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Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Dirty Bob on October 12, 2018, 11:38:55 PM

Title: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 12, 2018, 11:38:55 PM
I'm saving for a Ruger Charger, because I saw a photo online of one in a PMACA chassis, which allows use of an AR pistol grip and buffer tube. Here's what I'm planning:

Ruger Charger with threaded barrel
PMACA Light Weight Chassis (12 ounces)
Magpul K2 grip
KAK buffer tube and Shockwave Blade arm brace
Hera SFU (Stock Folding Unit)
Long rail (maybe Leapers UTG Scout Rail) anchored in front with piece of steel, with tapped hole, dovetailed into top of barrel
Iron sights -- maybe 45 deg. offset sights
Optic and mount -- perhaps a Leupold compact low-magnification variable

Does this sound reasonable? I'm intending it as a very compact substitute for a 10/22...maybe as a travel companion that can ride in a smallish bag. My job sometimes takes me out in the sticks -- and sometimes to other parts of Texas -- by myself for meetings, and a pseudo-carbine and a few magazines would be a comforting addition to a small handgun.

I don't have any experience with the Charger, and I wonder if a .22LR from a 10" barrel will be a good compromise between the performance of a rifle and that of a much smaller handgun? I want to try it at paper targets out to 100 yards or so. Is the Charger up to that?

Thanks in advance,
Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 13, 2018, 02:44:14 PM
DB... not an answer, but an alternate suggestion... for $200 you can get a PSA 10.5" 5.56 complete upper with front sight base... add a $30 NCStar carry handle sight, run the rear sight down tight, and adjust elevation with the front sight... a PSA complete pistol lower for $100, and switch out the buffer tube with a KAK tube for the SB-15 brace, but don't use a brace or blade, just stick a rubber end cap on.... you will end up with one for about $360 less transfer

as a design exercise I built a 7.5" PSA upper with a LAW folding stock adapter and used the pistol buffer tube that came with the lower.... very compact, but even with a flash can the blast was considerable... I perceive the solid buffer tube to be better
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 15, 2018, 11:07:43 PM
les, that's an awesome suggestion!

My first build was an Aero Precision lower (bought from a friend a few weeks before the 2016 election: my first stripped lower). I built it with a PSA parts kit, which included a KAK buffer tube and Shockwave Blade. I added a polished/plated trigger group for $30 on sale. I also bought a complete pistol upper with a 10.5" barrel from PSA and mounted a Magpul folding rear to go with the A2 front sight/gas block. It's really a great pistol and is about six feet away from me as a write this. Its only shortcomings: (1) while very compact, it still requires a fairly large bag for carry, (2) 5.56mm ammo prices limit how much I can shoot, and (3) this beast is LOUD!

(http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33291.0;attach=11317;image)

I want to build a pistol that can reach out to 100 yards or so, can be carried around in a fairly small bag, is cheap enough to feed that I can afford to shoot it frequently, and is quiet enough that I can shoot at  indoor ranges, as well as at my club before or after work without alarming neighbors in a subdivision that was recently built not too far away.

I like the idea of a folder that doesn't have a buffer running back and forth through it. The Hera SFU is solid, but that isn't a problem with a Charger receiver. It could be fired folded or open with no problem.

Another bonus of the .22 LR Charger is that non-enthusiasts like my wife aren't intimidated by .22 firearms. She doesn't like the noise of the AR pistol in 5.56mm, nor the feeling of the buffer running back and forth though the buffer tube against her cheek.

I'm wanting to get in much more practice than I've been getting, and I think I can do it with a .22 LR. I also have a lot of respect for the .22: if I had to defend myself out in the sticks somewhere with it, the Charger would be much better than nothing, and a good backup to my laser-gripped .357 Ruger (aging eyes make optics and lasers very attractive). I'm hoping just its appearance might cause someone to re-think their choices.

I've had a few run-ins with the dregs of humanity during my life and have drawn a gun twice, but never been forced to fire it. I'm hoping to avoid all future trouble, but I believe in the Boy Scout Motto.

Thanks again for a great suggestion. You are right: AR pistols rock!

Dirty Bob (Eagle Scout, 1980)
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 16, 2018, 10:32:28 PM
Bob... I toyed with the idea of a Charger (for the car) for the same reasons, though I was leaning to a forward grip and no brace or blade... what we used to call the Taco hold for metallic silhouette when shooting a TC Contender standing... it was awkward to hold the fore grip horizontal and pistol grip vertical, but a slanted "pistol legal" grip might  just work....I've got some experience with the 10/22 platform and a  9" .22lr upper for the AR that would probably have been the test bed....I have a spare etched prism sight that would work ... I envisioned the project to indeed be a low recoil, low noise platform capable of immediate action in close quarters to the car, and with a rest (monopod slanted front grip), capable of fairly precise shots....it was cheaper for me to just use the 5.56 platform I described.... good luck on your project, please keep us informed
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 18, 2018, 09:46:12 PM
Thanks Les!

Lots of good ideas and a different perspective. As funds are short, I'll have to build this like Johnny Cash sang about a different project: "One piece at a time..."

I'll probably start with the Charger, the lightweight chassis, and a simple buffer tube -- Brownells sells a basic one for $19 -- wrapped in paracord with a crutch tip on the end. I like the way "Major Pandemic" mods A2 pistol grips: he shortens and stipples them, cuts slots and does a paracord "backstrap." There's a pic of one in this article: Favorite MajorPandemic.com AR15 Parts (http://www.majorpandemic.com/2016/12/favorite-majorpandemiccom-ar15-parts.html). I'll add the optic and mount as soon as I can. No folding mechanism, fancy pistol grips, or muzzle devices until later. This will give me a fairly compact carbine substitute, and I can add other parts later.

My big reason for sticking with the .22 is that I want to practice a lot more, and carrying a weird pistol like this lets me do it more often. Unlike some folks, I won't leave a gun unattended in a car for long periods of time -- especially at night. That's why the obsession with small size: I want a bag that doesn't look like anything special for carrying to and from the car. Unfortunately, a 10/22 in any bag -- even a "covert" bag -- is still a pretty large package.

I do already have a compact AR for car carry and defense. If we start getting more frequent Antifa and other street violence and civil unrest, I'll have it with me on a regular basis. I hope we don't come to that, but I don't want to go the way of Reginald Denny (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Reginald_Denny).

(http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19.0;attach=11301;image)

I'm including a pic of the table I used to help me decide what route to take. Part of the fun of any build is deciding on parts, shopping and planning.

(http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33291.0;attach=11327)

All my best,
Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on October 19, 2018, 01:01:45 AM
This was the first thing I thought of when I read about shortening the pistol grip. This was too short to work well and it didn't need to be that way.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: robert69 on October 19, 2018, 08:33:27 AM
I have a S&W 15-22 out of their performance shop, and if you priced one of these out, it comes close to what you want.  It comes with a 16" barrel, flat top, and iron sights, adjustable stock.
Just a suggestion. They have a less costly version, around $500. The only difference is the match chamber.
All I positively know is my grandkids really like to shoot it, especially when I supply the ammo. I have 2 10-22's, one a take down, but they always ask for the S&W. Just buy lots of ammo. 
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 20, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
Robert69: It's a good suggestion. I've never even handled an M&P 15-22. It has a polymer upper and lower, right? That would work, and it keeps weight down.

I'm leaning more toward a pistol, however. I wish S&W offered a pistol version of their 15-22: I bet they'd sell a ton of them! If I go for an AR in .22LR, I'll probably build a pistol upper and add a dedicated lower later. One of my few reservations is the mags. I don't have any experience with Black Dog mags, nor do I own any.

Still torn, but I keep looking at the Charger, in part because it uses the great Ruger .22 mags, and I'm very familiar with the 10/22 system in general. They're such a solid little gun that just works really well.

All for now,
Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 20, 2018, 10:04:54 PM
Bob... I think your decision to stay with the 10/22 magazine is a good one... I have a 16" and 9" CMMG uppers for use with a the CMMG Atchison style conversion unit for an AR... I've used Brownell, Black Dog, CMMG, and probably the best is the SW15-22 with the Boonie Packer Better Mag adapter for the 15-22 mags that allows the bolt hold open to work...I think the rotary 10/22 mag is the way to go, but the 15-22 mag is a good second.... shot a friends Charger Friday using just the bi pod attachment area as a fore grip, and with a cheap dot, was able to keep a 15 round mag in the "A" zone of a USPSA target at 25 yd in about as quick as I could pull the trigger with an acceptable sight picture...

I think I'll order a MagPul angled fore grip and stick it on the 9" AR and see how it handles as a Taco hold pistol...keep us in the loop... regards Les L747
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 21, 2018, 09:03:35 PM
Gosh, Les, I'm sorry to hear that AR-15 mags in .22LR aren't all that and a bag of chips.

I really love the AR platform and the idea of a .22LR AR is super appealing to me as a practice tool, and for the idea of carrying a .22LR upper, a few mags, and a brick of good ammo as a fantastic AR accessory.

Could you share a little more about the mags? I'd heard mixed things about the Black Dog mags, but I figured they probably worked well enough for small game harvesting and practice. Is that not the case?

Thanks so much. I've gotten some really good ideas from this discussion.

Regards,
Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 22, 2018, 11:02:31 PM
Bob... I'm primarily a competition oriented shooter, and for about 3 years we held a monthly 3 gun match that used .22lr for the long gun, with center fire pistol and shotgun... that way we could shoot some light weight steel targets originally designed for the Sportman's Team Challenge, and be shot on a range designed for pistol use

my CMMG conversion unit  started with the drop in chamber insert for a 5.56 barrel, and a couple thousand rounds were shot in  practice for the Ft Benning 3 gun matches... after a couple of years, I opted for the dedicated CMMG barrel to improve the accuracy...when the competition shooting began, the overlooked problems with the conversion unit and magazines showed up... a broken extractor was replaced with a TACCOM unit, as was the recoil spring...without a dedicated bolt hold open, the follower of the Black Dog, CMMG OEM, and Brownells mags would catch the bolt for a last round hold open, and this started causing problems... the best of those magazines for me were the X Form from Black Dog (edited) with the metal feed lips...

I noticed that friends shooting the SW 15-22's did not seem to have the magazine related problems that I incurred, so I tried one of their mags, and it shot well, just rocked a little in the mag well... when I added the Boonie Packer Better Mag adapter to the mag well, the rocking stopped, and it has a linkage that allows the follower to raise the last round bolt hold open on the AR lower... if you load individual rounds, and release the follower to seat each cartridge, the noses will alternate in the mag... since using that technique, my 15-22 mags have been very good performers...the 15-22 mags use a controlled follower with a fan fold spring, while some of the others use a coil spring that allows more tilt to the followers

from 95-99 I shot the STC with a custom 10/22 which was limited to 10 rounds only in a magazine... the rotary magazine in that configuration was flawless for a bunch of shots... and I learned a lot about 10/22 triggers.. that is why I made the comment about the 10/22 rotary mags vs. Atchisson style mags.... if you have any Steel Challenge competition in your area, you might ask around about the reliability of the .22lr long guns... regards

I have a takeoff 10/22 barrel that may get chopped if I want less than 10", but I envision a Charger that looks like a VZ61 Skorpion in .22lr with angled fore grip and 25 round mags for about $325... I think you may have started me on my next project... regards
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 23, 2018, 11:29:04 AM
Bob... I was wrong on the metal topped magazines.. they are the X Form, from BlackDog that worked the best of the non 15-22 mags... picked up a take down Charger to play with... a Vortex Spitfire gives very good eye relief for a two hand taco hold
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 24, 2018, 09:41:28 PM
Thank you, Les! 
I really want to try building a .22LR AR upper sometime, though it obviously can be frustrating. Thank you for spelling out what worked and what didn't.

At least for now, I think I'm much better off with a Charger project. I'm still short of funds, but here's a build list for a simple Charger pistol for offhand shooting:

Simple Charger Build
Total: $472

Since the buffer tube's empty, and the back of the chassis should be closed, I can put a lightweight cleaning kit in there.

All in all, this looks like a light, simple setup that should be quick, yet it should provide good, challenging  practice out to 100 yards or so. I will want to mount an optic as soon as funds permit.

You want it a Charger that looks like a Scorpion? I would love for this project to look like a North Vietnamese K-50M subgun. It was their version of the Soviet SMGs of WWII. It's based on the Chinese Type 50, which was itself a Chinese version of the Soviet PPSh-41. Compared to the PPSh-41 and the Type 50, the K-50M had its barrel cooling sleeve trimmed to three inches, and a front sight similar to that of the French MAT-49 SMG was added to the barrel. The Vietnamese also added a pistol grip and a sliding wire stock, which were also inspired by the French MAT-49. The K-50M was 1/2 kg. lighter than the original PPSh-41. It used a 35-round, curved stick magazine.

You can see a photo at: http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/06/K50M2-1.jpg

The sliding braces by SB Tactical have been calling me, and I've even been thinking about making a wood grip to mimic the K-50M. I've got it bad!

All my best,
Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 24, 2018, 10:15:36 PM
Bob...check you length of pull for the crutch tip only.... I use the 8 1/2" KAK SB15 tubes on my ARs with just a furniture tip and get nose to charging handle if I square up to the target... unless the chassis for the Charger is extended more than an AR, I think you will want a longer tube
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on October 24, 2018, 10:16:56 PM
Don't forget to buy a crush washer or peel washer for the flash hider so you can clock it. If you aren't shooting prone in the dust you may be able to find an A1 flash hider cheaper. Someone might even give you one for free. It only needs a split lock washer that's around $1.25. Most hardware stores would have one even cheaper if you don't care if it's parkerized. Crush washers are around 3 bucks and peel washers are around 5 bucks. Those prices are all from one site and will vary elsewhere. Crush washers are made for one time use only. If you want to put the flash hider on a different gun you'll need another washer. I save the layers I peel off of peel washers in case I want to switch flash hiders/muzzle brakes/comps again.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 24, 2018, 10:39:22 PM
Quote from: les snyder on October 24, 2018, 10:15:36 PM
Bob...check you length of pull for the crutch tip only.... I use the 8 1/2" KAK SB15 tubes on my ARs with just a furniture tip and get nose to charging handle if I square up to the target... unless the chassis for the Charger is extended more than an AR, I think you will want a longer tube
Good point! I'll have to check into that. I usually like the Shockwave Blade brace back a bit on the tube. I think I could use just about any tube, as long as it can't be used with rifle stock. With an A1 tube, I could drill out all the threads from the end and file the end flat, so it can't be used with a stock. I don't even own a rifle stock for an AR. The enlarged hole would be covered by the crutch tip.

Thank you also for the advice on the flash hider and washers. I don't think .22LR in a 10-inch barrel develops enough flash for the difference between A1 and A2 to really matter, including the dust issue. I'd also be open to the Ruger short flash hider, if I run across one at a good price, but I think an A1 is probably a great choice for me.

Thank you!
Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 25, 2018, 08:01:02 AM
Bob... the standard rifle length tube was too long for me, though worked better than the shorter carbine tube or pistol tube, although I use an A1 stock for my competition rifles...the bare tube gave a different cheek weld

if you run across a printable ATF letter regarding the current ruling on vertical fore grips, would you please comment on location... thanks... a vertical fore grip, on the slanted fore end of a Charger is not really vertical to the barrel
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on October 25, 2018, 06:12:00 PM
If it's beyond 45 degrees from the bore axis that would probably be considered vertical. It certainly wouldn't be horizontal at that point.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 25, 2018, 10:38:03 PM
Jumbo... thank you... I've seen a partial letter that states basically what you have said... I try to have actual copies in my gun case when shooting my AR and now Charger pistols... if you happen to run across an actual complete ATF letter, I would appreciate some guidance to its location... I've seen a partial, but I would like to have the actual signed letter
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on October 26, 2018, 12:07:23 AM
I haven't seen a letter on it, but have noticed that many of the angled foregrips for ARs and such are less than 45 degrees. Maybe 30 degrees, just going from memory, and should be okay on a pistol. If 45 degrees IS the magic number, and you ever come across an LEO who can't tell without a protractor if it's more than or less than 45 degrees, I think you'd be fairly well screwed.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: PegLeg45 on October 26, 2018, 08:59:44 AM
I've also seen videos and statements, as well as one letter sent to a lawyer and posted on his website stating that if the OAL is over 26" then you can use the VFG on a "pistol" because then it is a "firearm" I guess in the same manner they judge these new short barreled shotguns everyone is fawning over.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on October 26, 2018, 10:15:40 PM
If it's going to be over 26" you may as well have a 10/22 with a folding stock. Mine has a muzzle brake/compensator on it and with the stock folded measures 27" to the front of the front sight. The muzzle probably extends 1/8" past that, and it's a standard 18.5" barrel. It shortens the OAL by about 10", from the factory OAL of 37". Other folding stocks may be a little shorter than that. I had to get a pistol permit for my 10/22 because it's shorter than 30" with the stock folded. It's a stupid law we may only have here in Michigan. I got a pistol permit for a shotgun and a pellet gun the same day.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 28, 2018, 02:44:50 PM
I didn't find a document, but in the NFA forum on another site, someone reminded the group that an ATF opinion letter can be subject to change, as it is not actual regulation or law. My understanding has been what was stated above: if it's under 26", no vertical foregrip without a tax stamp. I've been looking at the Magpul AFG-2 (https://www.magpul.com/products/afg-2) angled foregrip with hand stop, but I may just put a small light on the bottom rail, instead.

I have no idea "how vertical is vertical," but I've seen those Magpul AFG-2s on a lot of builds. I like that a light or an AFG is more streamlined than any vertical grip and less likely to snag on things.

Regards,
Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Timothy on October 28, 2018, 03:13:59 PM
Not an SBR guy, not a black rifle guy, not a lawyer!

Regardless of what the interweb says, it’s our responsibility to do our due diligence and get the facts from the appropriate agencies!

Get the facts, cite the law, get the info from Unca Sam’s agency!
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on October 28, 2018, 03:58:19 PM
Quote from: Timothy on October 28, 2018, 03:13:59 PM
Not an SBR guy, not a black rifle guy, not a lawyer!

Regardless of what the interweb says, it’s our responsibility to do our due diligence and get the facts from the appropriate agencies!

Get the facts, cite the law, get the info from Unca Sam’s agency!
Really good advice.

I'd rather err on the side of caution. One potential source for a copy of an ATF letter is the manufacturer. When I bought my Shockwave Blade arm brace, it came with a letter from ATF.

Ultimately, however, Timothy is right: we're each responsible to get the facts ourselves.

Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on October 28, 2018, 04:59:45 PM
Quote from: Dirty Bob on October 28, 2018, 02:44:50 PM
I didn't find a document, but in the NFA forum on another site, someone reminded the group that an ATF opinion letter can be subject to change, as it is not actual regulation or law. My understanding has been what was stated above: if it's under 26", no vertical foregrip without a tax stamp. I've been looking at the Magpul AFG-2 (https://www.magpul.com/products/afg-2) angled foregrip with hand stop, but I may just put a small light on the bottom rail, instead.

I have no idea "how vertical is vertical," but I've seen those Magpul AFG-2s on a lot of builds. I like that a light or an AFG is more streamlined than any vertical grip and less likely to snag on things.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

Exactly. An opinion letter is one person's opinion. They may change their mind later, or their replacement may have a different opinion. And even if it's okay in their opinion, your local police, state's Attorney General, etc., may have different opinions, and let's face it, you don't have to do anything illegal to get arrested. As I already know from personal experience, many police officers don't have a clue about firearms laws. I would hate to sit in jail waiting for someone to figure out what the law actually says, or an official opinion if their is no law.

Of all the fore grips Magpul makes, the AFG-2 is the only one that comes in Foliage Green. The other 5 models come in 4 colors but that one comes in 5 colors.
Title: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Timothy on October 28, 2018, 05:09:54 PM
Quote from: jumbofrank on October 28, 2018, 04:59:45 PM
let's face it, you don't have to do anything illegal to get arrested.

BINGO!

Ignorance of the law isn’t a crime but can be costly to defend!
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 29, 2018, 07:58:26 AM
in playing with the Charger, the vertical fore grip problem is probably a non issue... it is very easy to point... I shoot my rifles and shotguns with three fingers of my support hand rolled under the fore end, thumb over, and index finger pointing at target... with the heavy circular inner reticle of the Vortex Spitfire, that I don't really care for as it is pretty "busy" with my eye close, actually works very well when extended... at 25yd it covers the A zone of a USPSA target, and at 12 yd it covers the head... double taps as soon as the dot comes on target... I had a new range officer watching me very closely...kindly old man that I am

I did replace the polymer trigger group with an older aluminum version spare I built for the STC...

Bob... if you get the Charger, you really need to modify the bolt release by removing the detent peak, so you can release the bolt catch by just retracting the bolt handle slightly... there are some pretty good vids on youtube...
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on October 30, 2018, 02:02:47 AM
I don't know how long YouTube has been around but I've had a computer a far less time than my 10/22, so I bought a quick-release bolt latch to replace the factory bolt lock, as I think it was called. I only saw them advertised in one catalog and it was only in stainless steel at the time. It looks out of place on my 40 year old Ruger, but not much shows so I don't worry about it. I may have tried modifying the old one and messing it up at some point.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 30, 2018, 08:10:47 AM
Jumbo... yeah... we had to do it the trial and trial again method in the mid 90's.... there weren't a lot of goodies for the 10/22 when building the STC guns in the mid 90s... I built my own fixture to re cut the hammer sear notch... you were able, however, to actually talk to people like Mr. Jim Clark Sr, Ken Tapp, and David Tubb  :)
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 31, 2018, 08:31:44 AM
continuing the saga...tried a new 25 round magazine yesterday, and had innumerable jams (failure to completely extract, leaving the spend case blocking the bolt moving forward)... 15 rounder works fine...

I've been using the "taco" hold with both hands extended forward, but fooling around with the somewhat extended wood touching my cheek, I get a very good eye box and dot stability... will give it a try at an outdoor range with some steel...
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on November 02, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
Sorry to hear about your range session, Les. Hope the next one is much better.

I'm amazed by your story of building your own fixture to cut a sear notch. You're really a walking gold mine of info on the 10/22 system.

Though I'm between academic contracts (my side job is as an adjunct faculty member at a college -- it pays for ammo and gun parts), I hope to line up the funds for a used Charger and a few parts. I really want to increase my range time opportunities, and a small .22 is my best ticket to that.

I'm sort of obsessed with compact and portable vehicle guns because of what happened to me in summer of 2007. I was stopped at a light, and a guy came up from behind me in the next lane. As he neared me, he swerved into my car, spinning me around completely. He'd gone into a diabetic coma while driving. The EMS that showed up said he would have been dead in minutes if he hadn't crashed into me and gotten an ambulance ride.

Anyway, through no fault of mine, I suddenly had to grab everything from the car -- in full view of two responding police officers -- before the tow truck guy drove it off to the body shop. It made me realize that anything I transport needs to be able to be removed from the vehicle in public, unless I'm headed to or from the range.

Another reason is that if things turn weird while I'm away from home, I want to put my firearm bag in my lap for driving. If I have to bail out of the vehicle suddenly, I want the gun to go with me. I'm OK with my laser gripped .357, but my aging eyes don't do well with regular open sights anymore. An optic on something that I can shoulder -- or at least hold in a cheek weld -- is much, much better. Even with "just" a .22LR, I can be dangerous out to 25 yards or more. My wife had a close call with a school shooter (his parents noticed the stolen guns, made a call, and he was arrested at school before he could start his rampage), and I've had multiple encounters with violence, including two attempted murders (I was the intended victim in one, a witness in the other). Very scary stuff can happen.

Wow, I really took it off the road and into the corn field! Sorry about that!

Les, I really value your knowledge. When I finally get my hands on a Charger, several of my choices will be thanks to you!

All for now,
Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: PegLeg45 on November 03, 2018, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: Dirty Bob on November 02, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
Wow, I really took it off the road and into the corn field! Sorry about that!

Les, I really value your knowledge. When I finally get my hands on a Charger, several of my choices will be thanks to you!

All for now,
Bob

Don't worry, you're fitting right in...... drifting is a special talent for this group!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Agree on this too.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Timothy on November 03, 2018, 11:14:39 AM
Getting the train to take a dirt road is the thrill of the drift!

LOL
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 03, 2018, 03:15:44 PM
I was going to say, just call us the drifters, but the name was already taken. Here's some music. How's that for thread drift?  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSddD6w5SKc
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Solus on November 03, 2018, 04:09:35 PM
Quote from: Dirty Bob on November 02, 2018, 10:36:29 PM

I'm amazed by your story of building your own fixture to cut a sear notch. You're really a walking gold mine of info on the 10/22 system.


As I have said before I am continually impressed with the degree knowledge I see here about firearms and other areas.  Truly impressive and Les sits up there with the best.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on November 03, 2018, 06:33:00 PM
guys, you are making me blush   ;D... most of what was done was out of necessity a by product of being old, very old...

Bob... I think the Charger, even in a pistol form would fill your requirements....I'd get the polymer stock basic pistol, and not a take down model to save weight... a 1x scope with illuminated reticle that is etched on the prism so you will have an aiming point even if the battery dies... modify the bolt release so it can be activated by slightly retracting the bolt handle....get carry magazines that are 100 percent reliable... after the years playing with a 10/22 I didn't realize the ejector is actually on the rear of the magazine lip and I'm working to get the 25 rounder to eject better.... with the scope mounted near the mag well, it works pretty good for a two hand extended hold, and a chin/cheek weld that is more accurate...(with your hand on the grip, bring your wrist area to your chin, makes for a very accurate hold for rapid fire)... good luck on your challenge

Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 03, 2018, 10:15:25 PM
"I'd get the polymer stock basic pistol, and not a take down model to save weight."
And a considerable amount of money. The takedown model is 35-36% more expensive. MSRP: $309.00 versus $419.00. You could use the $110 you save to put toward a scope.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on November 10, 2018, 10:35:06 PM
Hey, guys,

I've been mostly off-grid for several days, deaing with some urgent personal business. It feels good to be back home.

A quick update:
I'm in the process of selling an item to pay some expenses and start this project. Sucks having a semester without any classes, but such is the daredevil life of the part-time (hobbyist) adjunct faculty member. At least I'm in a great department, and we have campus carry.

I'm planning to start with the chassis, a buffer tube (paracord wrapped), a long rail, and a Burris 2x pistol scope that I already have, with the intention of replacing the optic later. I've always preferred the non-takedown version of the Charger, thinking that it's lighter, simpler, less expensive, and maybe more accurate.

Two I've been looking at are:
(1) Bushnell AK Optics, 30mm tube, 1-4x, illuminated 7.62x39mm etched reticle.
(2) Vortex Strike Eagle, 30mm tube, 1-6x, illuminated AR-BDC etched reticle.

With either, I'd have to figure out the distances for the BDC with my chosen .22LR ammo. I'm leaning toward the Vortex, on the basis of their customer service reputation. Their scope is also almost an inch shorter than the Bushnell, and almost an ounce lighter.

Ultimately, I'm really jonesing for an arm brace that's somewhat similar to the collapsible stock on a French MAT-49 SMG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAT-49).

(http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33291.0;attach=11353;image)
MAT-49 submachine gun - public domain image

I could make the "butt" narrow to allow it to be used as a brace with either arm. Being able to shoot one handed isn't a bad idea. Collapsibles on ARs aren't compact enough, because they have the buffer tube to mess with. I could use a very short "stub" tube for some storage -- probably of cleaning tools and supplies -- and have a really compact arm brace. When extended, a wire brace (of aluminum or steel -- probably steel) has a side benefit of improving the balance of a very muzzle-heavy firearm. Folding mechanisms add weight, but it's just behind the pistol grip, so I suspect balance isn't improved by much.

Maybe it's a crazy idea, but I just like that type of stock or brace, and if I make it myself, it cuts the overall cost big time.

All my best,
Dirty Bob


Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on November 12, 2018, 06:33:12 PM
Here’s a weird thought: why not make my own chassis? I might be able to put it together from aluminum sheet metal, primarily. It could be mainly a simple, open-topped channel of aluminum — similar to an AKM’s steel receiver — with a “trunnion” at the back end (aluminum) for strength and to attach my retractable arm brace. The pistol grip could also attach in AK fashion. I could use nylon rails inside the chassis for a close fit that doesn’t tear up the Charger receiver.

Attaching rails would be no big deal, and I can use the standard screw to install the receiver. This might just work.

Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 12, 2018, 06:40:22 PM
If you think you can do it I say go for it. What's the worst that could happen? It doesn't turn out as good as you thought it would?
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on November 12, 2018, 07:02:56 PM
Bob... not to stifle you initiative, and without going the SBR route even with a blade or brace, could something like the older Butler Creek folder for a 10/22 shortcut your design...I'm still leery about the ATF vacillating on their blade/brace decision...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ruger-10-22-Folding-Stainless-Steel-Stock-by-Butler-Creek-No-Reserve/233000552094?epid=2288813560&hash=item363fea469e:g:z3cAAOSwoVZb4Kx8:rk:1:pf:0
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 12, 2018, 10:38:34 PM
That's the stock (blued version) I have on my 10/22 that brings it down to approximately 27" when folded. And it's fully functional with the stock folded. I had an under-folding stock before that, with a 3rd arm on it that automatically opened and locked the butt at the same time as the stock. I couldn't open or close it with a higher capacity mag like a 30-rounder in place, so I dumped that stock for the Butler Creek side folder. It has a lock button on top of the hinge that you press to unlock. The whole rear of the stock actually moves down against spring pressure, not just the button. You can fling it open if you're in a hurry. It will lock into position when it's all the way back. To fold it just push the button and let it flop closed. It locks again when it's fully closed. There's a little bump on the right side of the butt-pad near the top that makes contact with the side of the stock when it's folded. Nothing seems to move when it's locked open or closed, but if it did the bump would keep the butt from rattling against the side of the stock when it's closed.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 12, 2018, 10:44:46 PM
I had to rotate this picture before the kink in my neck got any worse.

P.S. They also sold them pinned open during the Clinton Gun Ban that had nothing to do with crime. Just call him Crime Bill Clinton. Everything he did was a crime.

P.P.S. Looking at those prices I'm glad I got mine years and years before that nonsense started.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on November 13, 2018, 08:36:41 AM
Jumbo... I think that would be my choice also, and stick with a full length barrel... my 10 1/2 " AR "pistol" with fixed buffer tube is 28"
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 13, 2018, 05:07:49 PM
I have a 32" (exterior) Bob Allen soft gun case made just for 10/22s, and Mini-14s too I guess, with folding stocks. It's long enough for my 10/22 with the compensator on it. It's tan with a large mag pocket with a Velcro flap on the right side behind where the handle loops are sewn on. It says Ruger in front of the handles on that side, and has a metal loop on the end you can hang the case from. It's nowhere near as big and bulky as the Bob Allen Tactical Rifle Case. It's basically the same as a pistol rug but longer. Too bad they don't make them anymore. I really like that one.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on November 14, 2018, 07:47:54 PM
I think I've fixed the extraction problem with the Charger (when using the 25 round magazines)... I changed a couple of things, so not sure of which produced the actual fix, but most likely the addition of an extra power extractor spring, though I did trim the inside of the extractor so it would get a better bite on the case, and cleaned up the bottom edge so it better fit the cylindrical shape of the casing

secondly changed the angle of the ejector on the magazine slightly more open, and added a bearing (from empty 22 case per YouTube vid) to tighten up the follower to the actual follower spring mechanism...

shooting with fist (wrist) to chin gives amazingly quick shots with the Vortex Spitfire
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 14, 2018, 11:35:34 PM
I had an extraction problem on my 10/22 a long time ago. The problem was, when the rim blew out on some old ammo, it took the extractor, plunger and spring with it. That explained the failures to eject but it still worked most of the time. If I ever need a new spring again I'll be looking for an extra power one. I took another look at my gun case and it has a big metal loop on the front end and a little one at the back end. It would be easy to add a strap and sling it over my shoulder if I wanted to. All the talk about Chargers is getting more interested in them. That would be easier to carry.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on November 15, 2018, 08:42:29 AM
Jumbo... I'm having a lot more fun with mine than I thought I would...the young range officers stand behind me and watch the old guy shooting a pistol with it to his chin, one offering to show me how to hold it correctly....

finding a case will be the next challenge, though I manage with a Blackhawk SBR case from one of the prize tables in the distant past...
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on November 15, 2018, 11:12:01 PM
Quote from: les snyder on November 15, 2018, 08:42:29 AM
Jumbo... I'm having a lot more fun with mine than I thought I would...the young range officers stand behind me and watch the old guy shooting a pistol with it to his chin, one offering to show me how to hold it correctly....

finding a case will be the next challenge, though I manage with a Blackhawk SBR case from one of the prize tables in the distant past...

ROFL. Yeah, let him show you, since you've obviously never shot a pistol before. ;D If I had a charger I think I would keep it close to stock and slap an optic on it. I didn't give cases for one much thought.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on November 16, 2018, 08:11:07 AM
the Vortex Spitfire has a two concentric circles and and small center dot... I didn't really care for on the 9mm PCC has found a new home on the Charger...it works well with arms both extended and close... the reticle is etched on the prism, so is still visible black if the battery is dead
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on February 16, 2019, 08:59:45 PM
I'm finally back in the game! I had a semester without a class that made, so my hobby funds were close to zero. With a class this semester, I have some spending money again.  8)

I haven't found a used Charger at a good price anywhere around here, so I placed an order for a BRN-22 "10/22" receiver from Brownells. Since I would likely change a bunch of parts, paying a lot for a Charger didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I ordered it yesterday (Friday), and it's supposed to arrive on Tuesday at my FFL! I just need to pay their transfer fee and do the paperwork to take my receiver home.

I have a trigger group left over after buying a BX trigger group, so I purchased a parts kit that's mainly the bolt and pins. I still need a barrel and a few other parts. I'm thinking about the 6-inch barrel from WhistlePig. I hope to make my own chassis out of aluminum (looking like a metal channel with a trunnion at the rear). I have an AK grip I might be able to use. If this doesn't work out, I'll likely buy a chassis from PMACA, but making an "AK" chassis appeals to me.

To insure a snug fit without tearing up the receiver, I'm thinking of putting some nylon screws -- with the heads on the INSIDE -- at strategic points in the chassis. I can file the screw heads until I get a perfect fit between chassis and receiver. I'm still thinking about the best way to put it all together, but I like the idea of one bolt that goes through the stock and all the way through the receiver (replacing one pin) to solidly anchor the rear of the receiver, as described in Nathan Foster's article: Bedding the Ruger 10/22 (https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Bedding+the+Ruger+1022.html).

I've decided on the Shockwave Blade 2.0 for an arm brace. If I want to go really light, I could just wrap a pistol tube with paracord and use it for "cheeking" the gun. This has worked better than expected with other firearms.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to building a "Charger" with some Ruger parts, as well as other parts. It may take a little time, but it should be fun!

Bob

Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on February 16, 2019, 09:22:45 PM
The AZTP-22 receiver from Azimuth Technology looks like it would be a great starting point too if the budget allows it. I like the looks of their bolt with a round firing pin too, and it can be used in any 10/22.

https://www.azimuthprecision22.com/custom-products/receivers/

https://www.azimuthprecision22.com/custom-products/bolt-assemblies/
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Rastus on February 17, 2019, 09:23:43 AM
Quote from: Dirty Bob on February 16, 2019, 08:59:45 PM
<snip>
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to building a "Charger" with some Ruger parts, as well as other parts. It may take a little time, but it should be fun!

Bob

Make sure you post some pictures.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on February 17, 2019, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: Rastus on February 17, 2019, 09:23:43 AM
Make sure you post some pictures.

Absolutely! Without pics, it didn’t happen. :D

Regards,
Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Rastus on February 17, 2019, 01:25:13 PM
Yeah, I've wanted a Charger for a while.  For me, the utility would be putting it on a window sill to take down varmints....
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on February 17, 2019, 09:44:29 PM
Rastus... this is in reference to your question on an AR PCC... if your wife is recoil or muzzle blast shy, have her try a Charger... load it up with a 15 round mag (my 25 was not 100% without some work)...have her hold the pistol grip up with her hand to her chin, and support the fore end like a rifle... have her shoot a magazine through it as quickly as she can...a dot sight with reticle etched on the prism so it is visible without battery would make a good optic choice
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on February 19, 2019, 11:50:47 AM
I’m hoping to go to the fun store today to pick up my new receiver!

I’m still debating which barrel to buy for my new “Charger”...

I’ve decided on 1:16 rifling, for regular .22LR ammo. Although a 1:9 barrel for Aguila SSS 60-gr ammo might be fun, that stuff is expensive, and there’d be a risk of putting time and money into a disappointing firearm.

Two questions remain: barrel length, and which barrel to buy?

I’m very tempted by the WhistlePig 6-inch lightweight barrel with threaded muzzle. I like a flash suppressor to protect the crown of a firearm that’s going to be carried around. How much am I really losing out on with a barrel this short? A 10- or 12-inch barrel adds bulk, but I’d consider it if I thought performance would be significantly better.

I’m hoping to shoot this pistol with a brace — and probably a folding mechanism — at ranges from 25 out to at least 100 yards. No plans to hunt with it for now, beyond maybe a few squirrels.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on October 28, 2019, 11:32:54 AM
Dirty Bob... followed your suggestion and picked up a PMACA chassis for my Charger take down... just the rear section for a take down, and am using factory front end... with an AR rifle buffer tube with the rear nut machined off makes a light weight shoulder support, AR grip.... I tried a couple of off shore flip up sights on the factory rail, but my vision would not allow me to focus that close using the upper (distance ) lens of my bifocals... so ended up with the Vortex Spitfire which did not have a present home... the Spitfire is a prism sight with the reticle etched on the prism, so you still get a black aiming reticle even if the battery is dead... this is a really compact, quick handling, relative high volume, no recoil, limited noise format for someone that is recoil or noise shy....it really complements the Charger platform
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on December 09, 2019, 08:11:55 AM
the 10/22 saga continues... I stuck a 16" take down barrel on the PMACA chassis (added a Hogue over molded grip and RRA SOCOM slanted cheek rest stock, PMACA was out of the fore ends, so used the factory Charger...

shot a Steel Challenge match Saturday and it did well... used Ruger 15 round magazines...the SPITFIRE reticle is too "busy" so I switched to one of the SPARCII... the combo is very light weight, and seems to swing as well as the 10" .22lr upper on the SBR... the magazines are 100per cent so far, so will use it next week also....

a non take down in a regular PMACA chassis would make a really neat rifle for the SC competition... the rear grip gives you good trigger control, and allows you to really pull the stock into your shoulder... regards
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on December 18, 2019, 11:31:46 AM
the next generation... ok, so I really don't need another .22, but I have a rather linear thinking brain, so decided to build my concept light weight 10/22 for the Steel Challenge...ordered a Brownells BRN22 receiver with the integral Picatinny rail, and a 16" sport profile barrel...assembled it yesterday, and slipped it in for a trial fit with the PMACA light weight chassis... the bolt and BX trigger group is to be delivered tomorrow... with a short Magpul vertical grip on a short extension rail off the chassis, I think this will swing very well... (my SBR's 10" is very fast, but heavier than I would like) most likely the Vortex SPARC will be the dot of choice

season's greetings
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Rastus on December 18, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
Les, you like need to post a picture of this creation of yours.  It sounds interesting.
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Big Frank on December 19, 2019, 08:40:52 PM
^  wot hee sed
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work? -- PICS ADDED
Post by: Dirty Bob on August 04, 2020, 08:15:32 PM
I think I've finally gotten it the way I want it! I ran with a Primary Arms 3x prism sight for a while and liked it, but the red dot is smaller and lighter. The PA prism sight is working fine on a rifle. I found the UTG fixed "AR" front sight, and a Ruger folding rear (seems a little smaller than the MBUS).

If the red dot poops the bed, I'm thinking I can use the tube as a rough rear sight in a hurry, or deploy the Ruger rear if I have a few seconds. One reason I like the polymer rear sight over the
Magpul "Pro" steel one is not just price, but more importantly, it's a LOT faster into action. I need to open up the rear aperature a bit, though.

I also bought some glow-in-the-dark tape off Amazon. I plan to put a narrow strip up ramp of the front sight, sort of like Matt Bracken described in his Red Cliffs of Zerhounnovel. I have to get out to the range at dusk soon and find out how well it works. The tape glows for a long time. I've used it on the pulls of our ceiling fans, and you can see the faint green glow all night.

This little .22 is so compact with the Hera folder unit, that I think I'll be able to carry it in a book bag easily. It's fairly light as well. The Hera folder does not lock in the folded position: there's a detent, but a quick grab and movement can have it open pretty fast.

The Tandemkross mag bodies are great. It's just the clear shell: you use the guts of two 10-round Ruger mags, giving you a doubled magazine that's fairly compact. It's effectively the same as the factory mag, and they've been very reliable.

One final bit of work remains. I plan to "bed" the action into the chassis with a little JB Weld. I'll remove the trigger group, grease it up and put a little epoxy at the back part of the chassis and (probably) under the front of the receiver at the barrel v-block. This should quell a slight bit of movement I feel when the screw isn't completely tight.

It may not be an AK or an M-14, but it's quick and accurate, and it's small and light enough to possibly be with me -- inside the vehicle, not in the trunk! -- when I need it! Michael's been mentioning recommending Chargers in his podcast, and I think he's on to something. This little .22 and my Glock are becoming my constant companions in these troubled times.

Stay safe,
Dirty Bob
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: les snyder on August 04, 2020, 09:46:52 PM
my Charger is both similar and different to yours... I stayed with the factory take down barrel... I don't have a blade, just an AR pistol buffer tube (I'm tired of trying to keep up with the ATF notifications), and used the cheaper UTG folding hinge for an AK47 that fits the PMACA chassis, also no muzzle device

I was able to remove the slight rocking of the receiver from my 16" gun I built on the Brownells BRN22 chassis... I didn't use JB weld, but for the rear of the receiver an "L" shaped piece of cola can with a double fold on the bottom, and the vertical piece holds it in place between the receiver and chassis... for the front, a 1" piece of 1913 rail (maybe close to 1/2" thick, didn't measure) from the junk box had a radius somewhat similar to the barrel... inverted it took only a couple of cola can shims to really tighten up the whole receiver... it is located in place over one of the fore grip extension screws..... Les
Title: Re: The Ruger Charger...will this work?
Post by: Dirty Bob on August 04, 2020, 10:11:19 PM
Les, the shim idea is a good one. It sounds like your Charger may weigh a little less than mine, depending on barrel weight. I strongly considered a cord-wrapped buffer tube, but I'm faster with the Blade, and that was part of the appeal of the pistol.

I also used a UTG Scout Rail (~$12) that I shortened to fit the 6-inch barrel, so I could use backup sights as well as an optic. I like the fixed front, like a shotgun bead, for very fast, close range shooting.

Overall, I think that this little "Ruger" is actually fairly practical, as a very small and fairly light .22 that can reach out. I'm eager to try it at 100 yards and see what it can do.

Regards,
Bob