The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: WIshooter on December 07, 2009, 04:00:34 PM
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I'm new to the forum, but have been enjoying downrange radio, best defence and shooting gallary for some time. I would like to thank Michael Bane, Rob Pincus, Michael Janich and Marshal Halloway for what you guys do. You have helped to make my family safer and more informend.
I am hoping to gather some information and advice on the problem of how to try to defend your child and yourself from an attack while you are holding them. I realize that awareness, avoidance, good manners and humility go a long way. These things may be the most important part of self defence in my opinion, however counting on them exclusively may be deadly.
My specific situation is that I have a 3 year old. We practice things like how to run as fast as I can while holding her (she has alot of fun with this). The "hide in the closet drill" in her room and mine, I have tried to reinforce these areas (she has fun with this also). I have made up a duffle bag that I use as a prop to hold while shooting 1 handed, and deploying and using a pocket knife for practice. I can shoot in my back yard so this helps.
Another thing I started doing as a sort of mental exersise: when I'm in a store or public place I ask myself as I move around "what if this person decided to attack". What would I do. This has seemed to help with my awareness and becomes more of a second nature thing as the years go by.
I live in Wisconsin so I can not CC a firearm for self defence, but this doesn't seem to change the problem of a close range ambush. I would still need to fend off an attack and create distance, all of which would have to be accomplished while holding the most important part of my world.
I'm looking for some basic fundimentals I can apply to this kind of problem. If anybody has good ideas I would love to hear them, and if you have any links to material on this subject I would really appreciate it. Sorry for the long winded post.
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First welcome aboard! Second, it sucks that you can't CC, Hell Wi. gave us Joe MacCarthy and Vince Lombardi, you'd think y'all could manage a ccw program. ;) Beyond that, gun or no gun, I'd deploy the Monty Python drill (as distinct fom the Mozambique drill) when defending a child. To wit, Run Away, Run Away! Shield the kid and go.Figure that they might miss and your odds of getting to safety and living long enough for the EMTs to stop you from bleeding out are better than your odds of bringing a knife to a gunfight. Even if I were strapped, if it were my kid in a hostage situation, I'd say that everyone else was on their own and make for an exit, and pray that God does look out for children and fools. If thats not an option, I have no advice to give other than to agree to whatever they want while you play for time. Pride is cheap, kids are priceless.
FQ13
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I absolutley agree about the run away part. I practice running as fast as I can while holding my daughter, and have found that if I holder diagonal across my chest with both arms I can go fairly fast while not making it hard on her....she loves this and I find myself doing it more than I want sometimes... It is absolutely the first thing to do in my mind. But if I find somebody charging me out of left field, it might be the second option after don't get tackeled or stabbed.
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I think I have heard this discussed before, either here or in an interview with Mossad Ayoob.
I don't recall hearing any advice better than run away even in CCW states.
Best I can suggest is use your free hand to block, do anything you can to gain distance and make as much noise as possible to attract attention.
Maybe carry a rock in your pocket, a poor distance weapon is better than none at all.
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Distance will be key, an initial assault on you while your either carrying your child or holding his/her hand is a tremendous threat.
One that even in a non CCW state could be considered a lethal threat easily. Those LEO batons, stun gun, not really in favor of pepper spray while holding a child. wind, fighting etc,...
Hand to hand, all bets are off, kick to the groin, gouging of eyes, etc,... if the assault doesn't stop, your in for the fight of your life and your child's life.
Pocket knife, lethal force of any kind, will have to be considered. Your child will survive being "dropped" so you can defend yourself and your family.
As a father, that would be one of the worst attacks I can imagine. I would run for distance, and if not possible, I would literally go to rage mode, child down, retaliation of a swift and blinding nature with anything at my disposal.
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There is a company called Safe-Pack or something that carries a line of products that provide ballistic protection. Won't help against a blade (just ask a cop about bullet proof vests and knives) but if you can get a decent size backpack on her and yourself, you have some protection.
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The Best Defense against this type of situation is situational awareness and to recognize the threat and prevent it. You have done a great job by playing situations in your head and figured out the options.
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I agree with completely with Bulldog, BUT, as those 4 Cops in Wa. showed, even trained pros can be ambushed. No one is 100% alert 100% of the time.
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You are right. If someone in your group or family is always on guard then you are better off. One person is on guard at a time and the others rest so as not to stress one person. Even at walmart while you are putting grocerys in the trunk, someone is on alert.
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There was a segment on TBD that covered this. It detailed how to position a person you are trying to defend while shooting. As far as HOLDING a child, as in in your arm? The basic advice is the same: shield them with your body. Put them behind you. I sometimes run an USPSA stage where we're required to hold a prop while engaging and shooting targets. This prop is normally a paint can, but it could be anything including a doll. Learn to shoot one handed, off handed, off balance, and in strange body positions.
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i worked in close protection for a few years and protocol for a team was to get the principal the hell out of dodge.
with 1 BG (body guard not bad guy) you are supposed to stand behind and to the left of the principal. which gives you all around protection. if you stand in front then your principal can get taken from behind which you are not covering.
how this relates to protecting your kid in the store?
just walk behind him. this way you can assess the situation better than having to look around to find your kid and protect him, you always know where he is.
if you do have a contact then just push him onto the deck and take out the threat.
hope this helps.
if you have any Q's than feel free to PM me.
jake
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I think a lot of the Michael Janich gross motor skills for unarmed and edged weapons would be invaluable for you and yours. A quality edged weapon or two(4,6,8...you decide ;D ) along with a very powerful hand-held EDC light which could be used for reinforced striking/kubaton defense would set you a little more at ease with the whole unarmed aspect. But along with this comes a different training mindset, which Mr. Janich can help with. Training to shoot someone is hard enough. Training to do it will holding a little one is harder. Now deploying an edged weapon, while holding a child ,and most likely scaring the fragile mindset of the littleone when they see the active felon disemboweled. This is probably the hardest. So think it though prior. Then seek training. Then when you get some FIND MORE!
Just opinions though.
Having little ones this is a serious "Papa Bear on Point" subject, so good luck and God bless.
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I think a lot of the Michael Janich gross motor skills for unarmed and edged weapons would be invaluable for you and yours. A quality edged weapon or two(4,6,8...you decide ;D ) along with a very powerful hand-held EDC light which could be used for reinforced striking/kubaton defense would set you a little more at ease with the whole unarmed aspect. But along with this comes a different training mindset, which Mr. Janich can help with. Training to shoot someone is hard enough. Training to do it will holding a little one is harder. Now deploying an edged weapon, while holding a child ,and most likely scaring the fragile mindset of the littleone when they see the active felon disemboweled. This is probably the hardest. So think it though prior. Then seek training. Then when you get some FIND MORE!
Just opinions though.
Having little ones this is a serious "Papa Bear on Point" subject, so good luck and God bless.
Its not the mental scarring I'd be worried about. I ain't joe Kung Fu. I also have neither the time nor inclination to become one either. Its why I carry a gun. I live a fairly safe lifestyle, and the odds of using it are low. Still, a few hours a month practising to maintain skills are time well spent. The hundreds of hours to learn and maintain a martial art are a different story. I would not trust myself with a childs life against an armed and roughfly equal opponent, let alone several if I were armed with a knife. Thats why they are in the bad guy business and I teach school. It seems that step one of SD is knowing your limitations and adapting. Then you practice situational awareness to either avoid the bad things or see a chance to run away when it hapens. Awareness, decisiveness and violence of action seem to be key.
FQ13
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Do it first, do it fast, and do something foul. All that stuff "gentlemen " don't do ? That's your starting point, nut kicking, eye gauging,then get nasty.
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I ain't joe Kung Fu. I also have neither the time nor inclination to become one either. Its why I carry a gun.
I agree with this statement. You have made the right choice for yourself. Possibly. I do not pretend to know you well enough to contradict the statements.
What I am referring to is the fact that the origional poster WIshooter I am hoping to gather some information and advice on the problem of how to try to defend your child and yourself from an attack while you are holding them. I realize that awareness, avoidance, good manners and humility go a long way. These things may be the most important part of self defence in my opinion, however counting on them exclusively may be deadly..............and.........I live in Wisconsin so I can not CC a firearm for self defence, but this doesn't seem to change the problem of a close range ambush. I would still need to fend off an attack and create distance, all of which would have to be accomplished while holding the most important part of my world.
I am giving him the best advice,IMHO, in weapons,training and mindset. Because you,FQ, chose not to be "joeFU" and carry a gun at times with minimal training is a choice. This is a choice he does not have the liberty to make or i want either. Now if it were me in his/that situation , I would train in the gym with heavy weights and serious cardio and seek nutrition advice to pack on SERIOUS SIZE and STRENGTH, then seek the Dojan for empty hand, striking weapons, OC's, and Edged Weapons to be the next Tex-'Chuck-VanDamn-Segal-Janich-BruceLee'-caliber that was possible and give any amount of time pain and/or suffering preparing for the worst to provide protection for my girls. To some degree or level I follow this.
Where we can carry a concealed weapon,FQ, I would still recommend Mr. Janich for, at minimum, some empty hand and employing edged weapons for primary weapon/gun retention basics. Knowing how to punch someone in the throat or stick your thumb in the bastards eye or uses of "Gross Motor Skills" is a good piece of knowledge for your repertoire.
P.S. Every CCL holder should be a BlackBelt in verbal deescalation, but that is just an opinion also.
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Personally if I could not carry I would remain lazy but wear a Hand grenade for a necklace.
F U, If I'm going, we're ALL going. ;D
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Personally if I could not carry I would remain lazy but wear a Hand grenade for a necklace.
F U, If I'm going, we're ALL going. ;D
Another reference to Tex Cobb in "Uncommon Valor" . The only thing is you forgot the kick to the nads. I will let you insert it where needed.
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Another reference to Tex Cobb in "Uncommon Valor" . The only thing is you forgot the kick to the nads. I will let you insert it where needed.
Do it first, do it fast, and do something foul. All that stuff "gentlemen " don't do ? That's your starting point, nut kicking, eye gauging,then get nasty.
I remembered ;D
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All is right now Tom. ;)
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Got to find my copy of Uncommon Valor and watch again tonight. From Sailor " Randall TEX Cobb "
" that japanese martial arts bullshit, is fixin to get real expensive "
Back on thread, You are obviously willing to practice and have been practicing, both alone and with your child, congrats on that.
There is no one solution here, lot of decent approaches have been given, Escape is best, but not always possible, an old trick is a 20 dollar bill with a few ones rubber banded around a match book to look thicker, toss it passed your opponent as an offering while you and child run the other way. Putting the child down and behind you, and then being the most vicious you can be is definitely another. The child will be a lot more scarred if she witnesses your demise than the ass whooping given to another in her behalf.
Surprised so far that Rob or Michael J, have not responded.
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This is a great topic for discussion, and a very important topic since you dont really hear this discussed many places. I have two small children, so I am sort of "in the mix" when it comes to this area and it is something I continually think about.
I have come to the conclusion that I and my kids are probably the most vulnerable to attack in a parking lot or perhaps a park or similar setting.... And in that case, basic rules for parking lot/open area survival apply. Like, Bulldog pointed out.... awareness is the biggest key to survival, or at least your best way to increasing your odds. I try to do everything in my power to keep my head on a swivel and try to find the threat before it finds me. Parking further away in the parking lot where there are no other surrounding cars can also help this. Also, if we are out at a store that has shopping carts, then the kids are in the shopping cart the entire time or my wife is in charge of carrying the kids and/or holding kids hands..... at least that way my hands are free and movement is not hindered in anyway.
We talked briefly on a past thread about parking lot safety with small kids.....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4732.0
..... with the focus being on the buckling and unbuckling of kids in car seats in the parking lot. This is a death trap, and its a time when you really have to stay focused in order to not let yourself be sucked into what can be a major blind spot. Each vehicle is different, but you really need to find a method that will allow you to either buckle up your kids from inside the locked car or a method of being able to still survey the parking lot while buckling them up "in the blind". You just have to fight the urge and keep your head outside the vehicle and keep looking around as you get them in their seats.
Luckily, I atleast have the option of bringing a gun to the fight. In your particular case, I think you need to probably see what other weapons (Knives, baton, spray, etc) you can legally carry that may atleast give you some type of advantage in an all out fight or atleast give you a chance to flee
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an old trick is a 20 dollar bill with a few ones rubber banded around a match book to look thicker, toss it passed your opponent as an offering while you and child run the other way.
Brilliant!
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Or drop it short of him and kick his teeth through the back of his head when he bends over to pick it up.
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Good point Tom, I never said the BG would be standing when I kicked his teeth in. Or nads either now that i think about it. 8)
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Best thing about kicking some one when they're down is you don't have to lift your leg so high.
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Escape is best, but not always possible, an old trick is a 20 dollar bill with a few ones rubber banded around a match book to look thicker, toss it passed your opponent as an offering while you and child run the other way.
Brilliant!
Actually, keeping said lump of bills loose is better. When you throw them, they can scatter, further distracting the BG and buying you yet another second or so.
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I think what most are saying on this one is put as many tools in your tool box and use the best one when the need arises. Practice with a firearm, knife, pepper spray, lead sap, and kicking someones chicklets out.
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I think what most are saying on this one is put as many tools in your tool box and use the best one when the need arises. Practice with a firearm, knife, pepper spray, lead sap, and kicking someones chicklets out.
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Keep a really soiled diaper with you and slap them in the face with it. Game over.
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Keep a really soiled diaper with you and slap them in the face with it. Game over.
;D ;D
Sh*t grenade.
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Thanks for the interesting, thought-comelling question and for the great discussion.
WIshooter, your head is already very much in the right place and the steps you have taken to incorporate practical drills are excellent. The "duffel bag training aid" is also a great move toward adding proper context to your training.
One drill you might want to consider adding to the mix is the "grown ups are too fat" drill that I used to do with my daughter and her Girl Scout friends (my wife was a troop leader and we were very actively involved in the troop activities, which included self-defense/anti-abduction training for the girls). Basically, you explain that there are great hiding places for kids that grown ups are to fat to fit into. Under a parked car, under a porch, or any other tight area where the child fits but an adult can't get in to grab him/her. Make it a game and look for such places as you walk in public. If your child points out any that are unsafe, take the opportunity to explain why and point out an alternative.
Although your child should understand the defensive potential of the drill and be able to do it independently, you should also have a key word to start the game, like "fat." When he/she hears it, the goal is to find a hiding place as quickly as possible without running a great distance.
An important part of the "game" is also having a key word to let him/her know that it's time to come out. When that word is spoken, his/her job is to come out--now.
If you are forced to defend yourself and fighting one-handed doesn't look like a good option, use the "game" to allow your child to get to temporary safety while you solve the problem. Then use the key word to get him/her out and flee the area.
Another option is to consider the "area denial" potential of pepper spray. If you have to run, leave a cloud behind you and run through a choke point as you go. Anyone who chooses to chase you will have to suck on a cloud of OC to do so.
I hope this helps. Keep up the great work.
Stay safe,
Mike