The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Johnny Bravo on November 29, 2009, 12:32:52 PM
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4 Police Officers Shot Dead Near Washington State Air Force Base
Sunday, November 29, 2009
PrintShareThisSEATTLE — Four police officers were shot dead in an ambush at a Washington state coffee house, a sheriff's official said Sunday.
The attack occurred east of McChord Air Force Base in Parkland, Wash.
Authorities said two suspects entered Forza Coffee shop and opened fire on the four police officers who were sitting inside, q13fox.com reported.
The officers were going over paper work before starting their day shift when they were killed, q13fox.com reported.
Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer told The News Tribune in Tacoma that the officers were sitting in the coffee shop with their computers when the shooter came in Sunday morning.
He says investigators believe the officers were targeted, and it was not a robbery.
Troyer tells the newspaper "it was just a flat out ambush."
He could not immediately say what agency the officers were from.
There were other customers in the coffee shop but only the four officers were hit, according to Fox affiliate q13Fox.com.
There are two suspects, one male and one black male, q13Fox.com reported.
Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer tells Seattle's KOMO-TV that the officers were hit near 116th Street and Steele Street on the east side of the Air Force base at about 8:30 a.m. local time.
McChord Base is not on lockdown, according to 62dn Airlift Wing Public Affairs Spokesman Bud McKay. The base is open and implementing its standard procedure of ID checks.
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Truly a tragedy. I suspect the perps wont see a trial - and I am perfectly okay with that.
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Shit I used to live near there - never been in that coffee shop.
BIG military area, also very near/ beside Fort Lewis army base.
This stinks of a hit/ corruption something big illegal going on.
Tacoma area has also been a source/ association of a lot of serial killers.
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I'm waiting to hear MOTIVE. NY, Miami,Detroit, New Orleans and LA have showed time after time that sometimes the cops and the robbers are the same people.
It's pretty obvious that the shooters were after a Specific target, crooks don't whack cops for doing their job, it brings to much heat, that makes me think at least one of those cops was dirty and messed over some one he shouldn't have.
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I'm waiting to hear MOTIVE. NY, Miami,Detroit, New Orleans and LA have showed time after time that sometimes the cops and the robbers are the same people.
It's pretty obvious that the shooters were after a Specific target, crooks don't whack cops for doing their job, it brings to much heat, that makes me think at least one of those cops was dirty and messed over some one he shouldn't have.
I agree. Don't forget about love triangles. we had a cop killed here a couple years back( by another cop) over one.
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I just heard about this then over here while driving to work.
Intresting thourghts Tom.
I would hope that you are wrong though. Unfortunetly these days you can not always know.
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I agree. Don't forget about love triangles. we had a cop killed here a couple years back( by another cop) over one.
This ain't no love triangle, TAB. You DO NOT whack 4 cops over a love triangle. This was a hit, need to know why.
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if they wanted to kill one, the only safe way of doing that when there is 4 is to kill all 4. love makes people do strange things.
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Report didn't mention if they were "Regular Cops" or Detectives, Part of a Narcotics team, etc,... Seems that 4 regular street cops would be "ambushed" for no reason in a coffee shop, unless something yet to be uncovered comes out.
OR, they are some sick murdering bastards that might be gang related and this kind of "hit" earns big points. If it's a love triangle, talking accomplices to help you murder cops is a heck of a thing.
As TomB posted, exactly "what" was the MOTIVE?
Tragedy nonetheless.
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I think I'll wait till they have something to report before jumping to conclusions about sex fiend corrupt law enforcement.
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I'm just struggling to understand how killing four police officers would benefit someone. Usually what follows is doors getting kicked in, and faces getting smashed against concrete, if they're lucky. Honestly, I'm thinking that this was just a couple phycos looking to do something big to impress their bosses or to get 'blood in' to a gang like Twyacht is on to. Hopefully it'll end up with a couple of scumbags begging for death in some back room before they catch a bullet. Every cop in the area's probably riding with their carbine up front, and armor on, until these guys are caught or dead. The smart criminal wouldn't be taken alive on this one, not going to be alot of motivation to prosecute police brutality on this.
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I'm just struggling to understand how killing four police officers would benefit someone. Usually what follows is doors getting kicked in, and faces getting smashed against concrete, if they're lucky. Honestly, I'm thinking that this was just a couple phycos looking to do something big to impress their bosses or to get 'blood in' to a gang like Twyacht is on to. Hopefully it'll end up with a couple of scumbags begging for death in some back room before they catch a bullet. Every cop in the area's probably riding with their carbine up front, and armor on, until these guys are caught or dead. The smart criminal wouldn't be taken alive on this one, not going to be alot of motivation to prosecute police brutality on this.
You live in Texas, this is in WA state, very different place or so I'm told. A lot of the libs moved out of CA and went to the coast in WA and OR and have screwed things royally - and politically. So yeah, there will be some hotshot lawyer just itching to make his bones on a police brutality case.
BTTT: I don't think even a gang would be stupid enough - for the reasons you noted - to sanction this. And I have heard lots of crap about gangs in Chicago and what they will and will not do. So either a lone psycho (or pair, early reports said 2) or possibly Dharmaeye and TB are on the right track about some kind of dirty goings on. All the cops were in uniform according to one article.
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The ms13 have a tendacy to kill cops when they get too close. The other radical groups usually do not attempt to do this because most organizations try to stay under the radar and not draw attention to themselves. Doing something like this makes you a skid mark on the underware of the criminal justice system.
Go walk the beat on golden streets for the four. They have done their time in hell. God bless them and their families.
As for the dirt bags that commited this, you deserve to be put through a tree chipper feet first.
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The ms13 have a tendacy to kill cops when they get too close. The other radical groups usually do not attempt to do this because most organizations try to stay under the radar and not draw attention to themselves. Doing something like this makes you a skid mark on the underware of the criminal justice system.
Go walk the beat on golden streets for the four. They have done their time in hell. God bless them and their families.
As for the dirt bags that commited this, you deserve to be put through a tree chipper feet first.
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This is the second attack on the police in this area . The first a few weeks ago was a Seattle officer sitting in his cruiser . Also fatal shooting . That one was labled a terroist attack by the Cheif of police . So hold off on motive in this one .
Paso Tom
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This is the second attack on the police in this area . The first a few weeks ago was a Seattle officer sitting in his cruiser . Also fatal shooting . That one was labled a terroist attack by the Cheif of police . So hold off on motive in this one .
Paso Tom
Third attack. Police cruisers were firebombed a little while back.
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I havent read all the replies on here yet, but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in on this. And I may offend someone but that is not my goal. This literally happened not 10 miles away from me today. And yes it has stopped our city dead in its tracks to watch now what has become the 2nd major execution style shooting on police in a matter of months. This time 4 were killed instead of one. IT IS TERRIBLE.
With that said, why have these officers not ever heard of Jim Cirillo, or Mas Ayoob and their many teachings of situational awareness. There has been multiple acts of violence and outrage by hardcore Killers and Criminals around the WA state area that if you put on the uniform you need to keep one eye up at all times.
I am not by any means saying that what has happened is the officers fault or any of that, but maybe doing police reports where your guard will be lowered to the point of not being able to give your full attention to your surroundings is something you should do in your base.
I always think of the story of Jim Cirillo walking into the QuickMart and being aware enough to draw and put 3 perfect shots down in the time it would take most to pull their head out of their ass and start to scream.
Lakewood where this happened is not the best place in South Puget Sound. You need to know that you putting on the uniform is in a sense making yourself the enemy to many. It is not just a 9-5. I hope you all understand that once again I am not blaming anyone innocent I just wish that these officers would have been taught better Situational Awareness.
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Bad thing is if you are that agressive as a police officer people complain that you are badge heavy or paranoid. If you do not see it comming then you are a fat lazy slob. So cops are screwed either way you cannot win.
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Ksail, I had the same thought - where was their situational awareness? Apparently going over some sort of paperwork before their shift, but still, in uniform and in public. I bet at least one of them had their backs to the door too, all heads down over their computers. Two never even got up, one did barely, the fourth struggled with the shooter to the door before collapsing.
The dept. is apparently fairly new, as all 4 had joined when the force in Lakewood was formed 3 years ago. I noticed rapid growth from nothing to 100 officers - wondered about what that meant. Our whole county has only 120 deputies for 1700 square miles plus the jail, court baillifs, paper serving, etc.
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,577691,00.html
Why is this scum walking the streets? Compassion towards criminals? What's that old saying about utopias? Some people's self indulgent 'enlightenment' is payed for in blood of the people that help hold this society up out of the mud. This guy should have been in prison for life or dead.
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I'll wait for more Information about the cops, Every one stuck up for NYPD detectives Eppilito and Carracapa too, Even after they were convicted of being enforcers and Hitmen for the Mafia.
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http://www.officer.com/web/online/Officer-Down-News/Four-Wash-Officers-Shot-Dead-in-Ambush/2$49535
Four Wash. Officers Shot Dead in Ambush
By GENE JOHNSON
Associated Press Writer
PARKLAND, Wash. --
A gunman burst into a coffeehouse Sunday and opened fire on four police officers as they sat working on their laptops, killing the three men and one woman in what an official described as a targeted ambush.
Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer said officers were looking for one male suspect who fled the scene and haven't ruled out an accomplice, possibly a getaway driver.
Troyer said investigators had spoken to a person in nearby Tacoma, who gave information that led them to believe the gunman was on foot and still near the coffee shop. Troyer would not given any details nor characterize that person in any way, but said the information led officers to carefully search buildings close by.
It wasn't clear whether the slain officers even had time to draw their weapons to return fire, Troyer said.
"This was more of an execution. Walk in with the specific mindset to shoot police officers," Troyer said.
Troyer said the officers - all from the Lakewood Police Department - were catching up on paperwork at the beginning of their shifts when they were attacked at 8:15 a.m. Sunday.
Troyer said the attack was clearly targeted at the officers, not a robbery gone bad.
"There were marked patrol cars outside and they were all in uniform," Troyer said.
With no known suspects, there was no indication of any connection with the Halloween night shooting of a Seattle police officer. The suspect in that shooting remains hospitalized.
"We won't know if it's a copycat effect or what it was until we get the case solved," Troyer said. "We don't even have a suspect ID right now."
Troyer would not release the names of the victims in Sunday's shooting. He said Lakewood has a small police force and the deaths represent a loss of 10 percent to 15 percent of the department.
Troyer estimated that a couple of hundred officers from the Washington State Patrol and multiple surrounding police agencies in the area were at the crime scene, with some coming on their own time.
"We have no motive at all," Troyer said. "I don't think when we find out what it is, it will be anything that makes any sense or be worth it."
Two employees and a few other customers were in the shop during the attack. All are being interviewed by the Pierce County Sheriff's investigators.
"Some are in shock. They are very upset," Troyer said. "They are the ones who are going to put together for us how this happened."
The Forza Coffee Shop, part of a popular local chain, is on a side street near McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma, about 35 miles south of Seattle. The shop is in a small retail center alongside two restaurants, a cigar store and a nail salon.
Brad Carpenter, founder and owner of Forza Coffee, said his staff was OK and being interviewed by police, and that his main concern was for the families of the police officers.
"I'm a retired police officer, so this really hits close to home for me," said Carpenter, of nearby Gig Harbor.
Troyer said the Lakewood officers were two blocks outside their jurisdiction, and the coffee shop was a popular place for officers from surrounding jurisdictions to meet and share information.
Streets around the coffee shop were blocked off late Sunday morning, and a police helicopter hovered over a large crowd of investigators. TV video showed police taking possession of a pickup truck parked in a grocery store in Parkland.
"We are looking at some people. We are looking at some cars. We are looking at some residences," Troyer said.
Troyer said investigators were checking surveillance video from multiple sources, trying to identify a possible getaway car.
Dave Gabrielson, a clerk at Foot Mart about a block away from the coffee shop, told the newspaper all was quiet when he opened the store at 8 a.m. About 30 minutes later, "All of a sudden a million cops were zooming up and down the road," Gabrielson said.
He said he saw officers bring a police dog into a nearby apartment complex.
Last month, Seattle police officer Timothy Brenton was shot and killed Halloween night as he was sitting in a cruiser with trainee Britt Sweeney. Sweeney was grazed in the neck.
Authorities say the man charged with that shooting also firebombed four police vehicles in October as part of a "one-man war" against law enforcement. Christopher Monfort, 41, was arrested after being wounded in a firefight with police days after the Seattle shooting. He remains hospitalized in stable condition, the hospital said Sunday.
The officers killed Sunday were a patrol squad made up of three officers and their sergeant. No threats had been made against them or other officers in the region, sheriff's officials said. Their families have been notified.
"We lost people we care about. We're working to find out who did this and deal with him." Pierce County Sheriff Paul Pastor told reporters at the scene.
Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire said she was "shocked and horrified" by the killings.
"Our police put their lives on the line every day, and tragedies like this remind us of the risks they continually take to keep our communities safe," she said in a written statement. "My heart goes out to the family, friends and co-workers of these officers, as well as the entire law enforcement community."
At Rollies Tavern near the coffee house, the plasma TVs usually tuned to football had Northwest Cable News on. Three bar patrons live next door to the coffee house.
Jerry Arnold, 45, was in bed when he was awakened by sirens. He's lived there seven years and never seen anything close to Sunday's scene.
"I hope they get them. I can't sleep until they do," he said. "Those guys could be hiding in my backyard."
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Associated Press Writer Rachel La Corte in Olympia and Photographer Ted S. Warren in Parkland contributed to this report.
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Police: Suspect in deaths of officers not in house
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091130/ap_on_re_us/us_officers_shot
SEATTLE – Police say the suspect in the slayings of four police officers at a suburban coffee shop was not found in the Seattle home where he was thought to have been holed up.
Negotiators spent the night trying to communicate with 37-year-old Maurice Clemmons, using loudspeakers, explosions and even a robot to try to prod him from hiding. But when they entered the home, he was not there.
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385612_webpolicefund29m.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385612_webpolicefund29m.html)
Police union sets up fund for slain officers
The union for Lakewood Police officers and sergeants has established a fund for the four officers killed today.
By Seattle Times staff
The union for Lakewood Police officers and sergeants has established a fund for the four officers killed today.
On its Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=83164294642), the union says every penny donated will go to the officers' families and donations can be made to specific officers. Checks should be made out to the LPIG Benevolent Fund at P.O. Box 99579, Lakewood, WA 98499, according to the message posted by Brian D. Wurts, president of the Lakewood Police Independent Guild.
Wurts said he would "personally make sure" donations will go where intended. Wurts' e-mail address is bwurts@lpig.us.
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385612_webpolicefund29m.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385612_webpolicefund29m.html)
Police union sets up fund for slain officers
The union for Lakewood Police officers and sergeants has established a fund for the four officers killed today.
By Seattle Times staff
The union for Lakewood Police officers and sergeants has established a fund for the four officers killed today.
On its Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=83164294642), the union says every penny donated will go to the officers' families and donations can be made to specific officers. Checks should be made out to the LPIG Benevolent Fund at P.O. Box 99579, Lakewood, WA 98499, according to the message posted by Brian D. Wurts, president of the Lakewood Police Independent Guild.
Wurts said he would "personally make sure" donations will go where intended. Wurts' e-mail address is bwurts@lpig.us.
I learned eons ago in IT to always, always, always look at your acronym before publicizing it. L-PIG for a police benevolent group? Please!
Still, good cause, I'm sure most if not all had families. And all of this just a couple day after Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up. This holiday season will be hard on the kids for decades to come.
The BG who did this is probably holed up somewhere dying of sepsis, don't think anyone wants anything to do with this creature.
I'd of killed him just for the baby rape - and WA state let him parole out.
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I learned eons ago in IT to always, always, always look at your acronym before publicizing it. L-PIG for a police benevolent group? Please!
Still, good cause, I'm sure most if not all had families. And all of this just a couple day after Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up. This holiday season will be hard on the kids for decades to come.
The BG who did this is probably holed up somewhere dying of sepsis, don't think anyone wants anything to do with this creature.
I'd of killed him just for the baby rape - and WA state let him parole out.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091201/ap_on_re_us/us_officers_shot
Suspect in officer killings eludes law in Seattle
SEATTLE – Authorities believe the man sought in the slaying of four police officers is still alive and has been aided by a network of friends and family, a police spokesman said Monday night.
Officers believe Maurice Clemmons was shot in the abdomen during the attack on the officers at a Parkland coffee shop, and had speculated he might have died.
But Ed Troyer, a spokesman for the Pierce County Sheriff, said investigators have questioned several people who had provided assistance to Clemmons since the Sunday morning shootings.
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Just in . . .
Suspect in Wash. Police Killings Shot Dead
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,578292,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,578292,00.html)
SEATTLE — DEVELOPING: A sheriff's spokesman in Washington state says Seattle police have fatally shot the man suspected of gunning down four police officers.
Pierce County sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer says Maurice Clemmons was shot and killed early Tuesday in a Seattle neighborhood. Authorities suspected Clemmons of killing the four officers at a coffee shop Sunday morning in Lakewood, a suburb about 35 miles south of Seattle.
Troyer says Seattle police found Clemmons after Pierce County authorities supplied addresses of possible hiding spots.
Police have said they aren't sure what prompted Clemmons to shoot the officers as they did paperwork on their laptops. Clemmons was described as increasingly erratic in the past few months.
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If correct, it makes my day. When I was in uniform, one of our guys was wounded during a traffic stop. Never caught the shooter. Never forgot. Some are still looking.
Mac.
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Night Owl coffee shop ring a bell? Rollo Tomasi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.A._Confidential_%28film%29)? Is this life imitating art, or is there more here than meets the eye?
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http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/975864.html
Yep they (Seattle PD) shot him! ;D Here's the link from our local Tacoma paper.
Cop killer suspect shot and killed by Seattle police
Police shot and killed murder suspect Maurice Clemmons this morning in the Rainier Valley of Seattle by a patrol officer checking out an unoccupied stolen vehicle.
Clemmons, 37, was killed about 2:45 a.m. in the 4400 block of South Kenyon Street in South Seattle.
He was holding a gun that belonged to one of the four Lakewood police officers killed Sunday, Pierce County Sheriff’s spokesman Ed Troyer said.
“We’re very lucky we don’t have a dead police officer from Seattle,” Troyer said. “This could have very easily turned out totally different.”
Clemmons had been wounded before the fatal encounter and it appeared he had tried to get some medical aid for the wound, which was inflicted by one of the Lakewood officers.
In addition, four people – including a suspected getaway driver – were arrested overnight on suspicion of helping move and hide Clemmons, Troyer said. They were booked into the Pierce County Jail on rendering criminal assistance.
“We’ll look for more people to arrest today,” Troyer said. Authorities gave this account of Clemmons’ death:
The officer, whose name has not been released, spotted a car that had been reported stolen earlier in the night. It was running but unoccupied.
The officer, a seven-year veteran, called in his location and the car’s license plate number. As the officer investigated, he felt a presence behind him.
The officer had told investigators he recognized the approaching person as Clemmons from the law enforcement bulletins.
The man was ordered to stop and show his hands. The man did not and started to move around the stolen car. The officer again ordered him to stop and, when he did not, shot Clemmons several times. He died at the scene of his wounds.
Police do not believe Clemmons was at a house in the area he was killed.
Clemmons was the prime suspect in the fatal shooting Sunday of four Lakewood police officers. Sgt. Mark Renninger, 39, and officers Tina Griswold, 40, Ronald Owens, 37, and Greg Richards, 42, were shot and killed Sunday in the Forza Coffee Co. in Parkland.
The families of the slain officers have been notified of Clemmons’ death.
Lakewood Police Chief Bret Farrar, who was at the Seattle scene, thanked his colleagues in law enforcement for their work on the case.
“I had all the confidence in the world in the Sheriff’s Department,” said Farrar, who worked for the Sheriff’s Department before joining the Lakewood force as a lieutenant when the agency formed.
“We can close the page on this.”
By the end of the day up to six arrests could be made in connection with the case, Troyer said.
Law enforcement agencies had been searching homes and locating and rounding up relatives and friends of Clemmons in Tacoma, Seattle, Renton and elsewhere in the Puget Sound since Sunday.
Deputies have arrested a man suspected of driving Clemmons away from the shooting scene, Troyer said. He was being interviewed by investigators.
Troyer said he didn’t know whether the driver knew what was going on or if Clemmons had told the driver what he was going to do at the coffee shop.
The friends and families of Clemmons who’ve been arrested are suspected of trying to get him medical aid and shelter. They gave Clemmons money, food and cell phones, Troyer said.
Pierce County Prosecutor Mark Lindquist said his office is “working full speed” on those who’ve been arrested on suspicion of helping Clemmons.
“What we are looking at this morning is anyone who helped the criminal,” Lindquist said. “You help a criminal, you become a criminal and we are going to prosecute you like a criminal.”
The motive for Sunday’s shooting was unknown.
Authorities said they determined Clemmons knew he was angry about being incarcerated and told friends to watch the news because he was going to kill officers. They have no indication Clemmons knew the officers’ he killed.
Troyer said the wound Clemmons suffered Sunday was serious.
“He was shot dead center,” Troyer said, pointing to his torso. “He managed to continue running.”
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So no sex scandal?
No drug corruption?
No abuse of power?
No urban gang hit?
Some of you folks should work for MSNBC.
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I am relieved to read that my original suspicions about the Officers were unfounded, and the dirtbag will not be released onto our streets to prey on more citizens.
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MOOOSELEM????????
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So no sex scandal?
No drug corruption?
No abuse of power?
No urban gang hit?
Some of you folks should work for MSNBC.
Got to look at reality here Ratcatcher, there are a lot of dirtbags out there and some of them DO wear Badges, it is fortunate that this was not the case here.
But Here's a little list just off the top of my head : Detroit cops pulling B&E's, Night shift cops in both NY and Miami convicted of robbing dope dealers and reselling the drugs, 2 NY detectives convicted of passing information and conducting hits for the Mafia, a FBI agent working on OC in NY same thing, In Boston the entire FBI Office was getting presents from Whitey Bulger because 2 of them were in his pocket, it was never proven that Connelly KILLED any one for him, but it WAS proven that he passed information to Bulger that led to the murders of at least 2 people, Brian Halloran, and Kevin Weeks.
So don't get to snippy if when things like this happen people want ALL the facts before assuming any one is innocent.
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Got to look at reality here Ratcatcher, there are a lot of dirtbags out there and some of them DO wear Badges, it is fortunate that this was not the case here.
But Here's a little list just off the top of my head : Detroit cops pulling B&E's, Night shift cops in both NY and Miami of robbing dope dealers and reselling the drugs, 2 NY detectives convicted of passing information and conducting hits for the Mafia, a FBI agent working on OC in NY same thing, In Boston the entire FBI Office was getting presents from Whitey Bulger because 2 of them were in his pocket, it was never proven that Connelly KILLED any one for him, but it WAS proven that he passed information to Bulger that led to the murders of at least 2 people, Brian Halloran, and Kevin Weeks.
So don't get to snippy if when things like this happen people want ALL the facts before assuming any one is innocent.
Not to mention a whole volume dedicated to Chicago's "finest" - and the current mayor who has been implicated in condoning police brutality to extract information when he was State's Attorney.
I too am glad that (so far) nothing untoward has been identified. I wish the guy hadn't gotten his sorry ass killed so we could find out what this was about, even if just psychotic ramblings and rants. I am surprised that his support network was so big - four people so far. Is there a "I hate cops" culture up there in WA state?
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Is there a "I hate cops" culture up there in WA state?
There is an "I hate cops" culture everywhere there are bad-guys.
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Tom,
I agree there are bad cops and bad soldiers, sailors, marines, airman and bad Feds.
I just think it's wrong to assume they are bad until there is some shred of evidence that person is a problem.
I'm pretty cynical but not that bad yet. Maybe next week ;D
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I wasn't that cynical until I moved back to a town where I had gone to school many years before and saw the collection of delinquents and thugs who had wound up being Cops.
Jeez, I HAD thought it was the Military the judge sent them to. ??? ;D
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So after all the conjecture and talk of corruption we find out this was a random attack by a guy who just hated cops. We will never know why, since hes dead, by a lone officer on a dark street. I think after the shock and sadness by the PD, training issues will have to be addressed. How can a lone shooter kill 4 cops with a hand gun in a coffee shop.? Seems like condition white.
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2Show,
One thing force on force training showed me is how screwed you are if stuck in the reacting mode.
Get some airsoft pistols and masks.
Go get 4 friends and have them seated with duty holsters on. Tell them to react when they see a threat. Walk several people by them. Walk up and shoot the two facing you, then the two with their backs turned towards you. Even an old man like me should be able to kill them all before the can get a pistol out of the holster.
I agree they were too complacent but unless they expected an attack they were in a very big hole.
Force on force training when you use some realistic senerios is a real eye opener.
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2 things that have crossed my mind about this.
It seems like where they lost the fight was in their minds before it ever started, "They were PREPARING to go on duty". They would have had a better chance had they put on their "On Duty" mindset when they put on the Uniform. Dirt bags that see them in uniform don't know or care if they are "On Duty" yet, they see a Uniformed Cop . ( I hope I expressed that clearly)
My second thought concerns the fact Clemmons WAS shot by one of the Officers. Some articles I've seen said in the stomach, others say in the chest. This underlines the need to keep pumping rounds into a threat until it goes down.
While I disagree with Rob that the Mozambique drill is not good for TRAINING, you MUST avoid the mindset of firing 2 or three rounds and "assessing". If the threat is still upright and facing you there is nothing to assess, keep hammering it, compared to your life ammo is cheap.
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A friend of mine said something last night about it, that would have stoped this. no more then 2 officers can be seated at the same table. if the 4 had been split up and several tables apart, chances are good that the other 2 could have atleast returned fire.
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2Show,
One thing force on force training showed me is how screwed you are if stuck in the reacting mode.
Get some airsoft pistols and masks.
Go get 4 friends and have them seated with duty holsters on. Tell them to react when they see a threat. Walk several people by them. Walk up and shoot the two facing you, then the two with their backs turned towards you. Even an old man like me should be able to kill them all before the can get a pistol out of the holster.
I agree they were too complacent but unless they expected an attack they were in a very big hole.
Whenever you are in uniform you are a target. These people were as much asleep as the 2 pilots who flew past the airport. I hate it but the truth is they were complacent. You have to be in condition yellow all the time these days. I disagree with your scenario. Proper training and this guy would not have done this.
Force on force training when you use some realistic senerios is a real eye opener.
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Folks
Its going around that the shooter was a member of the local Nation of Islam chapter up there. Can anyone confirm this?
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Ratcatcher -
The only problem with your plan is that by equiping themselves for the exercise, (masks and such) they will be in a hightened state of awareness. Training officers need to make an effort of simulating attacks at meetings and gatherings with officers (do this in settings where they are unarmed, so they don't shoot in reaction). It is a matter of educating officers that there is no such thing as a perfectly safe place.
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Have them wear the masks at all gatherings ( except meals of course) and then jump them in a couple of them to get them used to the idea that they are never "safe".
And use paint balls on them so they get the same shock value seeing the guy across from them suddenly splattered red.
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As has been quoted so much and credited to so many that no one really knows who said it first, "Why did you wear your gun? Are you expecting trouble?" "No, if I had been expecting trouble here I wouldn't have come." Be prepared and ready at all times in all places is the only way to stand a chance. No guarantees, but at least not a sitting duck.
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Got to look at reality here Ratcatcher, there are a lot of dirtbags out there and some of them DO wear Badges, it is fortunate that this was not the case here.
But Here's a little list just off the top of my head : Detroit cops pulling B&E's, Night shift cops in both NY and Miami convicted of robbing dope dealers and reselling the drugs, 2 NY detectives convicted of passing information and conducting hits for the Mafia, a FBI agent working on OC in NY same thing, In Boston the entire FBI Office was getting presents from Whitey Bulger because 2 of them were in his pocket, it was never proven that Connelly KILLED any one for him, but it WAS proven that he passed information to Bulger that led to the murders of at least 2 people, Brian Halloran, and Kevin Weeks.
So don't get to snippy if when things like this happen people want ALL the facts before assuming any one is innocent.
This is still AMERICA and innocent until proven guilty!!!!! >:( So getting snippy with someone that make accusations before all the Facts IS perfectly reasonable! Not every cop is a good cop but it's a profession that our society demands (rightfully) get the benefit of innocent until proven guilty! I think that's why they've made it so difficult to get hired as a cop these days, they want to know everything about you, the process can take 6mo. to a year to get hired and one little white lie or omission in the app process means dismissal/no hire.
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If you re-read my original post you will note that I did not accuse anyone of anything, I simply pointed out some questions I had.
If you or any other current or former Cop on here has a problem with that maybe it's time to forget the "Blue wall" BS and start Policing yourselves.
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Don't remember if I saw it here or on Mas Ayoob's blog (http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/), but someone made what seems to me to be the best idea yet for avoiding this sort of thing - people in uniform, especially cops, should not all sit together in public. Separate booths, separate tables, you get the idea. Also, it might be good policy to have a "designated observer," in such settings - someone not doing paperwork or otherwise occupied, but simply keeping an eye out for suspicious characters. Might save some lives, and this way everybody doesn't have to go around in condition orange 24/7.
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Don't remember if I saw it here or on Mas Ayoob's blog (http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/), but someone made what seems to me to be the best idea yet for avoiding this sort of thing - people in uniform, especially cops, should not all sit together in public. Separate booths, separate tables, you get the idea. Also, it might be good policy to have a "designated observer," in such settings - someone not doing paperwork or otherwise occupied, but simply keeping an eye out for suspicious characters. Might save some lives, and this way everybody doesn't have to go around in condition orange 24/7.
Not to mention not sitting with your back to the door. Even I know (after learning of Wild Bill Hickock many many years ago) know not to do that.
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Just a question, is it usual for LEO's in uniform to meet up at coffee shops before starting work to catch up on paper work? Just seems rather strange behaviour isnt that what the station is for?
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Ratcatcher -
The only problem with your plan is that by equiping themselves for the exercise, (masks and such) they will be in a hightened state of awareness. Training officers need to make an effort of simulating attacks at meetings and gatherings with officers (do this in settings where they are unarmed, so they don't shoot in reaction). It is a matter of educating officers that there is no such thing as a perfectly safe place.
It's just an exercise to show you what a disadvantage you are at reacting to an ambush. All training is "unnatural" in that aspect because you know you are going to draw and probably fire your weapon. It does allow some stress hardening and develop behaviors that can help you survive. Less of the Oh Sh*t moments and more action. It's better to find out what won't work in a drill than be surprised in real life.
I think TAB is correct that if they had split up at two tables they would have had a better chance to defend themselves. You could game that too. The problem is in real life they end up talking a cross tables which may be rude to everyone there. In Philly the cops tended to go as far back in a diner as they could get. Distance was time to react.
Personally I check out everybody who walks in any room I'm in. My wife was notices it most folks are too self absorbed to be aware of it.
I believe Mr. Pincus teaches counter ambush courses. Maybe he has some thoughts
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The contact and cover protocal used on the street perhaps needs to be used in more familiar surroundings where officers congregate. Even the big wall street banks are limiting employees to groups of 11 while they wait for their firearms permits to repel the impending hoards of pissed off consumers. This story from DUF mailer reminds that training is a good start as well.
3 Dec 09
Gun Ignorance, even among "Professionals." This from a student and Chiropractor in the Midwest:
"A local, uniformed, patrol officer came in to my office last week, complaining of headaches and lower-back pain. She stated that pain was occurring while she was on duty, and mentioned that her duty-belt was uncomfortable.
I began by asking about her duty-pistol. She stated that it was a SIG. When I asked what model, she paused and answered, 'Why, it's a Sig/Sauer. Is there another kind?'
I let out a breath and then asked if the weapon's magazines were single or double-stack, what caliber, how many spare magazines she carried, and where she carried them. I got back a confused look, and then she asked me what 'double-stack' meant. In addition, she had no idea what caliber her pistol was, but we determined that both spare magazines were routinely carried on the same side as her pistol.
I asked if she practiced reloading her pistol with magazines carried thus. She indicated that she '... couldn't remember,' adding 'I don't know; I just carry them there.'"
Comment: In light of the recent WA ambush of uniformed officers, the foregoing is of great concern.
"Police" is not 'what we do.' It's 'what we ARE!' A blase, clueless officer, like this one, is in extreme danger every minute she is working, as is everyone she works with, and everyone she ostensibly "protects."
Her training officer and her chief, for everyone's sake, need to get her on-board, get her into some other kind of work, or plan on attending funeral(s)!
/John
(I assume that the above “interview” began as a chiropractor attempting to get to the source of the back pain; police duty belts are commonly implicated. From time to time I either see someone carrying openly in town or, worse yet, one of my students showing up with one of those “cool” holsters, with a magazine pouch mounted on the holster itself, just forward of the top of the slide of the pistol. The problem is that we normally retain the pistol in the shooting hand while reloading. Thus, those who carry concealed are better served by carrying spare magazines on the non-dominant side. In uniform, some functional officers may carry in a horizontal pouch, which, while worn on the dominant side, presents the base of the magazine to the non-dominant hand. An officer who has not done reloads in training, in the academy and in service, has been sold short. Perhaps she was merely flustered at that point, by the questions she was unable to answer but someone who can’t think on her feet needs to find another line of work. Yes, the plural on “spare magazines” is intentional – 99% of malfunctions will be resolved with a reload, with no need for further diagnosis.)
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To build on what Ratcatcher posted, Whether talking across tables may be rude, if it helps get you home at night chuck decorum. at least if they are looking up occasionally to talk to the guys at the next table they have a better chance of seeing something or some one out of place around them.
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From a friend:
I have learned a few things of interest re: the shooting of the 4 Officers in Lakewood WA.
My sources are involved with the investigation and the information as accurate as possible at this time. Three of the officers were killed by head shots and one was killed by a neck shot. I believe that this suspect was very aware that most officers wear body armor. The suspect expended 6 rounds from a .38 cal revolver and one shot from a 9MM. One of the officers was able to get off two rounds with his Glock .40. One round struck the suspect in the lower torso. Witnesses observed the suspect in an altercation with one of the officers in the doorway of the business near the end of the incident.
After being treated and driven around by friends the suspect stole a car which was a clunker and stalled. He left it in the roadway with the hood up. A patrol officer observed the veh and ran the plate. The car was reported stolen. He was in his car doing the paper work on recovering the stolen car when he saw the suspect approaching him from the rear. The suspect was probably intent on shooting the officer from behind and perhaps taking the police veh. The officer exited his veh and confronted and challenged the suspect. The suspect ran around the police veh and reached into his pocket or waistband area as if arming himself. The officer fired and hit the suspect at least twice killing him.
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Thanks for the FACTUAL information RC.
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I had not read that they were head shots but just assumed it. Having your partner's brains sprayed across your face will probably delay your response reflex by several tenths of seconds. Sadly, that delay was a luxury that they did not have.
May the perp rot in hell and those who aided and abetted rot in prison.
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Just a question, is it usual for LEO's in uniform to meet up at coffee shops before starting work to catch up on paper work? Just seems rather strange behaviour isnt that what the station is for?
I have been thinking the same thing
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It is just as well the mutt was killed, any one who targets cops like that is an animal with no regard for punishment or consequences. This is the type of predator who, rather than stick up a citizen would kill them and then search their pockets.
A true "Menace to society". In the real old days the type of predators were called "Outlaws" and could be killed on sight.
The reasoning was that since they refused to abide by the rules of civilization, the law, They were outside the law and had no claim on it's protections.
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It is just as well the mutt was killed, any one who targets cops like that is an animal with no regard for punishment or consequences. This is the type of predator who, rather than stick up a citizen would kill them and then search their pockets.
A true "Menace to society". In the real old days the type of predators were called "Outlaws" and could be killed on sight.
The reasoning was that since they refused to abide by the rules of civilization, the law, They were outside the law and had no claim on it's protections.
Thats old school Icelandic law. There are are a fair few anarcho-capitalist Libertarians who advocate for it. "We sentence you to death, you're free to go". ;) The idea being that enforcement of law and order is a voluntary contract. Opt out if you want, but good luck and don't come crying to me when someone robs you blind. I think its a bad iea, but an interesting one.
FQ13
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It's real old Ireland as well.
I haven't put much thought into whether it's a good idea or not, (it would eliminate all possibility of rehabilitation ) But it would certainly make "Varmint hunting" a lot more interesting.
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That philosophy predates Icelandic and Ireland, England and Scotland and comes from old Norse law...
"In the instance of outlawry, or irredeemable crimes, Viking law "did not aspire to improve the moral condition of the criminal and try to make him a better man, except through the fear of punishment." Rather, the object of Viking law with respect to irredeemable crimes was "to prevent private revenge, and stop people taking matters into their own hands." Irredeemable crimes were punished by the confiscation of all property from an offender and the outlawing of the offender from society. Murder was one of the irredeemable crimes. "Men could be slain with impunity, and were irredeemable" by a free man "if they were found guilty with the following women" . . . one's wife, sister, daughter, mother, stepmother, brother's wife, or son's wife. The slaying of a lawman was also considered to be an irredeemable crime. Under Viking law, "an insane man who committed murder, though no accounted responsible for his actions, was expelled from the country."
Gotta love the thought process of my Ancestors.....
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It's real old Ireland as well.
I haven't put much thought into whether it's a good idea or not, (it would eliminate all possibility of rehabilitation ) But it would certainly make "Varmint hunting" a lot more interesting.
You're a wry one, Tom. Just when you get us to thinking you're turning liberal on us, you pull a switch. I like the way you think.
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Thats old school Icelandic law. There are are a fair few anarcho-capitalist Libertarians who advocate for it. "We sentence you to death, you're free to go". ;) The idea being that enforcement of law and order is a voluntary contract. Opt out if you want, but good luck and don't come crying to me when someone robs you blind. I think its a bad iea, but an interesting one.
FQ13
Well, actually, it goes back a lot farther than that. The Greeks had ostracism, which was not a permanent condition, but you had to hightail it out of Athens if the ostraka fell against you.
The Romans had a way to vote you an enemy of the Senate and people of Rome, at which point all Roman citizens were obligated to harm you in any way they could, up to and including killing you. No crime against you would ever be brought to a trial, and no one suffered for anything they did to you after you were so declared. Of course, In Caesar's case, there were some repercussions for those who stood against him, but that was more personal, not the official action of the Senate or people.
Probably goes back much farther than these 2, but I am tired (I stayed up way too late watching Miller's Crossing again) and my brain is on hiatus until further notice.
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...the pipes, the pipes, they're calling. Fom glen to glen to glen and down the mountainside. God I love that movie, best shootout scene ever. ;D
FQ13
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can't we just call it redneck justice and leave it at that.
There are many people in jail right now that I would not lose a single wink of sleep after puting 230 grains in thier forehead.
Take that guy that kidnaped that young girl and held her for 16 years, raping her, and fathering children with her.
I see it as my duty to kill that bastard in the most painful way I can come up with, if for some reason he gets off and is released( not going to happen) he won't last 30 seconds out side of jail before he is killed.