The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ericire12 on December 03, 2009, 12:55:04 PM
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/03/hk-wins-usmc-iar-competition-big-news/
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/12/marine_IAR_120209w/
The Marine Corps has selected the infantry automatic rifle made by Heckler & Koch as the weapon that will replace the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon in infantry fire teams, a senior service official told Marine Corps Times on Wednesday.
The H&K IAR “was truly the best in the class on multiple levels and will finally allow the billet of automatic rifleman to be performed as intended without the disruption of the squad integrity that the M249 created,” Chief Warrant Officer 5 Jeffrey Eby, the Corps’ senior gunner, said in an e-mail.
Like the SAW, each IAR finalist is built for 5.56mm ammunition. Unlike the SAW, they are not designed to operate with a 200-round drum, a point of contention for some Marines concerned about a loss of firepower. The IAR is designed to use the same 30-round magazine used with the M16, although industry, including FN Herstal, is also developing high-capacity 5.56mm magazines for the weapon that could hold 100 or 150 rounds.
The H&K IAR is the lightest of the four weapons the Corps tested this summer, after selecting finalists for the competition in December 2008. It weighs 7.9 pounds empty, with a barrel length of 16.5 inches and a collapsible stock that extends from 33 to 36.9 inches, company officials have said. It has a gas-operated system and fires from the closed-bolt position.
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I thought the M249 could use a standard AR type magazine too!
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I thought the M249 could use a standard AR type magazine too!
Yes! I know, because it was just on American Rifleman last night. I can't remember long enough for having read about it in the mag.
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So no more dedicated automatic rifleman? What do they mean by 'disruption of squad integrity.' Are they just going to go with a separate weapons team for sustained automatic fire like back in the day.
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With H&K being a German company with plants in the U.S. and many other contries, will this be a fully United States developed and manufactured weapon?
I know that FN has roots overseas as well, but my understanding is that the military weapons they produced for us were fully American.
What will be the status of H&K?
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Maybe it's just me, but it kinda seems like they are not replacing anything here. It looks to me like you are replacing a dedicated machine gun with yet another M4/M16 clone. And no beta mags? ::)
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Maybe it's just me, but it kinda seems like they are not replacing anything here. It looks to me like you are replacing a dedicated machine gun with yet another M4/M16 clone. And no beta mags? ::)
The photo with the article leads you to beleive that it is just another M4, but the article says SAW. Confusing! I haven't been in the military but I play one in the backyard, but according to friends that have children in the sandbox and operate SAW, it is one big heavy sucker to carry around and uses combo of either belted ammo or M16 mags.
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The IAR project's premise is only to give the Marines a weapon that delivers a high rate of fire but light enough to fight with and can blend in with the M4s and M16s around. That way the guy with the full auto doesn't automatically become the primary target. I'm curious why they went with the closed bolt design, then again it is a piston system and not gas impingement so it might not get as hot in the chamber.
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My understanding is they are only replacing about 2000 of the 10,000 SAWs with this. Also, more of a squad will have these, not just a SAW gunner. I'm wondering myself, seems like a light-weight replacement, no belt-feed or anything.
Besides, H&K still thinks we suck, and they hate us.
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They're replacing a machinegun with a rifle. How stupid can they get?
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They're replacing a machinegun with a rifle. How stupid can they get?
Well, considering who is the Apologizer Commander in Chief these days, what do you think? ? ? ? >:(
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I am by no means top brass in the Corp but I think the crux of the issue is portability. SAW's or M249's are heavy bulky rifles, they don't pack well in troop carriers and cost the operator speed. The reload time for a SAW is a far bit more than just a mag change and the belt isn't as full proof. While the saw can be fired the from the standing position it is difficult and cannot be acomplished on the fly. Most Marines report the need to go prone to attain any level of effective accuracy. Try keeping up with your squad when you keep doing belly flops just to be able to send rounds that count. Lastly the current mil stradegy is changing, the recent move to the M110 to replace the m24/40A3 has a similar goal and that is to make the troops blend in and thus take away some of the "high value" target concept.
It pays to listen.
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Well, considering who is the Apologizer Commander in Chief these days, what do you think? ? ? ? >:(
The project started a few years ago because of the urban fighting in Iraq. LWRC had a prototype on Futureweapons a couple of years ago but they weren't given the contract.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVHLvtArC_g&feature=related
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Mag-fed SAW's work better than belt-fed in a fast moving combat environment. Belts hang-up, get twisted and are hard to transport even neat plastic boxes, especially when you have 200rds of ammo, does weigh a bit too. Mag-feed on the M249 has always sucked and the position makes it hang up a lot. The USMC wants an easily portable unit that integrates better in a squad with M-4's and makes shoot and scoot easier.
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Disclaimer: I have not looked into this more than a quick look this AM when the story appeared.
MY question is this - what the heck is the difference between and IAR and an M-16 on full-auto?
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Disclaimer: I have not looked into this more than a quick look this AM when the story appeared.
MY question is this - what the heck is the difference between and IAR and an M-16 on full-auto?
These might help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjMH94PuT_I
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The right amount of corporate money, in the right polititians pocket, and our whole military would be carrying:
(http://daisy.com/shopping/skin1/graphics/sectionheader_daisy.gif)
You think the AR beat out the M14 for legitimate reasons?
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416 is basically a piston AR, right?
Sounds like a way for mid-level brass get piston guns into the squad w/o dealing with politicians.
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These might help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjMH94PuT_I
OK, the H&K 416 is an interesting weapon. However, let me rephrase the question:
What is the difference between and IAR and an M-16 on full-auto when used as a SAW?
I see no real difference in firepower, capacity, rate of fire, or anything else between them. One's a piston and apparently can fire with the receiver underwater and the other (actually, an M4 and I asked about the M-16) explodes rather nastily if you try it.
But as a SAW, what is the difference between the IAR and the M-16A3 as used by the Marines? What will the Marines get if they replace the SAW in a squad with a handful of IARs? I don't see the value.
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Or maybe they HAVEN'T.
http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2009/12/h-k-woops.html
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OK, the H&K 416 is an interesting weapon. However, let me rephrase the question:
What is the difference between and IAR and an M-16 on full-auto when used as a SAW?
I see no real difference in firepower, capacity, rate of fire, or anything else between them. One's a piston and apparently can fire with the receiver underwater and the other (actually, an M4 and I asked about the M-16) explodes rather nastily if you try it.
But as a SAW, what is the difference between the IAR and the M-16A3 as used by the Marines? What will the Marines get if they replace the SAW in a squad with a handful of IARs? I don't see the value.
Path,
I don't know about its future in the USMC, but I believe it's biggest advantage is that it is supposed to be more reliable than either the M-16 or M-4. Here's another video you may have seen already but it puts its advantages out clearly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtIDLFSlxOo
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WOW. Disapointing tests in that video. The dust sheild was closed when he gently brushed sand over the rifle, he shook all the water out before fireing it after it was in the bucket. I didn't see anything an M16 / M4 wouldn't pass. :(
Seemed a bit big and bulky, but nice 40mm though.
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I may surely be 100% crazy to say this, but, if adopting any new rifle, why not address all the complaints troops have had about caliber?
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probably the biggest reason for the change is that an open bolt like the saw will sometimes jam on the first round ( hence the LWRC ) not so bad at 300 yards terrible at 3 feet. basically they using the saw for something it was not designed for, might as well give them mp5's .