The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Texas_Bryan on November 27, 2009, 06:30:53 PM
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Team,
Thoughts on it? I've got a Sig P220 and have been recently handling it and the implications hit me. Should I reasonably expect some type of catastrophic failure causing the weapon to discharge when decocking? I know that the Sigs P2xx series have got multiple levels of redundancy towards ADs, trigger disconnect, intercept notch, and firing pin safety, but is there a reasonable possibility it could happen? Anyone here had, or heard from a primary source, a decocking AD with a modern handgun. I expect that early semi's may have been plagued by them, for lack of internal safety features. Also the whole sand bucket at the range turns me to think that there could be, or are those for plain old jackass idiots lacking the commonsense to keep the trigger clear while decocking.
-Bryan
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I'm not comfortable using them.
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I'm not comfortable using them.
Why not? Bad experience, or just out of your training and use?
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I've had a Beretta 92 with a decocker, my daughter has a Sig P228 with one, the SIL has a P6 and a P226 with one and the POS Walter P22 has one as well. I've never personally had a problem with them and no one I know has either. I know the 92 had safeguards the prevented the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the trigger was pressed.
The Beretta safes and decocks with the same lever whereas the Sigs have no external safety of any kind.
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Why not? Bad experience, or just out of your training and use?
It's the idea of dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber when I DO NOT want it to go bang, I'm not comfortable with that. I won't reject a pistol for having one, but I use my thumb to slow the fall of the hammer.
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if your pointing it in a safe direction, it should not matter. I've never heard of a modern gun going bang during this procedure.
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The CYA folks at the S&W Walther PPK/S plant in Maine, thought it was enough of an issue recall all of them going back several years. However, my FN9, which has a de-cocker, and a formerly owned S&W Model 411 in .40 NEVER had an issue.
To "de-cock" on a loaded chamber, as with lowering the hammer on a single action,... fundamental gun rules apply.
"Muzzle always pointed in a safe direction".
When one expects a bang and hears nothing but a click, that in and of itself is bad.
The same can be said the other way around.
Safety, Safety, Safety... But I have tested my de-cocker with my FN9 on a loaded chamber many times, muzzle down range, and have had NO issues.
I would expect a quality pistol like Sig to maintain that high of a standard as well.
Just my .02 cents.
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I've had a Beretta 92 with a decocker, my daughter has a Sig P228 with one, the SIL has a P6 and a P226 with one and the POS Walter P22 has one as well. I've never personally had a problem with them and no one I know has either. I know the 92 had safeguards the prevented the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the trigger was pressed.
The Beretta safes and decocks with the same lever whereas the Sigs have no external safety of any kind.
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sorry you are wrong, the p22 safty has to be engaged and trigger pulled to lower hammer.
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if your pointing it in a safe direction, it should not matter. I've never heard of a modern gun going bang during this procedure.
Dude, I've got neighbors within 10 yards on 3 sides and below me, on the 4th side the next house is 40 yards away, There really ISN'T a safe direction.
I will restate though, I've never heard of one failing, but trusting them makes me uncomfortable.
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if your pointing it in a safe direction, it should not matter. I've never heard of a modern gun going bang during this procedure.
...and to add to Tom's comment, was it you who bemoaned the 'pulling the trigger' disassembly procedure on Glocks, XDs etc? ???
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...and to add to Tom's comment, was it you who bemoaned the 'pulling the trigger' disassembly procedure on Glocks, XDs etc? ???
thats firing the gun in the normal manor.
Tom there is a company that makes thin gun cases that are basicly bullet proof vests. The name escapes me right now. I've been thinking about buying one for when I travel.
edit, found it
http://safedirection.com/
in the coasties we had to load up and make safe into a containment barrel, but that was do to idiots that could not keep thier finger off triger.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one with the willies!
I have a Beretta 9000 with a decocker. I like being able to carry loaded in double action mode, but dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber feels just plain wrong. I don't care if it has never gone bang, and people all over the world are doing it with out an issue, and that I have the gun pointed in a safe direction, etc. It just doesn't feel right.
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For what it's worth, i had a Ruger P89 with a de-cocker that VIOLENTLY dropped the hammer. It sounded like pulling the trigger without a round in the chamber. Never couled get comfortable with it. On the other hand, my sig 229's de-cocker has more of the feel of lowering the hammer rather than dropping it (if that makes any sense). I have no issues in using the de-cocker on the sig.
-G
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For what it's worth, i had a Ruger P89 with a de-cocker that VIOLENTLY dropped the hammer. It sounded like pulling the trigger without a round in the chamber. Never couled get comfortable with it. On the other hand, my sig 229's de-cocker has more of the feel of lowering the hammer rather than dropping it (if that makes any sense). I have no issues in using the de-cocker on the sig.
-G
I know what you mean, my little bro's Taurus PT92's decock feels like a trigger pull. And most Sigs are smooth, mine's a little rough, its a fifteen years old that needs a new spring kit, but I still trust it. Just cant shake that feeling, I suppose it comes from the years of rifles and shot guns. I just don't like the idea of using the decocker a couple times a week if its going to be a second trigger, the one the factory intended is enough for me. ;D
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The Sig de-cock design is quite safe and efficient. It does "lower" the hammer. And since your finger is not on the trigger, it cannot circumvent the firing pin safety.
It is actually less safe to lower the hammer manually. It has the potential for creating a pistol that fires when dropped. It is also very important to insure that the hammer return spring remains strong and be replaced when a check reveals it becoming weak. This seems to be most common in the 220 series, but overall is rarely seen or understood.
It is a moot point when you rely on the de-cock lever only, to lower the hammer.
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I've never felt comfortable using a decocker and letting the hammer fall freely. I'll use the decocker to free the hammer and lower it slowly with my thumb & index finger pinching it...just like I'd lower a SA pistol's hammer...
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Had a Walther P1, Ruger P90 and Ruger P85MKII and never had the decocker fail. I'd trust the decocker. But keep it pointed in a safe direction because machines that we trust can and do fail now and then.
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I have 2 Walther P99's one in the AS trigger group and the other in the QA trigger group. Both have decockers and both get used. I do point in a safe direction when decocking though. Just in case. I think that is just good gun safety no matter what. I have taken down the gun and inspected how the decock and striker works and it seems very simple and safe on the Walthers. Don't know about other guns.
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I've owned a Ruger P95DC. I've never had a problem with it and would feel safe using it.
Of course I always did and always will point a loaded weapon in a safe direction no matter what dodad is installed for safety.
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ANOTHER piece of stuff on your pistol which is (1) not needed and (2) put there by the great minds of the 15th century and military.
On Sigs it is not needed and is not a safety since the SIG desing has a steel bar which covers the fireing pin from being struck unless the trigger is pulled back to a certain point.
The decocker is easily removed and does not interfere with the operation of the SIG indeed, it removes junk from the pistol.
Many think the loss of the decocker is a deadly sin and that lowering the hammer with your thumb on it is deadly. See the Colt 1911. That is the only way to relieve the cocked hammer and has been done for ages.
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Just a thought:
In the days of lawyer-approved guns and a fair share of product safety recalls, would a company design a decocking mechanism that does not work as described in the owner's manual? ::)
Personally, I believe in decockers, but only in properly functioning firearms. If the gun looks like it needs a new spring or part, I wouldn't trust it.
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Have a P97 with decocker safety - spring loaded. Yes it has a violent hammer decock so I put my thumb on it to slow it down. Has more to the violent action that bothers me. Having examined the action I know it is safe to do so as the gun is build like a brick. Eats everything. Perfect reliability and a very effective, unbreakable as a pistol wipper.
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I have to agree with Kilroy. The only approved way of safeing a M-11 (Sig 228) was to decock. Lowering the hammer did not engage one of the safeties. Jeff Cooper was wrong on that according to the folks at Sig.
I believe that there is more involved to changing a DA/SA Sig to a DAK trigger than just removing the decocker. It does make a simpler pistol and with less moving parts it should be more reliable. Should ;D
I started with Sigs so decocking was no big deal. Now I would not buy a pistol with a manual decocker.
Was it ever the correct to lower a hammer on a 1911 with a round in the chamber?
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Was it ever the correct to lower a hammer on a 1911 with a round in the chamber?
Absolutely never on a pre series 80 mechanism and I would never do it on any 1911 of any vintage. Really dangerous to carry a 1911 in that condition IMO. Others may disagree.
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Absolutely never on a pre series 80 mechanism and I would never do it on any 1911 of any vintage. Really dangerous to carry a 1911 in that condition IMO. Others may disagree.
Actually it was. it was designed so it could be carried that way.
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http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/ad_tb.htm
"My brother recently acquired a Colt Commander. He had put a Federal hollowpoint in the chamber and lowered the hammer (condition #2). He was holstering the pistol with the hammer down. This was a holster with a thumb break. As he attempted to adjust the pistol in order to snap the thumb break closed, the pistol discharged. The round traveled into his upper right butt cheek and out the bottom, about 6 inches below his butt cheek. The round didn't expand and fell to the floor under the weight of gravity alone. He is fine now but the AD [accidental discharge] perplexed us a lot until we figured that the hammer was resting on the firing pin, and the soft primer Federal hollowpoint round and the hard "snap" of the new holster hit the hammer hard enough to touch off a round. Fixing the issue is to simply not chamber a round, period."
Form your own opinion.....
TAB, prove your statement.....
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A 1911 is just like a single action revolver with the hammer down - EMPTY CHAMBER ONLY !!!
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A 1911 is just like a single action revolver with the hammer down - EMPTY CHAMBER ONLY !!!
Exactly...once the hammer is down, none of the safeties are functional (unless a firing pin block exists on some models).
All the safety mechanisms for the 1911 were designed to work with the hammer cocked.
The manual safety and the grip safety block the rearward travel of the sear and trigger, respectively, thus preventing the hammer from falling if cocked.
Once the hammer is down on a loaded chamber, on Series 70's and earlier and clones, the hammer then rests on the firing pin and inertia along with firing spring pressure are all that prevents primer strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgBU5q5Cey0
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There was a long thread about hammer down on a 1911 on THR, while yes you can do it, and it is relativly safe, its not very smart.
I'd also like to point out, that a 1911 is very safe with out the safety engaged. 2 things must happen for it to go bang, which is not the case for most "new" semi autos. those it only takes 1 thing. Now I don't recomend carrying like that, but it still does not change the fact that it is safer then say a glock.
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Actually it was. it was designed so it could be carried that way.
Please provide proof of this statement. All I'm hearing are crickets.....Nothing!
Substantiate the statement or don't make comments that would lead someone into carrying a pistol in a unsafe manner. It's not about ego, it's about safety!
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A properly functioning 1911 should be able to be carried WITHOUT the thumb safety engaged, due to the other safety features. It's possible, but not a smart thing to do when you have that thumb safety available. Since safety is #1, DON'T carry a 1911 without engaging the thumb safety.
Conversely, it doesn't make much sense to carry a 1911 with the hammer down because one must pull back the hammer to fire, which is a pretty fine motor skill to employ when you are freaking out. Cocked and locked is, again, the best method for this weapon.
The danger in carrying a 1911 with hammer down with the gun in battery is the same danger in carrying an older design single action revolver on a loaded chamber. An impact to the hammer can cause a discharge.
The perception people have about a cocked hammer is that it is a very volatile situation- touch the trigger and you have a discharge. But how does that differ from carrying, say, a Glock? ---touch the trigger and you have a discharge. Carrying a fully functional 1911 cocked and locked has more safety features than a Glock or other similar pistol.
Carrying a 1911 hammer down is like carrying a Glock with no round in the barrel. It adds a step to your response if the situation requires gunplay. [color]
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I have confidence in decockers simply because of how they are built. I have them on my Sigs, CZs and 1 HK. I will say at first the decocker on HK next to the hammer and the strenght of it lowering the hammer made me nervous in the beginning.
Accidents will happen though. Last week at the indoor range a customers' Taurus 9mm handgun went full auto. It sure woke the RO.
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If one is not trained or prepared to carry a 1911 cocked and locked, than get another pistol, OR train to rack the slide, while under some form of lethal threat, and/ or cock the hammer since it's carried "de-cocked" on a loaded chamber.
With newer style semi-auto's, a Walther PPK/s for example, can be carried with one in the chamber, with the decocker/ safety, on, but will need to be "flipped off" and fired double action.,....or you can find the time to cock it first....
Pistols like the M+P, Glock, no hammer, are carried with one in the chamber all the time. "Booger hook off bang switch" really has to apply.
Level of comfort/training/ etc,... is paramount and individual.
Safety is the first priority.
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Please provide proof of this statement. All I'm hearing are crickets.....Nothing!
Substantiate the statement or don't make comments that would lead someone into carrying a pistol in a unsafe manner. It's not about ego, it's about safety!
I'll provide one....look at JMB's other pistols at that time period, esp. the one's chambered in .38ACP (not .380ACP) and .45ACP (that he originally sent to the Army trials.....no grip safety....no thumb safety....just cock the hammer back and fire....not unlike the SAA that the US Cavalry (who decided on the Army's pistol requirements) used....if it wasn't supposed to be thumb-cocked, JMB would have designed it like his .32ACP's and .380ACP's with the enclosed hammer.....
Another contemporary of the 1911 that operated the same way was the Tokarev....it never had a grip or thumb safety in it's original form....
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I'll provide one....look at JMB's other pistols at that time period, esp. the one's chambered in .38ACP (not .380ACP) and .45ACP (that he originally sent to the Army trials.....no grip safety....no thumb safety....just cock the hammer back and fire....not unlike the SAA that the US Cavalry (who decided on the Army's pistol requirements) used....if it wasn't supposed to be thumb-cocked, JMB would have designed it like his .32ACP's and .380ACP's with the enclosed hammer.....
Another contemporary of the 1911 that operated the same way was the Tokarev....it never had a grip or thumb safety in it's original form....
A little difference between comparing the SAA and 1911 in this particular respect. You also have to take into consideration that "gun safety" as we know it wasn't as big a factor in gun development a 100+ years ago. It didn't take long after the SAA was introduced to realize that hammer down on a loaded chamber was dangerous. Hammer down on an empty chamber for safety on the SAA was a non-issue because thumb-cocking moved a loaded round into firing position. On the 1911 that can't be done without racking the slide.
IMHO, if you carry a 1911 with a round in the chamber and the hammer down you are asking for trouble.
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Seeker...
I will disagree somewhat in that the M1911, in it's original design, was a combination of older designs AND the Army's requirements for a grip safety, slide safety and to be carried in a cocked and locked condition. They even required a lanyard loop attached to the MSH to prevent a calvaryman from losing his sidearm when riding a horse.
The 1911 was a design predicated on what the Army wanted to replace their older service sidearm of the day. Browning won that battle against several other designs including a .45 ACP chambered Luger pistol. He merely designed a gun based on what the customer wanted.
I could search and find this reference but I'm getting lazy...
:)
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comparing a 1911 hammer down to a SAA with the hammer down is not exactly correct.
on a SAA, the firing pin is resting on the primer. thats not the case with a 1911. 1911s have rebounding firing pins, when the hammer is down, its still not touching the primer. to make a 1911 go bang by taping the hammer, would require alot of force. since the firing pin is flush with the firing pin block. I would hazard to guess that unless that the force needed would be simlar to the force need to make the a pre "80s series" gun go bang if it was cocked and locked. Now if the gun was at "half cock" or the hammer moved back just a little bit, thats a diffrent story.
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comparing a 1911 hammer down to a SAA with the hammer down is not exactly correct.
on a SAA, the firing pin is resting on the primer. thats not the case with a 1911. 1911s have rebounding firing pins, when the hammer is down, its still not touching the primer. to make a 1911 go bang by taping the hammer, would require alot of force. since the firing pin is flush with the firing pin block. I would hazard to guess that unless that the force needed would be simlar to the force need to make the a pre "80s series" gun go bang if it was cocked and locked. Now if the gun was at "half cock" or the hammer moved back just a little bit, thats a diffrent story.
That is true...no argument there........ but are you willing to gamble with a dropped gun that lands muzzle down?
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IMO if you drop a gun, you don't deserve to carry it ever again.
I don't gamble, but it would be intresting to take a beater 1911 and do some contrled tests to see what the out come is.
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IMO if you drop a gun, you don't deserve to carry it ever again.
I don't gamble, but it would be intresting to take a beater 1911 and do some contrled tests to see what the out come is.
I'll try to find the info. I had a book with an article where some guys did drop tests back in the 70's or 80's and got a few discharges.
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I will disagree somewhat in that the M1911, in it's original design, was a combination of older designs AND the Army's requirements for a grip safety, slide safety and to be carried in a cocked and locked condition. They even required a lanyard loop attached to the MSH to prevent a calvaryman from losing his sidearm when riding a horse.
The Army never required cocked-&-locked carry....just a way to secure the pistol from firing while on horseback (a lot of horses learned first-hand how dangerous decocking a SAA while riding was :o ). The Army wanted the grip & thumb safeties so they could safe the pistol until they could dismount and decock.
Here's the process in order:
1. While dismounted, load your 1911, chamber round, decock, and holster.
2. Mount horse and ride into battle.
3. Draw and cock 1911 (like the SAA).
4. When done firing, use thumb safety to secure and holster 1911.
5. Dismount horse at camp.
6. Decock, unload, and clean 1911.
I'm not advocating Condition 2 as the best way to carry a SA autoloader, but it's not unsafe. 8)
....and the cavalry also had lanyards on their magazines, too..... ;D
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Excerpt from the War Department Field manual for M1911, dated April 1, 1912...
A loaded magazine is placed in the handle and the slide drawn
fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the
chamber (if the slide is open, push down the slide stop to let the
slide go forward). The hammer is thus cocked and the
pistol is ready for firing.
If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for
firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots,
draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the cham-
ber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide
and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock
upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer
being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at
full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock
(which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the
pistol to the firing position.
The grip safety is provided with an extending horn, which
not only serves as a guard to prevent the hand of the shooter from
slipping upward and being struck or injured by the hammer,
but also aids in accurate shooting by keeping the hand in the same
position for each shot ; and, furthermore, permits the lowering of the
cocked hammer with one hand by automatically pressing in the
grip safety when the hammer is drawn slightly beyond the
cocked position. In order to release the hammer, the grip
safety must be pressed in before the trigger is pulled.
SAFETY DEVICES.
It is impossible for the firing pin to discharge or even touch
the primer, except on receiving the full blow of the hammer.
The pistol is provided with two automatic safety devices :
The (automatic) disconnector which positively prevents
the release of the hammer unless the slide and barrel
are in the forward position and safely interlocked; this device also
controls the firing and prevents more than one shot from following
each pull of the trigger.
The (automatic) grip safety at all times locks the trigger
unless the handle is firmly grasped and the grip safety
pressed in.
The pistol is in addition provided with a safety lock by which
the closed slide and the cocked hammer can be at will posi-
tively locked in position.
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Excerpt from the War Department Field manual for M1911, dated April 1, 1912...
A loaded magazine is placed in the handle and the slide drawn
fully back and released, thus bringing the first cartridge into the
chamber (if the slide is open, push down the slide stop to let the
slide go forward). The hammer is thus cocked and the
pistol is ready for firing.
If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for
firing with the least possible delay the maximum number of shots,
draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the cham-
ber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide
and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock
upward, and insert a loaded magazine. The slide and hammer
being thus positively locked, the pistol may be carried safely at
full cock, and it is only necessary to press down the safety lock
(which is located within easy reach of the thumb) when raising the
pistol to the firing position.
The grip safety is provided with an extending horn, which
not only serves as a guard to prevent the hand of the shooter from
slipping upward and being struck or injured by the hammer,
but also aids in accurate shooting by keeping the hand in the same
position for each shot ; and, furthermore, permits the lowering of the
cocked hammer with one hand by automatically pressing in the
grip safety when the hammer is drawn slightly beyond the
cocked position. In order to release the hammer, the grip
safety must be pressed in before the trigger is pulled.
Thanks for proving my point..... ;D
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Thanks for proving my point..... ;D
Well, I'll be damned!.....I just tried that with my 1911 and though it's tough to do with a full beavertail and a combat hammer assembly, it does what it says it does. I would still not advise to carry in this condition nor would I advise lowering a hammer with one hand, but it would seem that I stand corrected.
We can debate for another 100 years about that being a wise design decision, I'm sure....JMB remains a God in my eyes regardless of the outcome...
;)
For what it's worth, the later manual of the 1911A1 DID allow for cocked and locked, just couldn't copy and paste the text. Moot point I know.
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We can debate for another 100 years about that being a wise design decision, I'm sure....JMB remains a God in my eyes regardless of the outcome...
....and the congregation said AMEN.... 8)
Thanks for the discuss.... ;D
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That is true...no argument there........ but are you willing to gamble with a dropped gun that lands muzzle down?
Or a snag on interior of vehicle or underside of a workbench or counter as you get up or move around :-\
Cocked and locked or empty chamber ... otherwise known as leave it at home and carry something else!
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Another thing, that only applies to Colt pistols.
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Another thing, that only applies to Colt pistols.
The more I bash this around in my brain, I keep thinking.....since you CANNOT engage the thumb safety with out being at full cock, why have it if not for cocked and locked conditions?
I'm swinging back to my original position...and I have a series 80 mechanism so if anything, carrying hammer down would be safer than a Government model but I still would never do it.
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Well, since this is a thread about de-cocking, 1911 users who are frightened of condition 1 could always go with the Safety Fast System from Cylinder & Slide.
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfssystem.shtml
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=SFSkits
8)
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I can have my LDA UN-cocked and locked. That seems very safe. I think the SFS system allows that too.
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I love 1911's and I understand new shooter worries but that is why I do not advise any shooter to purchase and carry a 1911 as their first gun. I think it was Masaad Ayoob (but I will stand by for correction) that said if you treat your carry gun like a lawn mower get a Glock or a Sig, if you treat your carry gun like its the pride and joy of your muscle car collection than get a 1911.
However getting back on topic...
I cannot speak to much of the Sig line as I have had little experience with them. However my family has some history with the Pietro Beretta Corp and I can assure you the decocker on the 92 series pistols are full proof.
Get out your 92 if you have one or if you have a good imagination follow me a little bit. Unload your pistol and keep it pointed in a safe direction and cock the hammer all the way back. At this point look at where the hammer falls into the slide. you should see the back side of the firing pin staring at you. Slowly press the safety/decocker down and you will see that the firing pin is not a firing pin per say. It is a piece of the firing pin but it is completely disconnected. It sits in a rolling mechinism that rolls up when you press the safety/decocker. So when the hammer falls in only contacts that round bar. It never comes close to the actual firing pin. There is no way that the hammer can contact the firing pin during a decocking action because the pin in a sense moves out of the way.
Hope that clears some things up for my Beretta friends.
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Found a video on the SFS 1911 system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3kl2cTkGI