The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on December 17, 2009, 08:25:10 AM
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Seems more and more the little .410 is gaining popularity.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/03/winchester-pdx1-self-defense-shotshell-ammo/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/
I'm not personally a fan of the .410 pistols for much other than a "camp gun", but a little pistol grip, 18" double barrel would be fun!
Still, what's to be gained over a 12 gauge? You can manage recoil by ammo choice.
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I think it depends on the shooter.
For people who are frail from extreme age, injuries, or just plain bad health, a 410 is much better than a 12 gauge. They might not even be able to pick up and hold a 12 gauge proprely, let alone handle the recoil of firing one.
(This is also why I'm very curious about Kel Tec's new PLR-30 handgun.)
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I think if the little .22 mag. pistol had adjustable sights it'd be a great squirrel / rabbit / coon gun. I'm still hoping Ruger picks up on the .22 mag. idea as an option in the Mark III!
I've never owned a .410 in any form... Just not yet understanding the appeal. :-\ Is ammo ubber cheap like it is for .22's?
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Bane talked about the new Winchester rounds in the podcast....
I personally wonder why they are using those disc shaped rounds as apposed to traditional round buck.
p.s. I posted a long time ago that .410 buck and ball would be the way to go
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4437.msg52112#msg52112
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Is ammo ubber cheap like it is for .22's?
Nope! I wish it was but that's not the case.
The only .410 I own is my M6 Scout. Shot some clays with it last weekend.
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Bane talked about the new Winchester rounds in the podcast....
I personally wonder why they are using those disc shaped rounds as apposed to traditional round buck.
p.s. I posted a long time ago that .410 buck and ball would be the way to go
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4437.msg52112#msg52112
I'd guess the discs just allow for more bore sized projectiles in less overall cartridge length. Doesn't seem like they'd lend anything to accuracy at any range. :-\
I gotta check out that podcast.
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When box-o-truth did their review of the judge way back when, all the round buck came out the muzzle as disc shaped anyway. It is awful hard to get enough buffer, shot, AND powder into a 410 shell.
The judge really has changed the 410 the same way the keltec and ruger changed the 380. The level of performance from the new ammo is like upsizing the gun 2 sizes compared to ammo just a few years ago.
One thing I would like to see is a 45 judge load--a solid 230 grain ballistic tip hollowpoint loaded into a full-length brass case so it is 2 3/4 or 3" long to avoid jumping the gap. Not to mention it would look awesome loading something resembling a 45-110 into a concealable revolver.
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REAL MEN SHOOT .410's !
I use a .410 O/U and SXS for quail hunting. More of a challenge; either a clean hit or clean miss.
You cannot believe what the .410 will do as a hunting gun.
On doves, in Argentina, this is the gun to have. Thousands of shots a day will beat you to black and blue UNLESS you use a .410.
You would be a mazed by this gauge if you will try it.
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The .410 is a excellent gun. I tested some rounds (12 guage) that were disk like that and it would open my pattern up quicker. I think the reasoning behind this is shooting these rounds at close range through a shotgun would be a good choice for home defense in a small caliber like the .410.
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the only real diffrence between the guages is the ammount of shot.
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the only real diffrence between the guages is the ammount of shot.
AND powder TAB. Bushpilot may say clean kill or a miss, but he's wrong. There is option C, a bird that takes a pellet and dies later. I like .410 for clays and snakes, and even quail if you have the discipline to NOT take a shot that is in any way marginal, but its iffy for birds in a shotgun and silly for SD in a 4" barrel pistol. If we're talking shot guns with a 20" or so barrel (giving it adequate burn time), why not move to .20 gauge? Not much more recoil or weight and no question about the result.
FQ13
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every person i know that intelligently chooses a 410 is to handicap themselves for a greater challenge of sport or game either fur or feathered. ???
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AND powder TAB. Bushpilot may say clean kill or a miss, but he's wrong. There is option C, a bird that takes a pellet and dies later. I like .410 for clays and snakes, and even quail if you have the discipline to NOT take a shot that is in any way marginal, but its iffy for birds in a shotgun and silly for SD in a 4" barrel pistol. If we're talking shot guns with a 20" or so barrel (giving it adequate burn time), why not move to .20 gauge? Not much more recoil or weight and no question about the result.
FQ13
um you missed the point. a piece of shot going XXXX fps does not care if its fired from a 10 ga or a 22 shot shell. it still has the same speed and same energy. So as I said, the only diffrence is the ammount of shot.
I use 410 all the time for upland game hunting. it kills things just as dead,you just have to know what your shot pattern is like and shoot acordingly.
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My Grandfather's old Ward's Western Field bolt action .410, with 3" #7 shot leaves a hole slightly bigger than a beer can in 1/2" plywood. With a "smattering of pellets" around the primary impact at 15 yds.
Sure it's a football field long, and was designed for rabbit, squirrel, dove, but remove the threaded choke from the end of the barrel,
put a slug in it, and at 25 yds, will hit a target harder than a 45Colt. More than adequate for SD.
That's from a quirky, cheap .410 over 60 years old. Put it in a small easily mobile platform, and at SD distances will damn sure work. Is it my first choice? No, not really, but I don't think anyone is going to be threatening me anymore, if that's all I have time to grab and fire. If I cut 7 feet off the barrel, it would be a bad a** bolt action,,...but I'd get a Judge instead....
just my .02 cents.
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TW, that was made by Mossberg I got one for my birthday in 1972 ;D
That's the cool thing about the old time "house brands" They were the same gun as the name brand just marked for the store that sold them. There are several references where you can find out who supplied what to which stores, one is in the back of the Numrich arms catalog.
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Thanks Tom, The threaded choke is stamped Mossberg, right next to the set screw. I haven't shot the old girl in a few years, but did buy another box of Remington 3" shells before Christmas,...
In case those zombie squirrels come around,... 8)
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TW, that was made by Mossberg I got one for my birthday in 1972 ;D
That's the cool thing about the old time "house brands" They were the same gun as the name brand just marked for the store that sold them. There are several references where you can find out who supplied what to which stores, one is in the back of the Numrich arms catalog.
Yep....Like my b-i-l's Ted Williams shotgun that was sold through Sears back in the 70's I believe. It is a Winchester 1400, made for Sears, with the Ted Williams markings.
Same b-i-l has a SxS double in .410 with the rabbit ear hammers. Cool shooting little squirrel gun. I can't remember the maker off the top of my head.
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Check out the ammo from Paraklese Technologies
www.paraklesetechnologies.com/products.asp?cat=13
CD
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Look, the .410 is a toy. A very, very cool toy that I hope to someday own. I have had the opprotunity to shoot Parkers and L.C. Smiths in .410 and would love to add one to the stable. Still, for a go to hunting/SD round survey says no. A 20 gauge is just as light and much more effective. Whether its doves over a tank, or a BG in the living room, a 20 will out perform a .410 every day ending in a Y. Plus, the ammo is cheaper and more available. Save the .410 for the skeet range and quail hunts. Otherwise, use enough gun. Just my .02.
FQ13
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ericire12, isnt there buck below the discs? That would seem a good idea and I'm sure Winchester tried a lot of different combos.
Richard
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ericire12, isnt there buck below the discs? That would seem a good idea and I'm sure Winchester tried a lot of different combos.
Richard
12 pellets of shot according to what MB said in the podcast, I do not recall him saying what SIZE shot
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12 pellets of shot according to what MB said in the podcast, I do not recall him saying what SIZE shot
Its 3 for buck in 2 3/4" and 5 in 3". I'm guessing #6 for MB's quote?
FQ13
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I thought he said it was BB shot below the discs. IIRC, that's a larger size birdshot.
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There are 12 BBs behind the 3 "Defense Discs" in the Winchester .410 PDX1 rounds. BB rounds are roughly...um...BB-sized. Here's a link to comparisons of shot sizes: http://www.chuckhawks.com/shot_info.htm
Winchester's engineers told me the plates would grab the shallow Judge rifling and come out of the barrel spinning like a regular slug, and that proves to be the case in the box and a half of ammo I shot. At about 5 yards the plates cut clean round holes, clustering into about 2 inches, with the BBs patterning around the plates.
The .410 isn't going to replace my 870 12-gauge in the bedroom, but it's possible that the 12-gauge PDX ammo (3 pellets of #00 on top of a 1 ounce slug) might find a place on the side carrier.
As for the Judge, it is a brilliant purpose-designed weapon, a gun for people who don't shoot guns a lot — and there are a lot of casual shooters out there. People like me and Pincus and Janich can rail about how everyone needs to shoot more all we want, but it doesn't change the reality.
And when we talk about attacks in the close-in "hot zone," I'd take a Judge with .410 with self-defense rounds over a snub revolver or pocket semi any day of the week. The closer the attacker is to me, the faster I want the attack to stop. As harsh as it might sound, a round like the .410 PDX1 in the face would, I suspect, end any attack. I also stand by the statement I made about the prototype Judge several years back (which ended up as the Taurus ad campaign) — the Judge may be the best anti-carjacking tool I've ever come across. A lot of lead in the air is better than not a lot of lead in the air...
Michael B
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I bought an H&R Snake Tamer .410 about thirteen years ago,and it is by far the simplest shotgun I have for my family as a self defense firearm. I'll have to admit though my weapon of choice for self defese is the good'ol 12 gauge pump!
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Quick link to a video about the .410 PDX1 rounds:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Video.aspx?vid=2123&cid=23 (http://www.americanrifleman.org/Video.aspx?vid=2123&cid=23)
Note, the hull is - *gasp* - BLACK! Bad Winchester! Bad! Didn't the Black Talon media attack teach us anything? ;D
I'm going to find some of this for my Judge. I like the idea of buck and ball, err, disk.
And one with Michael:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOq9a8sAHfg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOq9a8sAHfg)
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Aren't BBs 4.5mm/.177 cal?
CD
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I believe so.