The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Shotguns => Topic started by: bravo308 on November 13, 2007, 11:25:11 AM
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My home defense shotgun is a Remington 870 with pistol grips. I never see tactical training with this type of weapons system. Is there a reason?
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Strangely enough, there is a whole school of thought that the pistol-gripped shotgun is inferior to a more traditionally gripped gun. The thinking is that you give up very little by having a stocked gun vs. a gun with only a pistol grip.
That's probably truue, but I tend to be of the school of "whatever works." I'd also like to point out that I've shot 12-gauges fitted with the Knoxx Breachers Grip...
http://www.knoxx.com/products/BreachersGrip.php
...and it's amazing how much the Knoxx grip lowers recoil. You might want to give it a try. Me, I'm always on the verge of filling out the paperwork and ponying up the money for one of these little guys built on an 870:
http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php
Put a Breachers Grip on it and keep it by my bed!
Michael B, pining for an Ithaca Auto & Burglar
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I'll agree with MB and say it is what ever works for you. For what it is worth my preference is for a traditional stock. For me it works better in just every postition, especially the "low ready".
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Strangely enough, there is a whole school of thought that the pistol-gripped shotgun is inferior to a more traditionally gripped gun. The thinking is that you give up very little by having a stocked gun vs. a gun with only a pistol grip.
I agree. After using several different pistol grips, I decided to never do that again. However, last night/early this morning I woke up to male voices at a very unusual hour for my part of town, under my bedroom window. Granted, this may have been due to being a very deep sleeper that wakes up to human voices instantly. Which, bothers my wife to no end, but I digress...
Anyway, I rediscovered the simple fact that the benefit of the pistol grip, IMHO, is that is shortens the gun and makes it more compact. Obvious, I know, but it really helps if you don't want the extra 6-8 inches of gun to beat you around the corner. That said, they hurt like the dickens when you use the Mossberg-supplied grip on the 20 inch Model 500. And on a Remington 870 with a pistol grip stock. After seeing the Knoxx folder stock a few years ago, I serioulsy though about getting one. Now, I may have to.
If you can reduce the punishment to your hand, then I'd definitely go for it. Thanks MB.
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M.B.
Are you also talking about tactical stocks with pistol grip? If so, I must disagree. I've experienced much better control in tactical situations using such a stock.
(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/Long%20Guns/Guns005.jpg)
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Nope...just pistol grips, sans stock...
mb
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My home defense shotgun is a Remington 870 with pistol grips. I never see tactical training with this type of weapons system. Is there a reason?
Here's one: http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=11 scroll down the page.
Another: http://www.gunsite.com/courses/shotgun.html
Another: http://www.defense-training.com/courses/shotgun.html
One more: http://www.tdiohio.com/shotgun.htm
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Strangely enough, there is a whole school of thought that the pistol-gripped shotgun is inferior to a more traditionally gripped gun. The thinking is that you give up very little by having a stocked gun vs. a gun with only a pistol grip.
That's probably truue, but I tend to be of the school of "whatever works." I'd also like to point out that I've shot 12-gauges fitted with the Knoxx Breachers Grip...
http://www.knoxx.com/products/BreachersGrip.php
...and it's amazing how much the Knoxx grip lowers recoil. You might want to give it a try. Me, I'm always on the verge of filling out the paperwork and ponying up the money for one of these little guys built on an 870:
http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php
Put a Breachers Grip on it and keep it by my bed!
Michael B, pining for an Ithaca Auto & Burglar
Now that's a must have!
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Technically, with equal length barrels, there is no significant difference in forward of the body length if holding the shotgun in a low ready position, or in the firing position. There is a significant disadvantage to a pistol grip only, when using one hand, such as opening a door with your weakhand, it puts a lot of pressure on the wrist to hold it up in any kind of ready position, and lord help you if you press the trigger in this position. A full or short stocked gun can be pulled back against your ribs and pinched to your side with the strong elbow, yet still in ready to low ready position with a firing grip.
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If you are silly enough (or desperate enough) to go running through the house with your shotgun you should maintain an underarm grip to shorten the length and MAINTAIN CONTROL. Putting a full length in your hands reduces control, both in recoil and in movement. Try this, hold your shotty in both hands (UNLOADED with a block in the chamber, safety first) and have a friend try to take it as you come around a corner, then try it with a full stock in the underarm assault position and see which is better.
P.S. the full stock with pistol grip is pretty bad for the U.A.P. too
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That's probably truue, but I tend to be of the school of "whatever works." I'd also like to point out that I've shot 12-gauges fitted with the Knoxx Breachers Grip...
http://www.knoxx.com/products/BreachersGrip.php
...and it's amazing how much the Knoxx grip lowers recoil. You might want to give it a try.
I've been toying with the Knoxx collapsible stock - this introduces a whole new set of ideas for my Mossy 590.
Me, I'm always on the verge of filling out the paperwork and ponying up the money for one of these little guys built on an 870:
http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php
Put a Breachers Grip on it and keep it by my bed!
Michael B, pining for an Ithaca Auto & Burglar
Might work for home invaders, with the 870 you still get that satisfying ratchet sound as you rack the slide. Better hope you don't get swarmed by zombies tho, three in mag, one in the chamber doesn't go to far.
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I'm not sure of the technology behind the knoxx breacher, etc, but those videos were pretty cheesy. That female officer shooting the high powered rifle with the 10 inch scope eye relief :P or some of those guys probably firing birdshot...I don't know. One member here says it works, and from the looks of it, it seems similar to the Jati sub gun which...well..never mind...
I believe it works-I'm guessing the grip recoils under some type of spring tension to reduce felt recoil-which is good.
That being said compared to other shotguns inside of the house-at room distances, where clearence can be an issue and a traditional stock with a rubber buttplate could snag...? Might be a good choice but I think at distances outside of the house a traditional stock would be better, YMMV...
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I wouldn't know if there's ay formal Tactical training on pistol gripped shotgun. But I've got a Mossberg 590 with a Speedfeed Bird'shead/Witness protection style grip, and I really love it.
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Heard from Mark Serbu, and there's a 870 Super Shorty in my future!
I plan to do a full-sale test for DOWN RANGE with it, shooting it against my other 12 gauge defense shotguns and see what happens. I'll also see if I can round up a Breachers Grip...maybe I can get that woman from the video...
Michael B
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I have only fired a couple of rounds out of a PG only stock. That was enuff to know I don't want to do it anymore.
Over the years at our local range I have seen a number of people practicing with PG stocks. They seem to do a lot of missing. Left, right, low, high, you name it I've seen it. To be used effectively I assume there is a special technique and most people don't know it!
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Found this this morning. http://www.remington.com/tactical/tactical_shotguns.asp Time to start practicing delayed gratification again...
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You are right , the technique is close in and out to 20 feet IMHO, close quarters as in homes boats etc.
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You know, I have another one of my apparently endless supply of stupid ideas. I'm goign to be talking to Bill Murphy next week...I believe he is the single best shotgun instructor in the country. I've been through his 260 shotgun class at GUNSITE. I am going to ask Bill — nicely — if he could come up with a 1-day class, or at least the curriculum for such, using the pistol grip-ONLY shotgun.
I'll let you know what Bill says.
Michael B
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I want a super shorty for chirstmas :D
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I have a Moss 500 with foward and rear grips, its my back-up to a Glock. I think the only downfall in close-range self-defense is the inability to use the buttstock as a weapon. It took some practice but i can be very accurate with quick firing at tactical ranges. The foward grip helps me with the recoil as much as anything. Wrist pain for a week after a day of shooting made me try the front grip. My load consists of 00, Slug, 00, Slug,........ If that doesnt work, I'M RUNNING!
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I have modified my 870 18" with an adjustable AR style pistol grip stock. I also put scattergun technology ghost rings and a surefire forend. I feel this style of stock reduces muzzle flip and the pistol grip, along with the ghost rings , allows me to get back on target quickly. I shoot 00 buck, 8 shot, and slugs with it when I train. Usually I shoot between 30-50 rounds and with regular loads do not feel sore afterwards. Remington reduced recoil loads are better to shoot but are becoming very pricey compared to 8 shot at $4.50 a box of 25. Also I feel the pistol grip is easier to control the gun when moving around. It is much easier to get a firm grip when pointing the muzzle down and I feel it would be much harder to wrestle away from me. That's my opinion and I would not use anything else for my house.
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Greetings to all, I'm new here.. but not new to weapons of all sorts and to shooting/carrying firearms
Definitely a big thumbs-down to the pistol grip only idea
But the folder stock with pistol grip gives you options. I can also endure standard stocks on a shotgun but I personally shoot better with a pistol grip folder..
My latest shottie is an FN SLP MK1 which has a synthetic, standard stock.. and it's worth having to use this stock on the gun because this FN shotgun is so wonderful in many other ways
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I have a plain jane Winchester 1300 pistol grip. holds 9 rounds. But I would like that breacher MB spot lighted. ;)