The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Hazcat on March 22, 2008, 07:22:10 AM
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America is sitting on top of a super massive 200 billion barrel Oil Field that could potentially make America Energy Independent and until now has largely gone unnoticed. Thanks to new technology the Bakken Formation in North Dakota could boost America’s Oil reserves by an incredible 10 times, giving western economies the trump card against OPEC’s short squeeze on oil supply and making Iranian and Venezuelan threats of disrupted supply irrelevant.
In the next 30 days the USGS (U.S. Geological Survey) will release a new report giving an accurate resource assessment of the Bakken Oil Formation that covers North Dakota and portions of South Dakota and Montana. With new horizontal drilling technology it is believed that from 175 to 500 billion barrels of recoverable oil are held in this 200,000 square mile reserve that was initially discovered in 1951. The USGS did an initial study back in 1999 that estimated 400 billion recoverable barrels were present but with prices bottoming out at $10 a barrel back then the report was dismissed because of the higher cost of horizontal drilling techniques that would be needed, estimated at $20-$40 a barrel.
It was not until 2007, when EOG Resources of Texas started a frenzy when they drilled a single well in Parshal N.D. that is expected to yield 700,000 barrels of oil that real excitement and money started to flow in North Dakota. Marathon Oil is investing $1.5 billion and drilling 300 new wells in what is expected to be one of the greatest booms in Oil discovery since Oil was discovered in Saudi Arabia in 1938.
The US imported about 14 million barrels of Oil per day in 2007 , which means US consumers sent about $340 Billion Dollars over seas building palaces in Dubai and propping up unfriendly regimes around the World, if 200 billion barrels of oil at $90 a barrel are recovered in the high plains the added wealth to the US economy would be $18 Trillion Dollars which would go a long way in stabilizing the US trade deficit and could cut the cost of oil in half in the long run.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news2.13s.html
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If the tree huggers don't put a stop to it like they did the the Alaskan oil fields this will good.
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The Tree Huggers won't let us drill in Alaska, off the coast of Florida, or build wind turbines. what they want is for us to cook food over cow dung, the cows of course being protected by PETA. PC is gonna kill me.....
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Ok guys...I'll take the heat I'm in the oil production business. But here is the dirty little secret...the oil companies do not want the price as high as it is...and we aren't getting that 100-110 dollars per barrel free and clear. In brief:
1. Clinton put oil on the commodities market....thanks. Whilst we were getting $80--$85 a barrel the speculators drove it to the $110 that the refiners bought that you paid.
2. Oh yeah, 42 gallons in a barrel.....do that math versus the pump.
3. On average, 20% of what we produce goes to the mineral owner (hint...hint...who is the biggest...U.S. Govt.). So on that $80...it leaves...$64...still a lot of money.
4. Wait...severance tax on oil...about 12.5%...so off $80 it leaves us with $54...a lot of money.
5. But wait....more tax..ad valorem tax, transport fees (sort of like on your phone bill...). state income taxes, local fees, etc. etc....knock off another $10 of that so....$44 left...still a lot of money.
6. Costs us...oh say a cheap producer....$10 a barrel on the stripper stuff we have left..some more some less...$34 a barrel..and this cost doesn't change come rain, shine or price and it pays all of the bills and stuffs our pockets.....
7. Still a lot of money and remember that's off the $80 we don't get the $110....the useless ass middle man business major slug get's that $30 sitting in a high rise eating fancy lunches and I've buried two of my friends I worked offshore with due to mishaps.
8. OK...leaves a lot of money. Typical well? Oh call it $1,000,000 to drill and set up...that will get you about 100,000 barrels so it costs us about $10 to make that $34 so it's not $34 it's $24. Still a lot of money..
9. To clear that $24 a barrel...well you've got to produce that well about 8 years so not a bad return at $80 (not $110...remember) a barrel if the price stays up....if it drops, well most of us will make it as the taxes are %'s and slide but not all will make it.
10. Wait, I forgot...not every well is a keeper. Let's say we drill two to get one good one...well now that means another $1,000,000 with nothing for it so..ooops we lost another $10 a barrel down to $14.
11. I love this business. I really do...but this, though generalized with approximations is a accurate representation.
Biggest problem right now. The worthless $. All oil has been traded in $'s...Arabs buy goods in Euros, Yuans, Marks, etc.
If the $ was on a one to one basis with the Euro the oil price they got would be $55 a barrel...but ooops...it's $1.58 to get a Euro so....they had to increase the price to keep buying power.
Also...we almost had a run on banks like in 1929 last weekend. D
Did ya'll notice?
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Rastus,
While I believe your thoughts the weak dollar does not explain it all.
If your numbers are correct then oil should be selling for 86.9 a barrel (1.58 x 55).
In any case we need to become less dependent on imported oil. We have this new deposit, Alaska, Florida, and oil shale in Wyoming (I think that's the place). This along with alternative sources should be aggressively pursued, IMO.
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Rastus,
While I believe your thoughts the weak dollar does not explain it all.
If your numbers are correct then oil should be selling for 86.9 a barrel (1.58 x 55).
It was quick...but did you consider the commodities market?
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It was quick...but did you consider the commodities market?
That and futures speculators are IMO, the biggest problem.
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Ratus,
Doesn't the dozens of different blends you have to produce play into the equation also?
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All of the above, thanks for the info Rastus.
Has anyone noticed how the gummint has "allowed" certain markets to be controlled by a select, secret few? The cattle market was disconnected between the cow and the grocery store over 20 years ago, controlled by a handful of now very wealthy speculators (the proverbial "middle men"). Same with gas - anyone else know that the pump price has nothing to do with the actual price of oil required to produce it? It is all tied to spot speculation prices on a day-to-day basis.
These and other activities (tin foil hat alert) are some of the reasons why I believe the fix is in, national and international economics will control the next generation of Americans and other world denizens and nothing will be allowed to stand in its way. That's why the Mexican border is not closed, just part of the plan. And does anyone here remember voting to allow that damned credit rating to control your life?
Just thinking out loud. 8)
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That and futures speculators are IMO, the biggest problem.
I work for a Cooperation that makes medical devices, Vein harvesters, Biopsy snippers, Stents etc. This facility had $22 MILLION in profits last year, in the last 2 or 3 years they have done away with profit sharing, Christmas bonuses, and insurance costs for employees continue to climb, meanwhile they can afford to lay out $750,000 per facility, to switch to a new record keeping software, while they tell the workers that they are striving to be a "Top 100 Employer". Where did that $22 Million go ? The investors. I have no problem with the capitalist system, but I was under the impression that Capitalists got increased profits from increased sales, not by flogging them out of the workers who are earning them their money.
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I work for a Cooperation that makes medical devices, Vein harvesters, Biopsy snippers, Stents etc. This facility had $22 MILLION in profits last year, in the last 2 or 3 years they have done away with profit sharing, Christmas bonuses, and insurance costs for employees continue to climb, meanwhile they can afford to lay out $750,000 per facility, to switch to a new record keeping software, while they tell the workers that they are striving to be a "Top 100 Employer". Where did that $22 Million go ? The investors. I have no problem with the capitalist system, but I was under the impression that Capitalists got increased profits from increased sales, not by flogging them out of the workers who are earning them their money.
Causes one to want a union....doesn't it. The Bible records God's word as requiring paying a worker a fair wage due him...MBA's contest that daily, don't they. I'm not thinking any system, including capitalism, works well without true Bible believers in charge. My folks were union and we lived well, all was good.....
Also...the foreign oil...it used to cost $1/bbl to transport on a tanker....that was in '94 when I was on that side for a while..probably $2 or more now.
And please, remember 42 gallons in a barrel and....that it takes a couple of months for oil to cycle from sales to the pump. So...why is it the filling stations jump prices the "next day" or so when oil goes up $10/bbl (24 cents a gallon cost...maybe 36-50 cents or more at the pump)? We should not be so naive as to believe the people who sell us water for $1.19 a pint are really losing money on gas just because they say so.....
Sorry, bottled water (and soft drinks) is one of my pet peeves and there are no congressional investigations on something that costs pennies being sold for $$$$'s....let's be fair here. Oil can be less and so can EVERYTHING ELSE but....I digress yet again.
By the way...I'm with you on the medical supplies...my wife was on the heart transplant list for about 10 years and things aren't cheap (thanks to Jesus, she got better without a transplant). I had to argue costs...I asked the doctors if I was paying for the non-pays...I already knew that answer...so when they said yes I told then I don't mind them making Mercedes wages for our part of costs...I will work to pay my way...but how about him splitting costs on the non-pays and lowering that part to "Ford & Chevy" wages to give me a break. Across the board they cut the bills, saying they never thought of it that way.
This Godless welfare state that was created has caused all sorts of "backdraft".
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Geez, You guys gave me a freakin headache. After reading Haz's post I though gas was gonna be a quarter a gallon again and then the rest of you guys just screwed it all up. I need a beer :'(
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Though it will never be .25 a gallon again (remember Sunoco 103?) it should be much less expensive if the environmental Luddites would shut up (or be slapped down).
We need to drill NOW, we should have been building refineries already. This 300 different blends crap has to stop. All of those things would help tremendously.
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Causes one to want a union....doesn't it. The Bible records God's word as requiring paying a worker a fair wage due him...MBA's contest that daily, don't they. I'm not thinking any system, including capitalism, works well without true Bible believers in charge. My folks were union and we lived well, all was good.....
Also...the foreign oil...it used to cost $1/bbl to transport on a tanker....that was in '94 when I was on that side for a while..probably $2 or more now.
And please, remember 42 gallons in a barrel and....that it takes a couple of months for oil to cycle from sales to the pump. So...why is it the filling stations jump prices the "next day" or so when oil goes up $10/bbl (24 cents a gallon cost...maybe 36-50 cents or more at the pump)? We should not be so naive as to believe the people who sell us water for $1.19 a pint are really losing money on gas just because they say so.....
Sorry, bottled water (and soft drinks) is one of my pet peeves and there are no congressional investigations on something that costs pennies being sold for $$$$'s....let's be fair here. Oil can be less and so can EVERYTHING ELSE but....I digress yet again.
By the way...I'm with you on the medical supplies...my wife was on the heart transplant list for about 10 years and things aren't cheap (thanks to Jesus, she got better without a transplant). I had to argue costs...I asked the doctors if I was paying for the non-pays...I already knew that answer...so when they said yes I told then I don't mind them making Mercedes wages for our part of costs...I will work to pay my way...but how about him splitting costs on the non-pays and lowering that part to "Ford & Chevy" wages to give me a break. Across the board they cut the bills, saying they never thought of it that way.
This Godless welfare state that was created has caused all sorts of "backdraft".
Rastus, great rant. Check my rant on the previous page - gas prices have nothing to do with oil prices other than what the speculators say the price is on that day. So you're right, gas goes up when oil goes up - same day - and goes down - eventually, maybe - when oil goes down. It is a scam.
God has blessed your wife. Have a joyous Easter, Brother.
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Though it will never be .25 a gallon again (remember Sunoco 103?) it should be much less expensive if the environmental Luddites would shut up (or be slapped down).
We need to drill NOW, we should have been building refineries already. This 300 different blends crap has to stop. All of those things would help tremendously.
103 Octane I remember that...man am I gettin' old...a friend of mine used to keep Avgas in his second tank (Ford truck with 460 that ate late '70's Trans Ams for lunch) for work off the "line".
About the drilling...not a lot left. The reliable place to find large reserves is offshore. We just don't have the geology or remaining reserves to be self-sufficient on oil....just can't happen unless we can get down to 4-5 million barrels a day in consumption.
Another note for all...if the supercollider in Texas had not been canned...no tellin' what we would have learned....maybe more on how atoms, sub-atomic partilces and molecules interact. I only say this because only government has the resources for such large projects that can't guarantee results. If we had more knowledge...we may be able, for instance, to make room temperature superconductors for transmission lines and homes.
See, we lose upwards to 40% of the power generated in line loss. Your bill reflects nearly 40% of electricity generated that did not get to your home...think about that....and the short-sighted hidden costs of the welfare state.
But, all this must necessarily come to pass. It's Easter, bless all the brothers and sisters who love the God who gave his Son. I'm waiting for the Second Coming so we can finally get out of this mess!
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Rastus,
I didn't mean to imply that we could be come oil independent. But as you point out we should become more effecient in our use and by the things I mentioned above we would certainly be far less dependent on others.
Have a Blessed Easter. He true is the reason. BTW our local schools had neither Good Friday or this coming Monday off!
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Rastus,
I didn't mean to imply that we could be come oil independent. But as you point out we should become more effecient in our use and by the things I mentioned above we would certainly be far less dependent on others.
Have a Blessed Easter. He true is the reason. BTW our local schools had neither Good Friday or this coming Monday off!
I did not think that you implied that...I was just in a hurry and wanted to bring up the hopelessness of what we are in. My apologies for being carelss.
We homeschool...so the boys are off! I, on the other hand, have to be at work. Sure was nice when the entire country was in sync....something the youngsters don't see to know and appreciate.
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My goodness, no need to appologize! We aren't (at least I'm not) that formal or easily offended!
Yeah, remember when you could count on ALL schools being out on certain holidays? We would all meet at the local sand lot (actually the Presby church lot) and play ball, or sled ride or something.
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My goodness, no need to appologize! We aren't (at least I'm not) that formal or easily offended!
Yeah, remember when you could count on ALL schools being out on certain holidays? We would all meet at the local sand lot (actually the Presby church lot) and play ball, or sled ride or something.
Yes, and the kids you went to school with, you saw in Sunday school.
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Yes, and the kids you went to school with, you saw in Sunday school.
And confimation class. Our Pastor (Dr Kennedy RIP), could throw a piece of chalk with deadly accuracy at a 'way word' student!
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We used to steal cigarettes and beer and go out in the woods and smoke and drink. We would also try and coax a girl or two to join us. We were so stupid... :-[
I miss that :'(
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There is more oil and gas available but is expensive and would take a long time to get online.
Bottom line is the peak of supply has been met and supply is decreasing and demand increasing.
Natural gas will end from Canada in 8-10 years.
Major change in life style will happen.
Odds are the government will make it worse.
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There is more oil and gas available but is expensive and would take a long time to get online.
Bottom line is the peak of supply has been met and supply is decreasing and demand increasing.
Natural gas will end from Canada in 8-10 years.
Major change in life style will happen.
Odds are the government will make it worse.
Sorry,
I don't subscribe to 'peak oil'.
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........I don't subscribe to 'peak oil'.
You probably should subscibe to it kewl cat. The key is to look at it by producing basin then basins within a producing entity (or country). The thing that kicked us out a bit on the curve was the deep-water Gulf of Mexico that was unobtainable by early technology when the "King Hubbert" curve was out. Also....those deepwater GOM reserves postponed the increase in oil prices by about 2-4 years. The reservoirs there are tremendously productive, requiring few wells and producing what is in the ground very quickly. The downside....they fall off after, say, 6-8 years, so there needs to be more development but the lead time can be 10 years.
For oil, reserves are somewhat lognormally related in a bbls/acre-ft relationship....just an inescapable physcial fact of life. Normal, uninterrupted production, after some time of sustainable rate, falls off in exponential, hyperbolic or harmonic declines. No doubt at some point that shale oil will provide oil for us....but at a seriously high price. We'lll need to develop coal & nuclear power in the short term to keep us warm at an affordable price....the government needs to invest in research for fusion power, efficient solar cells (something better than 14-28% and that last more then 8-11 years at 2x the cost of grid electricity)...it's gonna take a huge effort to do this...something like the WWII A-bomb project. Oh yeah, ethanol...without subsidies...still can't compete with crude oil and gasoline....do ya'll not think that if more money could be made on methanol the oil companies wouldn't be selling it? Buying a farm versus putting down a million dollar plus well every 40 acres or so and paying the landowner a couple of hundred a year per acre plus the 20% off the top to the royalty owner...well you should get the picture the oil companies could buy the farms to produce ethanol if it were truly a going concern.
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I wished I was smart enough to jump in here with something intelligent to say..
but............ :'( I 'm not! )
I have read and reread this thread and I am trying so hard to understand it all...................
but actually after reading it at least 3 times.. very slowly and in detail.. ........................
(http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/iamsolost.gif)
And all of it has given me a headache. :P
I'm going to go finish the laundry.. take a shower and grab my book for awhile and read.
I'll catch you all on the flip side tomorrow.. g'night..
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/snoozealarm.gif)
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I'm with you Marshal'ette. I'm a big Ethanol fan, though. You say you can run a car on it too?? Holy Cow!! Wonder if cars get hangovers ? Welll, back to guns.
Mac.
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You probably should subscibe to it kewl cat. The key is to look at it by producing basin then basins within a producing entity (or country). The thing that kicked us out a bit on the curve was the deep-water Gulf of Mexico that was unobtainable by early technology when the "King Hubbert" curve was out. Also....those deepwater GOM reserves postponed the increase in oil prices by about 2-4 years. The reservoirs there are tremendously productive, requiring few wells and producing what is in the ground very quickly. The downside....they fall off after, say, 6-8 years, so there needs to be more development but the lead time can be 10 years.
For oil, reserves are somewhat lognormally related in a bbls/acre-ft relationship....just an inescapable physcial fact of life. Normal, uninterrupted production, after some time of sustainable rate, falls off in exponential, hyperbolic or harmonic declines. No doubt at some point that shale oil will provide oil for us....but at a seriously high price. We'lll need to develop coal & nuclear power in the short term to keep us warm at an affordable price....the government needs to invest in research for fusion power, efficient solar cells (something better than 14-28% and that last more then 8-11 years at 2x the cost of grid electricity)...it's gonna take a huge effort to do this...something like the WWII A-bomb project. Oh yeah, ethanol...without subsidies...still can't compete with crude oil and gasoline....do ya'll not think that if more money could be made on methanol the oil companies wouldn't be selling it? Buying a farm versus putting down a million dollar plus well every 40 acres or so and paying the landowner a couple of hundred a year per acre plus the 20% off the top to the royalty owner...well you should get the picture the oil companies could buy the farms to produce ethanol if it were truly a going concern.
Rastus,
I agree with you on alternatives and especially ethanol (just drives up the cost of corn) but I'm not convinced on Peak.
Yes it was easier to get in the past BUT that was pretty much all the technology we had and in comparison the cost wasn't really much different than the new technologies used today.
What I have read about shale oils says it would cost 50 - 70 bbl to get it to market. That would be a bargain in todays market.
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/publications/Pubs-NPR/40010-373.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_economics (yeah, it's Wiki but Wiki ain't all bad)
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I wished I was smart enough to jump in here with something intelligent to say..
but............ :'( I 'm not! )
I have read and reread this thread and I am trying so hard to understand it all...................
but actually after reading it at least 3 times.. very slowly and in detail.. ........................
(http://www.rightnation.us/forums/style_emoticons/default/iamsolost.gif)
And all of it has given me a headache. :P
I'm going to go finish the laundry.. take a shower and grab my book for awhile and read.
I'll catch you all on the flip side tomorrow.. g'night..
(http://www.cascity.com/howard/animations/snoozealarm.gif)
Sorry Sweetheart, your 'just a dumb blond' ploy isn't gonna cut it. You may not be up to speed on this subject (neither am I really) but dumb you ain't!!
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M'ette and DDMack..Can I sit next to you guys ???
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Yes you sure can... :)
It will make me feel much better to have company.
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Bring olives or mixer, please. Mac.
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Well.. I have in my sack,, ( when I have to set on the sidelines and only listen) some cheese dip, nachos, summer sausage, beer, Rum, lemons. I guess I can add some olives, vermouth and gin. * I may need to buy a bigger sack*
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Not you, dear. Outlaw could bring olives (please). I have a Class III hitch on the Jeep, so I'll bring the tank of Ethanol. You can just referee the next round of insight on the oil price crisis.
I am genuinely astounded by the scope of real knowledge and experience y'all have to share. What I could understand makes sense.
Thanks, Mac.
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Not you, dear. Outlaw could bring olives (please). I have a Class III hitch on the Jeep, so I'll bring the tank of Ethanol. You can just referee the next round of insight on the oil price crisis.
I am genuinely astounded by the scope of real knowledge and experience y'all have to share. What I could understand makes sense.
Thanks, Mac.
I'm with these guy's (ans M'ette) in the listen and learn seats. Mac, I got paper cups. ;D
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Shale Oil
Our shale oil deposits alone can PRODUCE over 3x the known oil in Saudi Arabia with current technology. If we got 20% of our current oil usage from this one resource, it would last over 400 years. Selling point to make PROFIT is 35 to 54 dollars a barrel.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/energy/article/0,2777,DRMN_23914_4744357,00.html
Oil shale costs (35 - 54 a barrel)
http://www.unconventionalfuels.org/publications/factsheets/Oil_Shale_Economics_Fact_Sheet.pdf
Oil shale fact sheet
http://www.unconventionalfuels.org/overviewfuels.html
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While that would finally get "our interests" out of the Land of Sand, it locks in the continuation of what we think of as high gas prices. Gingrich is right to suggest large government prizes for the development of the first marketable 100 mpg car. When I was a pup, we had 90cc Honda Super Hawks that would get that kind of mileage, but we also had GTOs and Super Sports that you could afford to drive, even at 12 mpg.. Hate that our kids will miss that.
If we (the oil companies) move forward on the shale project, OPEC would drop the price of crude to make it financially unsound to not buy theirs. The decision then would be whether it is better to look at it as a profit/loss issue, or freedom/independence issue. I say let's get off the hook.
Mac.
And cheaper ammo!!
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While that would finally get "our interests" out of the Land of Sand, it locks in the continuation of what we think of as high gas prices. Gingrich is right to suggest large government prizes for the development of the first marketable 100 mpg car. When I was a pup, we had 90cc Honda Super Hawks that would get that kind of mileage, but we also had GTOs and Super Sports that you could afford to drive, even at 12 mpg.. Hate that our kids will miss that.
If we (the oil companies) move forward on the shale project, OPEC would drop the price of crude to make it financially unsound to not buy theirs. The decision then would be whether it is better to look at it as a profit/loss issue, or freedom/independence issue. I say let's get off the hook.Mac.
And cheaper ammo!!
Amen to that statement. It would have a duel benefit of lowering foreign oil cost and profit as well as making us less dependent.
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Kewl kat...I looked at that post link. I would have to review their work thoroughly. For me, I saw insufficient data or citations to confirm the claims made. Legally, on a professional engineering basis, I have no cause to question their statements.
For other projects I know of (and there are hundreds) that are being offered to and requesting funding from Wall Street or whoever they can suck in, I would say "run Gump run". There are lots of unscrupulous people out there who are hawking "plays" or "projects" that don't have enough gas or oil in them to ever pay out...some of the front guys may be lawyers. There are people who put together lease positions at a few dollars an acre, then turn those acres (5,000 to 100,000 range blocks usually) by promoting them as a resource for hundreds or, in the case I'm thinking of, $4,000 and acre for about 20,000 acres. $4,000 an acre asked...settle for 2,500 to 3,500 and paid maybe $200 an acre....and the guys aren't engineers how could they know there wasn't enough gas/oil there to make money?????
So....the super-intelligent, know-it-all, I-am-god, MBA's get snookered by some slick front men and slugs get rich. Then the MBA's defense is 1) I'm not an engineer and 2) they had a study by an "engineer" (yeah, right). Insufficient defense, I'd say...don't be cheap hire your own engineer at 1/10 to 1/1000 your Investment Banker MBA payoff. Oh yeah, there may be another financial crash on the way somewhere down the road if many of the projects get funded.
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Rastus,
I put more links in a later post.
Most of this is from the government but it seems to be backed up pretty well. Shell oil is working on an 'in situ' retorting process that seems to be promising.
In any case at current prices you can fund a lot off reasearch and still undercut market prices.
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I JUST got an email about Canadian Oil Sands and what a great opportunity it will be. Rastus, you nailed that one.
Mac.
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Mac, Rastus,
There will always be scam artists, that doesn't mean that the ACTUAL product is a scam, just their deal.
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Oh, no, I got that. Just interesting timing. Mac.
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Oh, no, I got that. Just interesting timing. Mac.
Maybe we should take it as a good sign. If the snake oil salesmen are out, maybe the real thing is not too far behind.
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Ad sent by email to ya, Haz.
Mac.
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The good thing about the snake oil salesman being out might mean the price of oil is going to collapse. Which...all in all...is a good thing for the country on an economic basis. I noticed that the last time in the 70's and 80's....
One thing is different this time....the dollar is not the international standard of currency for commodities it once was and this fact, will make bouncing back all the harder. In fact....kinda looks like someone wants to wipe out the middle class to me....but then maybe it's just skimming time for the fat cats (not you Hazcat!) to suck off some $$$$'s. I remember when construction workers could pay for a car in just over a quarter on their overtime (when it was available)....but then I think our tax burden was a lot less then...medicare was less, sales tax was less....etc.