The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: D.R. Middlebrooks on December 15, 2009, 12:34:58 PM
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FIST-FIRE Weapons Training
Personalized Firearms Training with D.R. Middlebrooks
(http://tacticalshooting.com/images/dr3.jpg)
World Champion Shooter & Professional Firearms Trainer…
Now offering training for Police, Military and Qualified Civilians…
(http://tacticalshooting.com/images/safe.jpg)
Defensive Pistol Tactical Training for ALL ages…
(http://tacticalshooting.com/images/2006_02.JPG)
Here an 8 year old student gets hands on training with a .40 STI Pistol…
(http://tacticalshooting.com/images/2006_03.JPG)
Look at the RECOIL CONTROL with gunsmoke and brass in the air…
(http://tacticalshooting.com/images/congrats.jpg)
Wendell Alcorn’s 10 yard target from the “Bang-Reload-Bang” Drill in a FIST-FIRE Class. Note: He wasn’t using sights!
For more information visit:
www.TacticalShooting.com
FIST-FIRE Weapons Training 8)
Here are some FREE Video Downloads we did for DRTV:
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/videos/drtv01.wmv
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/videos/drtv04.wmv
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/videos/drtv02.wmv
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/videos/drtv03.wmv
For more information visit:
www.TacticalShooting.com
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D.R. seen some of your stuff on DRTV...very impressive. Wish I had the money to take some instruction cause my eyes aren't what they should be and find myself unable to quickly pick up the sights.
Richard
PS: Talk MB into showing more!
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Welcome back, DR. Must be the off-season for training!! ;D ;D ;D
I have a couple of your DVDs and books, and like what I see. Being unemployed makes formal training kinda iffy for me, but someday, maybe . . . .
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Impressive pistol work!
I learned point shooting in the San Diego Sheriff's academy in 1971, but nothing like what I saw on your videos.
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Its a remake of the ole point shooting method. Not that its bad , just that its been redone over and over and over. Anyone who shoots has done this on his own. Its not rocket science. Its marketing. Merry Christmas DR
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Its a remake of the ole point shooting method. Not that its bad , just that its been redone over and over and over...
??? Uh, No...not really.
The shooting you saw on the FIST-FIRE video clips had never been done before...and there's much more you haven't seen. 8)
And it's not a remake of an old method, it's the continuing THE EVOLUTION OF TECHNIQUE. 8)
We are ALL REALLY lucky to be living in this day and age where we have television, video and the Internet. Knowledge is being shared and combined and technique is being refined all the time. And it's really a good time to be alive (even despite the political and economic challenges we face :-\).
Anyway, it's good to be back. I want EVERYONE to be careful out there this Holiday season. The economy may be down, but CRIME IS UP! :o Keep your eyes open at the mall and stay safe!
Merry Christmas! :)
D.R.
Email: intel@TacticalShooting.com
Website: www.TacticalShooting.com
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Its a remake of the ole point shooting method. Not that its bad , just that its been redone over and over and over. Anyone who shoots has done this on his own. Its not rocket science. Its marketing. Merry Christmas DR
I think we went through all this a year or so ago.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=187.0
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Just another guy promoting point shooting. Its a better mouse trap. Merry Christmas ;D
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Just another guy promoting point shooting...
No, it’s a proven System of Handgun Shooting & Fighting that really works... 8)
Just ask these guys:
http://tacticalshooting.com/testimonials.html
Cheers, ;D
D.R.
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Thanks, D.R. enjoyed those.
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Welcome to the sub-forum, D.R....
Guys, yes, D.R. is obviously selling something... but let's not focus on the labels or what other people can do with the system in a competition environment.
I'm sure that D.R. would answer specific questions about the how's & why's of his program.
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Hi Guys, :)
Thanks for all the private emails and messages. I appreciate the kind words, and “NO” I don't mind if you ask the HARD questions publicly either!! 8)
That said, I’ll be happy to answer any question regarding the FIST-FIRE System (it’s easier to that here rather than answer each one individually via PM's and Emails).
In the mean time here's what some REAL WORLD people have to say about the subject:
http://tacticalshooting.com/testimonials.html
Cheers, ;D
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
www.TacticalShooting.com
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IMHO this is inappropriate for a forum like this. I have practiced this type of shooting for years. I have no ax to grind against Midldlebrooks. I'm sure hes a good man. What disturbs me is the people who want to gain revenue from average members . Its a sad day when a forum like this condones and even makes money from a trainer who may or may not be able to deliver .
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2HOW,
Puts me in a bit of an awkward position to arbitrarily close threads about other training programs. Especially in this case, as last year someone asked a question about my program at Mr. Middlebrooks forum and he dismissed it off-hand as "Hocus Pocus Shooting" and then closed the thread when I showed up to answer questions accurately...
At any rate, I am not yet ready to say that Mr. Middlebrooks isn't prepared to actually answer specific questions... I'll take him at his word for now and wait for someone to ask a substantive question about what is behind the methodology, etc and we'll see how it goes...
-RJP
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2HOW,
Puts me in a bit of an awkward position to arbitrarily close threads about other training programs. Especially in this case, as last year someone asked a question about my program at Mr. Middlebrooks forum and he dismissed it off-hand as "Hocus Pocus Shooting" and then closed the thread when I showed up to answer questions accurately...
At any rate, I am not yet ready to say that Mr. Middlebrooks isn't prepared to actually answer specific questions... I'll take him at his word for now and wait for someone to ask a substantive question about what is behind the methodology, etc and we'll see how it goes...
-RJP
Thats here nor there Mr Pincus. Its just my opinion that a forum should be a place to discuss issues and thoughts,. Not to promote business. I tell you what , anyone wants to come and see me , ILL MAKE THEM A BETTER SHOOTER. No charge. A forum is a collaboration of different people. people with different backgrounds. Not a place to sell . If this is what this forum is , I'm done with it.
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I've trained with D.R. He made me a better point shooter. I didn't master his techniques as some of his students have but I was greatly improved.
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I've trained with D.R. He made me a better point shooter. I didn't master his techniques as some of his students have but I was greatly improved.
So what does that mean Don? No disrespect, but I could make you a better point shooter than when you started. Guess I need to start some kinda of point fire academy. sounds good dont it. Cmon now fellows.
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Thats here nor there Mr Pincus. Its just my opinion that a forum should be a place to discuss issues and thoughts,. Not to promote business. I tell you what , anyone wants to come and see me , ILL MAKE THEM A BETTER SHOOTER. No charge. A forum is a collaboration of different people. people with different backgrounds. Not a place to sell . If this is what this forum is , I'm done with it.
I know where you are coming from 2how ;D
IMO
if Mr. Middlebrooks wants to contribute to the general conversations of the forum, I am sure he would have some very good input he could offer with his experience, insted of just pushing one line maby he also could be a Sponsor depending how the Admin works with sponsor and as long as it would not conflict with any others here as well. ( and contribute more in the discussion)
I also do see the tough call Rob has with this one however Rob and the other Admin's have to choice to do what is needed in the spirit of this sub board
maybe the Mods could just move this thread to a different section on the forum if they want to leave it open
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That was a brilliant idea, Philw.
Happy New Year.
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Not to contribute to thread drift, but I don't have a problem with someone hawking their products and services on a forum here as long as they understand and agree to accept criticism of their product(s) or services; note I'm not talking about ad hominem or scurrilous attacks. In other words, they can not just be an informercial here....They have to be willing be a part of the give and take....
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So what does that mean Don? No disrespect, but I could make you a better point shooter than when you started. Guess I need to start some kinda of point fire academy. sounds good dont it. Cmon now fellows.
No disrespect taken 2HOW. D.R. improved my shooting as did Gabe Suarez did when I trained with him and as did Rob Pincus when I trained with him.
I see nothing wrong with people "selling" their wares on this forum (assuming the forum rules allow it). Bane, Pincus and Janich are all "selling" us their stuff here -- it's how they make a living.
You seemed, 2HOW, to be questioning whether D.R. had anything worth selling. Questioning is good. If D.R. can't satisfy your questions, you don't want to train with him (or anyone else). I got my money's worth out of him.
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On another forum, I kinda got the impression that there are just two kinds of D.R. Middlebrooks's folks.
Those that love him and are devout followers of his technique.
And then there are those that hate him. On that same forum, I read one of the detractors call D.R.'s followers "moonies". LOL! ;D
I still have an open mind about things. I am a B class USPSA shooter and an expert class IDPA shooter. I do have to say that I was impressed with the poppers getting knocked over at 50 yards or more without any sights.
I think I will send the video links to a few shooting buddies and see what they think.
D.R. , I think, is trying to change people's paradigms / dogma. And as I have recently seen just here on this forum, there is a lot of resistance to change. So, yeah, I can see where the hate is coming from. Happy New Year, folks!
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TD,
I think you may be right about the internet in general... certainly anyone who wasn't walking to the right sheet of music wasn't welcome at the Fist Fire Forums... but the specific flare up in the other forum was probably because, the defensive area has always been about exchange of ideas or information or, in a few cases, listing of actual training opportunities... never has anyone posted "look what I can do" videos and used them to try to sell a product.
-RJP
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Well...Rob... ;D.... You really can look at what I can do, by going to the link in the bottom. Or to my YouTube page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Posercam
Granted some of those videos are creeping up on 3 years of age. :o I am a much better shooter now. I am almost embarassed by those vids. I finally got a new battery for the "posercam" so one of these days I will be back at a match "rolling tape" from my hatcam.
getting back more on topic...
First, there is an incredible inertia involved with people. I mean, who doesn't get taught right from the get-go that their sight picture has to look exactly like this:
(http://www.pointshooting.com/msight2.jpg)
And then instructors inundate and/or beat into their students that they have to maintain that sight picture for the whole duration of the trigger pull....NOT a trigger jerk.
Furthermore, it is beaten into people that they have to build up a certain level of proficiency (read that as thousands of rounds downrange) so that they can call their shots. (Just for the people following along at home.... shot calling = having a mental picture of what the sights looked like the instant the gun went BANG! And then figuring from that mental picture where the bullet hit on the target)
And not to get all tin foil-ey on you, but jeesh! :o There is a huge, HUGE! segment of the gun industry that deals specifically with sights and sighting systems. There is a lot of money to be made selling the latest fiber optic this and tritium that. And, good grief! I wish I had a nickel for every mall-ninja-ish thread I came across where some guy was harping on having Back Up Iron Sights for his AR and having them co-witness with the red dot. ::)
The other forum I was talking about is very USPSA centric, so just in general, anything that has to do with self-defense tends to get poo-poo'ed fairly quickly. Up til now before taking a peek at D.R.'s fist fire system, my mantra was "Speed is a tactic....and a pretty %$^& good one at that." That was one way to dismiss anything a Tacti-Billy had to say. As in, "I can shoot a sub 6 second El Prez, can you?" Well, if you can't, then anything else you have to say has no credibility.
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Guys, yes, D.R. is obviously selling something...
Yep, and so are you, Rob. The difference is I’m selling SHOOTING TECHNIQUE, it’s what I do… 8)
but let's not focus on the labels or what other people can do with the system in a competition environment…
Where would we be without competition? ??? Martial Arts for example, have evolved more in the last 30 years than in the last 3,000. Why? Competitions like Pride, UFC, etc. The same holds true for handgun shooting. Shooting technique has evolved more in the last 30 years than in the last 300 due to competitions like IPSC, IDPA, TSA, etc...
but the specific flare up in the other forum was probably because, the defensive area has always been about exchange of ideas or information or, in a few cases, listing of actual training opportunities... never has anyone posted "look what I can do" videos and used them to try to sell a product.
-RJP
Why not? I'm selling Tactical Shooting Techniques so why not demo them? Duh? ???
Bottom Line: I've offered up evidence that FIST-FIRE works. And not just for me, but it works for my wife Barb, my Fist-Fire Instructors and numerous others as well. 8) But it won't work for anyone bogged down by the Old School Dogma of the last century... ::)
Cheers,
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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Tyler,
First, there is an incredible inertia involved with people. I mean, who doesn't get taught right from the get-go that their sight picture has to look exactly like this...
Guys who come to Combat Focus Shooting Programs, guys who come to Fist Fire and guys who come to several other programs I'm sure. The thought process isn't unique. I would love to hear some of the specifics about Fist Fire, but as the above post exemplifies hype, demo and denigration seem to be the high points. :-\
-RJP
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Here's another perspective from Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics, Inc.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI
I like the clap of thunder to announce his arrival and exit.....It's like going to Mount Olympus ;)
His background is in spec ops (Delta). And I believe he ran their training program for some time. Also, he is a USPSA Grandmaster too.
This whole discussion reminds me of when I was in college. There are certain fundamentals that are found in every course, no matter which school/instructor is teaching. The divergence comes when they attempt to apply these fundamentals in the context of competition shooting, or self defense shooting. I remember taking economic classes from professors who were in complete agreement on the fundamentals of macro economics, but were polar opposites on the application of those fundamentals to solve economic issues of the day- some were socialists and other were free market capitalists.
Using the "college" metaphor, I believe one should expose themselves to as many different schools of thought so they can and decide for themselves which works best for them. Having said this, I believe it is vital to compare whatever your chosen method(s) to the empirical evidence on the street or competition to determine if what you are doing is going to work, or is working....I hope that makes sense.....
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Hey guys, argue all you want but all this talk about fisting is givin' me the willies!
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I'm hoping for an all out "pissing" contest..... ;D
Argue all you want........ ::)
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There are pissing contests on the internet. :o No way!
;D ;D ;D
To use the sights or not use the sights, that is the question.
Well.... let me put it to you this way...
In calendar year 2008 alone, if I did the math correctly, I sent 7,200 rounds downrange just in matches alone. I really don't practice because the nearest range that I can draw from a holster is 56 miles away.
After you have sent enough rounds down range, you do figure out how sloppy you can get with your sight picture or if you can ignore the sights entirely and that is a function of distance to the target and your experience with your gun (i.e. your "muscle memory" of your "index").
I think for some people using the sights is just a way to mentally or visually confirm their "index" before they take that last little bit of slack out of the trigger and the gun goes BANG!
There are tons and tons of people out there who use their sights just like that....it's just that they:
A. have been so engrained to watch the sights, watch the sights, WATCH THE SIGHTS! that they have become mentally pre-occupied with the sights that they ignore or exclude what the rest of their body is telling them
B. haven't sent enough rounds downrange just yet get that A-HA! EUREKA! moment when they realize that their body is sending them the same signals time after time after time when the sight picture looks perfect.
C. both A and B
Just for experimentation sake...I do have to wonder what it would be like to shoot a steel match without sights on the gun:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-870601232976768260&ei=L-lAS5qfB4jUqQKX27Vs&q=posercam+smoke+and+hope#
I sometimes wonder if I could shoot the Smoke and Hope stage with my eyes closed. LOL!
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Rob Pincus wrote:
I would love to hear some of the specifics about Fist Fire, but as the above post exemplifies hype, demo and denigration seem to be the high points.
You aren't the first one to notice that about D.R. Middlebrooks's responses to inquiries about his FIST-FIRE technique.
I doubt that you will be the last.
Like I said previously, there are two camps, those that love the FIST-FIRE (aka "The moonies") and those that hate D.R. Middlebrooks and FIST-FIRE. I haven't really heard of anyone being in the middle ground.
Maybe the "hate him" crowd hates him because of his responses, like D.R. is being coy.
If I had some trade secret that I could sell, yeah, you bet, I would keep it under wraps myself. I say I can't blame D.R. for that.
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To use the sights or not use the sights, that is the question...
I don't look at it as a "either or" proposition...
As I said in my book, on the video clips and on the FIST-FIRE DVD's:
"IF you have TIME, use the sights...but TIME is usually a function of DISTANCE. The more DISTANCE you have to the threat, the more TIME you should spend on sight picture and trigger press."
Nice helmet cam, Tyler! 8)
D.R.