying drop in pressure when the bullet leaves the barrel.
Now, I don't know the actual math for caliber vs. pressure and which would contribute more or less. The area of a .45 barrel is larger than a .22, for example, so even though they may be operating at the same pressure (for argument's sake) the .45 generates more noise because there is a bigger volume of gas "shaking" the air around it, which is all that noise is. I would guess that the proper measurement would probably be volume of gas released over a period of time, which would take into account v = nrt/p, and cover all the variables.
H.
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Not necessarily. The sub/super matters because noise is being generated outside of the suppressor, thus reducing its effectiveness.
What actually matters for the "bang" is the pressure of the gas coming out of the barrel, and the size of the barrel. For the same bullet weight and diameter, then sub will always be quieter than super, because there is lower pressure after the bullet leaves. A good way to demonstrate this is with a .22 pistol vs. a .22 rifle. The bullet will always leave the rifle at a higher velocity than the pistol, but the pistol is always louder. Why is that? Because the volume of space in the barrel of the rifle is triple or more that of the pistol, with an accompanying drop in pressure when the bullet leaves the barrel.
Now, I don't know the actual math for caliber vs. pressure and which would contribute more or less. The area of a .45 barrel is larger than a .22, for example, so even though they may be operating at the same pressure (for argument's sake) the .45 generates more noise because there is a bigger volume of gas "shaking" the air around it, which is all that noise is. I would guess that the proper measurement would probably be volume of gas released over a period of time, which would take into account v = nrt/p, and cover all the variables.
H.
Thank you....that's what I was trying to think of...SPL (sound pressure level)...we used to conduct SPL tests at my old job for OSHA.
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Sub sonic rounds will not make a pistol quieter, the reason they use sub sonic rounds with suppressors is to eliminate the"crack" when the bullet passes through the air (mini sonic boom) pretty sure most pistol bullets are just below the sonic threshold any way.
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Sub sonic rounds will not make a pistol quieter, the reason they use sub sonic rounds with suppressors is to eliminate the"crack" when the bullet passes through the air (mini sonic boom) pretty sure most pistol bullets are just below the sonic threshold any way.
Sub-sonic .22 ammo is definately quieter in pistols and rifles. I don't know about other pistols because there's usually not an option of both sub-sonic and super-sonic. Most 9mm is super-sonic. .38 Super is super-sonic too. I think the only 9mm subsonic ammo is the heavy bullets like 147 gr. I don't have a 9mm so I can't say how it sounds with any ammo. But most other pistol calibers are subsonic. Most revolvers are loud even with sub-sonic ammo.
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Anything under approx 1000 fps is subsonic
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Anything under approx 1000 fps is subsonic
Anything under about 1100-1150 depending on who you ask. ;) BTW, some ammo that's subsonic in a pistol is super-sonic in a rifle. Just something to consider if you have a pistol caliber rifle. But at least with a rifle the blast pressure is farther away you.
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The speed of sound at sea level, considering 72 deg F, is 1131 fps +/- a skinch.....several factors change the value like altitude and temperature.
T
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The speed of sound at sea level, considering 72 deg F, is 1131 fps +/- a skinch.....several factors change the value like altitude and temperature.
T
What the hell's a 'skinch'?....Anything like a cat-hair or 'smidge'? ;D
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What the hell's a 'skinch'?....Anything like a cat-hair or 'smidge'? ;D
Exactly like a cat-hair... smidge....little bit......tad....iota....itty bitty...or the Grinch's sister, Skinch..... :D
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Exactly like a cat-hair... smidge....little bit......tad....iota....itty bitty...or the Grinch's sister, Skinch..... :D
"How The Skinch Stole Christmas"...sounds like a bad truck-stop story to me........... ;D
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Even subsonic ammo can damage your hearing. There is a big difference between outdoors and indoors, size of the room, where you/others are at in relation to the muzzle, etc.
Not noticing/being aware of the noise does not prevent the damage either. Stress/auditory exclusion can't be counted on to protect your hearing. One shot could damage your hearing for life, or not. One person might be able to get away w emptying a mag indoors w no/little damage, and another may be going "eh" the rest of their life after one shot.
Damage can be cumulative too. Not using enough hearing protection for a long time can damage your hearing as much as none one time.
Gunfire Noise Level Reference Chart
Below we have listed critical data describing peak sound pressure levels produced by firearms used in shooting and hunting sports. A serious byproduct of this exposure is sensory-neural hearing loss, which cannot be restored to normal. With the introduction of MUZZLE BRAKES and PORTING, the risks of hearing loss dramatically increase. Use this chart as a reference guide for promoting the need of using adequate hearing protection.
Notations
Keep in mind that conversational speech is approximately 60-65 dB, and the threshold of pain is considered to be 140 dB. According to Dr. William Clark, Ph.D. senior research scientist in charge of the NOISE LABORATORY at the Central Institute for the Deaf in St. Louis, the damage caused by one shot from a .357 magnum pistol, which can expose a shooter to 165 dB for 2msec, is equivalent to over 40 hours in a noisy workplace. Dr. Krammer, Ph.D., Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana has documented the following pressure levels.
Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB
26" barrel 150.25dB
18" barrel 156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB
22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18" barrel 161.50dB
Dr. Krammer continues to say that shotgun noise averaged slightly more that 150dB. This is approximately 14dB beyond the threshold of pain, and more than sufficient to cause sudden hearing loss with complications.
Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB
Krammer adds that sound pressure levels for the various pistols and ammunition tested yielded an average mean of 157.5 dB, which is greater than those previously shown for shotgun and rifle noise levels. There was also a greater range, from 152.4dB to 164.5dB, representing 12 dB difference, or more than 10 time as much acoustic energy for the top end of the pistol spectrum. It should be noticed that this figure of 164.5 dB approaches the practical limit of impulse noise measurement capability inherent in most modern sound level meters.
Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
The above averages are for all types of ammunition used in these firearms, and should be considered fairly representative. No wonder we hear numerous reports about hearing loss as a result of firearms including acoustic traumas that take hearing completely as a result of one shot. Imagine what the noise levels must be when we incorporate muzzle brakes or porting into firearms, or have a gun explode near the ear due to malfunction.
OUR WARNING IS SIMPLE AND IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF EACH SHOOTER. AS THE SOUND PRESSURES INCREASE, SO DOES THE RISK OF PERMANENT HEARING LOSS. IF YOU INCORPORATE A PROCEDURE INTO YOUR SHOOTING THAT INCREASES THE SOUND LEVEL, YOU ALSO INCREASE THE RISK OF HEARING LOSS TO YOURSELF AND POSSIBLY THOSE WHO STAND NEAR YOU. BE SURE TO USE ADEQUATE EAR PROTECTION WHEN USING A FIREARM AND BE CAREFUL OF THOSE NEARBY. LAWSUITS HAVE ALREADY BEEN RECOGNIZED FOR GUNFIRE NOISE THAT HAS RESULTED IN HEARING LOSS. ALWAYS CONSULT A PROFESSIONAL AUDIOLOGIST, OTOLOGIST, OR OTOLARYNGOLOGIST WITH YOUR HEARING PROBLEMS. Hearing loss is not fun and can be prevented.
Compliments of http://www.earinc.com/
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"How The Skinch Stole Christmas"...sounds like a bad truck-stop story to me........... ;D
Never, ever let your Skinch get ahold of your credit card...They won't steal X-Mas...they will BUY it...!!!
P.S. Thanks 1st Sergeant, MikeO
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That was VERY interesting MikeO. Thank you for posting it.