The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: joemerchant24 on December 11, 2007, 04:24:31 PM
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OK, personal safety question for you all to discuss.
I have to spend several hours every week in a classroom on a gun-free campus.
I want the tactically-smarter than I to tell me where I should sit.
The average classroom is 15" x 18" and has single door in the front of the classroom. The doors open out to the hallway and are half glass.
As I said, it is a gun-free campus so think edged defense... and just for giggles also offer suggestions if the student were armed with a handgun. You know, just for kicks.
Do you sit near the door, out of the direct sightline but close to the attack? Do you sit far from the door and the danger, but directly in the gremlins line of sight?
Discuss. Ponder. Mull. Pontificate.
MB, if you want to run this by any of your high-powered tacti-teaching type friends, such as Mr. Rauch, please feel free.
Ladies... Gentlemen... As you were.
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Question. Can you carry pepper spray or taser legally? Do you have training with the edged weapon? Also think about a walking stick which you get training on how to use. Whare to sit is another thing.
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Off the bat, I would say sit in the far corner, put other targets between you and him is only survival is your motivation. Doubtful you would have an opportunity to use any kind of walking stick, baseball bat or other blunt force weapon if the bad guy has a gun.
Pocket knife would possibly be useful in a VA Tech scenario, throwing knives - if you know how to use them! - might be better in the initial moments.
GET TRAINING!!!!!
And don't be military in fighting the last battle over and over - bad guys have some similarities, but the training would help you be Zen-like - prepare for nothing so you can be prepared for anything.
Good Luck.
PS: Join the college empty holster movement on your campus and lend support whereever and however you can.
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Concealed is concealed! Better tossed out by one then buried by six!!!!!!!!
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A KelTek P3AT does not "print" ;)
I would say sit in the row closest to the door and at the back. As the doors are half glass you can see the perp ASAP and I bet the glass is NOT bullet proof. The perp will either have to come all of the way into the class to shoot as he/she will PROBABLY not shoot through the glass and it will hinder them and frame them (if the door opens toward you) or you will have a clear shot when he opens the door (if it opens away from you) and you identify the perp.
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Or you could find out if the course is available online and stay safe at home.
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When I took drivers education, my teacher said " Always have an out" here and now if something happens, how can I escape and evade the situation? Good advice for more than driving.
1) You mentioned the size of the room and location of the door, but are there any windows, do you have a choice in seating?
2) If you have windows, could you fit through one? Is it on the 2nd or higher floor? Could you physically handle it, if you had to go out one?
3) Are all of the classrooms, configured the same? Meaning different plan for different rooms. Inspect and understand your environment. What are your potential escape routes, if you don't know, find out, are you near a stairwell, or outside door? Does the stairwell go up or down or both? Good to know in case of fire too.
4) What if any, can be used in each of your classrooms for hard cover, desks, bookshelves full of books, equipment of any kind?
5) What could be used for potential weapons, is there a flagstand, with a pointy tip? Chairs, books, a fellow students crutches? Heavy items like lamp bases etc... Can you be close to these items if needed? When you can't be armed, what are your options? Look around, your there every day, identify these items and pack that knowledge away for a rainy day.
6) BE AWARE, BE CAUTIOUS, BE PREPARED, BE SMALL, AND IF YOUR BACKS AGAINST THE WALL FIGHT AND FIGHT LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT. Superior mental attitude, will tell you whether to stand or hide.
7) I don't think there has ever been a time better than now to talk to your teachers or professors and honestly ask , ( whats our plan? if something like this happens.) Is the door lockable, does the teacher have a key? The cowardly shooter will go on to easier prey if there is something in it's way.
Good question, I don't know how old you are, but you are asking the right questions. Whole books have been written on these subjects, and a few paragraphs cannot begin to fully prepare you.
As mentioned by the other posters, GET TRAINING!!!!
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Training = Have several gun/knife courses under the belt, looking to add Krav Maga to the card file.
No guns = In Nebraska, it's more than tossed from school, it's a gun crime on the record, permit pulled, and likely loss of pistol purchase permit. As for me, I don't discuss where I carry (legally or no) on an open forum. No offense.
Windows = There are nice large ones, which are great if the shooting starts in another room. If it starts in mine, I'm plugged long before we get to the window, let alone opened and out.
CS/Taser/Stick = CS, in the form of a Guardian Angel would be useful, anything that mists or fogs in that size of a room (and the pressure differential) would be bad. Tasers are an option. In the tight quarters of the classrooms (which are all pretty much the same) a blade is more useful than a stick.
Stay home = Crime would fall dramatically if everyone stayed locked in their basement 24/7. I'm not living that way. I look at life as an odds game. I work hard to keep the odds in my favor (stay out of North O, stay aware of the surroundings, don't shop in gun-free stores (on principle), lock my doors, etc. To complete this degree, however, I have no choice but to spend 3-4 hours, twice a week, in a gun-free zone. What I choose to do in that zone is a private matter. Again, no offense.
What I've learned so far:
Tom Gresham hit it in the head when he told me 'Sometimes, there are no good answers."
If armed with a firearm, distance is good, but could be offset if I'm the first target available.
If armed with an edged weapon, distance must be closed quickly.
Unless convinced otherwise, I will likely move closer to the door side of the room, along the wall 2-3 seats back.
My reasoning:
1) The first person in that row is likely first shot.
2) Along the wall makes me invisible until the perp is in the room.
3) I am out of the direct sight line of the perp when he or she enters (90 to the side)
4) If only armed with an edged weapon, I am close enough to have a chance at not getting shot.
5) If armed with a firearm, I won't have Suzy Sorority jumping up in my front sight.
6) If I miss or overpenetrate, the only thing to get hit is a cinderblock wall.
There is no right answer. Every seat has a good/bad side. As I said, life is an odds game. I'm just looking to skew the odds toward me as much as possible.
Thanks for the replies, keep talking.
Keep in mind, this discussion is not just about me and a classroom. Think about where you will sit at the next meeting in the boardroom, or the next lecture in an auditorium, or where you'll be in church.
Skew those odds, compadres.
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As some who works in public education this is something I analyze on a regular basis. In addition to teaching karate classes to young people I teach self defense/self awareness classes to their parents/guardians. I always explain that the best way to keep from getting hurt in an attack is don't get attacked. This is the self awareness part. While not wanting students to become paranoid, I refer to the old adage from the 60s "If you aren't paranoid you aren't paying attention."
Every room, no matter where you are, is different and so your seating choice must be flexible based on the room design. I would pick a seat where I can have a good view of most of the classroom with as few people behind me as possible. I want to be able to get to the door in 3 or 4 paces but I don't want to be the "first best target" for someone coming through the door.
Constant and regular evaluation of your surroundings is they key to avoiding attack or identifying a danger.
Hope this is helpful
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Discuss. Ponder. Mull. Pontificate.
Well, if the past is any guide, and it never is, but one common thread in all these shooting is A. Ignorant Shooters B. Inadequate
response.
When the first shots are fired IMMEDIATELY THROW THINGS- books, desks, chairs, salt shakers, laptops, shoes, whatever DIRECTLY at him/her.
It will discomboobulate him/her and throw him/her off stride. These goblins are not Special Forces Assassins or Army Rangers or even 20,000 rounds a year target shooters. They are monkeys with dangerous implements who will revert to stupidity under stress when challenged.
You can not assume the goblin will come through the door. He/she could be sitting right next to you or at the desk at the end
of the aisle.
Instead of worrying about where to sit, develop a keen interest in manner and style of dress of everyone you meet. Look for weapons printing through clothes or affectations out of context with the immediate environment. Make mental notes about deportment and demeanor. You may spot trouble weeks before anything ever happens.
In the Virginia Tech shooting the guy practically sent up flares he was wacko.
DO NOT CO-OPERATE. Make him/her work for his/her moment of fame.
In the Virginia Tech situation, the guy was reloading after everyone was lined up against the wall.
Why make the simple complicated? Remember THROW THINGS and DO NOT CO-OPERATE and your survival odds will skyrocket.
That is all.
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Well, if the past is any guide, and it never is, but one common thread in all these shooting is A. Ignorant Shooters B. Inadequate
response.
When the first shots are fired IMMEDIATELY THROW THINGS- books, desks, chairs, salt shakers, laptops, shoes, whatever DIRECTLY at him/her.
It will discomboobulate him/her and throw him/her off stride. These goblins are not Special Forces Assassins or Army Rangers or even 20,000 rounds a year target shooters. They are monkeys with dangerous implements who will revert to stupidity under stress when challenged.
You can not assume the goblin will come through the door. He/she could be sitting right next to you or at the desk at the end
of the aisle.
Instead of worrying about where to sit, develop a keen interest in manner and style of dress of everyone you meet. Look for weapons printing through clothes or affectations out of context with the immediate environment. Make mental notes about deportment and demeanor. You may spot trouble weeks before anything ever happens.
In the Virginia Tech shooting the guy practically sent up flares he was wacko.
DO NOT CO-OPERATE. Make him/her work for his/her moment of fame.
In the Virginia Tech situation, the guy was reloading after everyone was lined up against the wall.
Why make the simple complicated? Remember THROW THINGS and DO NOT CO-OPERATE and your survival odds will skyrocket.
That is all.
Good points, although throwing things will make the bad guy focus on you. But that's ok, as noted it will divert him somewhat and maybe discombobulate the shooter a bit.
As in the Co. Springs church, yelling also works. Jeanne Assam kept yelling Surrender at the shooter as she shot and moved toward him. In a different situation, yelling will also draw attention toward you and disorient the shooter a little.
However, you must first decide - what is my mission, escape or confrontation? If you're trying to escape, drawing the shooter's attention is probably a tad counter-productive. On the other hand, if your intent is to stop the shooter, move towards him rapidly, keeping him disoriented if it is appropriate.
HOWEVER, DO NOT HAVE A SET PLAN!
The shooter is almost guaranteed to do something not in your plan. Rather, train your reactions. Assam took cover at first (training) then realized it was an active shooter scenario, and moved toward the danger with her weapon. (more training). When the shots get fired, you probably can't trust your mind to reason out everything, you have reaction (body trained) time.
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However, you must first decide - what is my mission, escape or confrontation? If you're trying to escape, drawing the shooter's attention is probably a tad counter-productive. On the other hand, if your intent is to stop the shooter, move towards him rapidly, keeping him disoriented if it is appropriate.
Fancy way of saying Fight or Flight. If you are trapped in a room with only one exit, flight is not really an option. Remember, the best defense is a good offense.
I guarantee if you boink him/her in the head with a 4 lb textbook or bruise his/her gun arm or hand or thump him/her in the chest, his/her lack of training will kick in and he/she will rapidlly lose all focus.
Ideally, your classmates will be inspired by your actions and will mimic you.
If 10- 20 4 lb textbooks come flying from all directions at his/her head, the dynamics of the situation will change rapidly.
You can shout if you want!
Practice in your home at the top of your lungs :
1."GUN"
2."Get Him"
3. Throw book from across the room as hard as you can at a standing manikin made from pants and shirt stuffed with newspaper. Aim for the head made from a old stuffed teddy bear with a hat on.
Rinse, repeat.
As Colonel Jeff Cooper once said: Your mind is your primary weapon. Use it.
Best regards,
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Thanks for all the input.
Deciding what I would do is not the problem. There's only one door in and out of most of these classrooms, so the tango needs to be addressed before escape.
John Farnam (and many others) have noticed that victims who react quickly, decisively, and violently are the most likely to walk away from a deadly attack. As those three factors decrease, so do survival odds.
To again borrow from Col. Guru, I am never "unarmed." I have a brain, which is the weapon. Everything else is merely a tool of efficiency.
I had an idea where to park my kiester, but I know I'm rarely the smartest person in the room.
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Joe, I guess I'm going to add a third cent to my first 2...Reading some of the other posts as well as your followup posts I see some very good info. I hope you might re-consider your dismissing the use of a "stick". My original post might have been misleading. I'm not talking about a walking staff or an ordinary cane. On a recent episode of "Personal Defense TV" (also on Outdoor Channel) Massad Ayoob from Lethal Force Institute in NH showed and demonstrated a walking stick designed specifically for use as a defensive tool. He also recommended training like I did. You seem like the type of individual who wants to/will get that training. MA training specifically designed for this type of weapon is available and they can show how it adds 2+' to your reach and power to your attack. An edged weapon can then be used to suppliment the defense if nesessary. Check out LFI web site for phone info and e-mail but his e-mail seems to always be full!
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My 2 cents
The sooner you can evaluate a threat the better off you will be.
It's better to see the entrance of the building than the hallway. It's better to see the hallway than the door.
If it sounds like gunfire, act like it is until proven otherwise. Move to a more defenseable position.
Anything you can do to disrupt the attacker the better. Make them stop and think, disrupt their plans and begin to react to you.
Most of these idiot have a script on what they think is going to happen. When you mess it up they don't adapt to the counterattack.
Sorry but healthy people with canes or walking sticks set off my targeting radar. This idea is pretty sneeky
http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html
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I understand the value of a walking stick or defensive umbrella, but i still see them as limited in value in this scenario.
Classrooms are small and densely packed with desks. The only way to engage a BG (without a firearm) in this scenario is to close and battle at close range with an impact or edged weapon. This is why I opted to sit close to the door-side wall, a few desks in. This keeps me from being the closest person, it keeps me out of direct sight, yet keeps me close enough to engage.
There just isn't enough room for an umbrella length weapon to be brought to bear. An ASP or kubaton, maybe. The more likely choice is an edged weapon coupled with firearm control and disarming techniques.
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Remember that you can thrust up and down the center line of an attacker with these things beside just beating the living snot out of the BG. Basic bayonet drills would be good practice.
William April teaches all you need to do is move the barrel away from pointing at you. That's the big problem of being to close with a firearm, especially a rifle. So any blocks or parries that acomplishs that gains you time to close and disarm , close and end the attack or disengage and get to cover.
The fact that you are working this in your head puts you way ahead of the game. Good luck with class. I assume the school has not heard from the former knuclehead in your blog?
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LOL... the former knucklehead....
If you mean the guy in my graduate class... he was back in class last week. No comment from anyone as to WTF is happening.
So, one week he's enough of a threat to justify moving the class to a locked room, the next week it's business as usual?
Most of us thought the prof may have overreacted, considering the events of earlier in the day (Westroads is about 40 blocks down Dodge from campus), but it's still damn weird.
Although the timing with him was odd, this topic is really borne out of a few weeks of tactical pondering. I addressed the carry/no carry dilemma to my satisfaction on campus, let's leave it at that, and had then turned my attention to other things. Then it struck me that I was sitting in the middle of the class, up toward the front (as usual) and that likely wasn't the smartest locale... Hence, a new blog topic.
Basically, this is just another of the "what if" games I like to play. It's fun, it's good prep work, and it beats the snot out of listening to what the monotone dude discovered when examining "communication primacy among middle school teachers..."
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If you mean the guy in my graduate class... he was back in class last week. No comment from anyone as to WTF is happening.
Yep, that's the one. Sorry for the spelling errors as I'm using a Crackberry while sitting in our weekly Monday love fest.
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No worries Ratcatcher, i just wanted to verify it was the guy from class and not the guy who threatened to get an AK and head to the Univ. of Neb. Lincoln campus and "kill some people." That was... Friday?
He, too, is a knucklehead and mentioned on my blog.
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joemerchant14,
If you are single, I would suggest you sit next to the pretty girls in class.
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joemerchant14,
If you are single, I would suggest you sit next to the pretty girls in class.
Kids...ya gotta tell them everything!
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I was going back through posts ( yeah yeah yeah.. I know.. but it's part of my job.. ;))
I realize that most of these suggestions can be used anywhere, but the majority of the people are in eating
establishments, bars/nightclubs shopping centers etc..
Is there anything to add to this when you are out like this?
The reason is ..awhile back , a group of us were talking about "what if you were at a place"................... ...... .......... .....
and since most of my family would be C/C, I know what you THINK you would do...but what you should do is another story.
And since lots/most people are not licensed ......I thought that maybe some of you who are more experienced in "the real world" could add some more to this thread. I will pass this link on to others who I think will find it informative .
Setting in rural laid back little town America, I don't know what I would do for sure. Adrenalin.. crowds, panic.. It all comes into play I am sure unless you are a professional. .. I also know that I need to be more mentally prepared just in case.
((Been watching all the episodes of Jericho..and it has me a bit freaked out on "what if"..... :o))
Thanks. :)
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Good thought Marshall'ette. I tried to pass it on to M. Ayoob (friends have taken a couple of his class) and his e-mail was full.
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Coming from a background of practical self-defense/martial arts, I would suggest that you sit at the extreme side of the room (in the potential assailant's outer peripheral fringe, assuming he/she is at the head of the class) and as close to the front as possible. This may seem odd, but I would suggest it because; (1) If the assailant has a gun, you are completely ineffective as a fighter if you are not within arms reach; (2) the assailant is likely to develop tunnel-vision in an intense situation like a shooting scenario. The quicker you can close the distance on someone the better. After you have done that, you can implement empty-hand techniques to neutralize the assailant. This goes without saying, that by putting yourself in this position you are going to be in a high level of danger in the event of a shooting, but you are also more capable of neutralizing the threat. Pistol disarms take repetition upon repetition to ingrain in your muscle memory. I would strongly suggest enrolling in a Krav Maga program.
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Training = Have several gun/knife courses under the belt, looking to add Krav Maga to the card file.
No guns = In Nebraska, it's more than tossed from school, it's a gun crime on the record, permit pulled, and likely loss of pistol purchase permit. As for me, I don't discuss where I carry (legally or no) on an open forum. No offense.
Windows = There are nice large ones, which are great if the shooting starts in another room. If it starts in mine, I'm plugged long before we get to the window, let alone opened and out.
CS/Taser/Stick = CS, in the form of a Guardian Angel would be useful, anything that mists or fogs in that size of a room (and the pressure differential) would be bad. Tasers are an option. In the tight quarters of the classrooms (which are all pretty much the same) a blade is more useful than a stick.
Stay home = Crime would fall dramatically if everyone stayed locked in their basement 24/7. I'm not living that way. I look at life as an odds game. I work hard to keep the odds in my favor (stay out of North O, stay aware of the surroundings, don't shop in gun-free stores (on principle), lock my doors, etc. To complete this degree, however, I have no choice but to spend 3-4 hours, twice a week, in a gun-free zone. What I choose to do in that zone is a private matter. Again, no offense.
What I've learned so far:
Tom Gresham hit it in the head when he told me 'Sometimes, there are no good answers."
If armed with a firearm, distance is good, but could be offset if I'm the first target available.
If armed with an edged weapon, distance must be closed quickly.
Unless convinced otherwise, I will likely move closer to the door side of the room, along the wall 2-3 seats back.
My reasoning:
1) The first person in that row is likely first shot.
2) Along the wall makes me invisible until the perp is in the room.
3) I am out of the direct sight line of the perp when he or she enters (90 to the side)
4) If only armed with an edged weapon, I am close enough to have a chance at not getting shot.
5) If armed with a firearm, I won't have Suzy Sorority jumping up in my front sight.
6) If I miss or overpenetrate, the only thing to get hit is a cinderblock wall.
There is no right answer. Every seat has a good/bad side. As I said, life is an odds game. I'm just looking to skew the odds toward me as much as possible.
Thanks for the replies, keep talking.
Keep in mind, this discussion is not just about me and a classroom. Think about where you will sit at the next meeting in the boardroom, or the next lecture in an auditorium, or where you'll be in church.
Skew those odds, compadres.
Krav Maga is a excellent choice for training with the proper mind set as to not to lose against an opponent EVER. It incorporates several techniques all into one and is not for the faint of heart. I have know several Israelis that have been trained and are experienced with it and have taught me some of the techniques and found them very useful bot you must choose your battles correctly .Stay safe.
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Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth and ipsc was beginning, We were told to set our digital watches to beep, at 1 or 2 hour intervals, and when that happened to look around and ask ourselves what if, that would become the scenario of the next match.
What I found was I got used to the beep, and would anticipate it ( like the alarm clock in the morning ) and begin looking 5 minutes before the watch sounded. This is the beginning of situational awareness. Where am I, what are my options for fight or flight? This made for many heated debates about what was practical and what was not. If your watch beeps and your in the heat of passion, or in church pew, it is valid, What if it happened now!!
The next chapter in the play is what our local constabulary calls being " Fat, Dumb and Happy " this is the state that most people around us live in, it would be nice if this was ok, and mostly it is, but that is not for us. Always aware, Always prepared, one way or the other. Stay and fight, or run away, depends on the situation, if being carjacked or led into a walkin refrigerator, fight like hell, because your adversaries want you dead, and your options are nil, armed or otherwise. If you see an out, take it and tell the Police all you saw.
I posted previously on the classroom scenario, and think, it was still a good observation, none of us want to be there on that day, but I think, superior mental attitude will rule the day. Uncle Jeff, bless his soul, said " make the decision to kill someone when you wake up in the morning " that way when the time comes, you have already made it, and you don't have to mentally process that information.
Rocks, books,, flagstaffs, tables or chairs, are the available weapons in most classrooms, use them as you see fit, and anything you can carry with you,, umbrella or walking stick is a bonus. It depends on the orientation of the room as to where I want to be be, perpendicular to the door with my back to the door is a lousy place so, put me against the far left or right wall... The door parallel to the desk arrangement,, put me 2nd row against the inside wall with the door fairly close, where I could jump up and address said asshole and subdue he or her. ( not recommended, but the best approach given the circumstance) .
For God sakes and yours, if you hear gunshots, tell your teacher and the class, get down, lock the door, and if that is not possible, pile things against the door, evacuate people from the windows, as fast as possible, be prepared for a fight and maybe turn the lights out and look small.
Bottom line, choose not to be victim.
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Rocks, books,, flagstaffs, tables or chairs, are the available weapons in most classrooms, use them as you see fit, and anything you can carry with you,, umbrella or walking stick is a bonus. It depends on the orientation of the room as to where I want to be be, perpendicular to the door with my back to the door is a lousy place so, put me against the far left or right wall... The door parallel to the desk arrangement,, put me 2nd row against the inside wall with the door fairly close, where I could jump up and address said asshole and subdue he or her. ( not recommended, but the best approach given the circumstance) .
I wholly concur...
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I appreciate this very much. Thanks...
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To sum up everyone else's good advice, If you can get out, GET OUT ! If you can not get out, KILL THE SOB. The only DANGEROUS weapon is the prepared mind, Everything else is just a tool.
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Great advice.. from everyone.
Once again. thanks.. I actually printed this off and will start getting my mind in the right area..
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Here is a scenario for Mr. Bad Guy. He jumps in the class room filled with victim only to have the whole class whip out their roscoe's and start blazing him to pieces. Yea I know the wold is not perfect. Oh well I still have my dreams ;D
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If the world was perfect, there wouldn't be any psychos go into classrooms. Administrations would recognize individuals that exhibit abnormal behavior and take the proper action. Hopefully within the next decade there will be a serious reevaluation on the part of student affairs professionals within the United States. The current mantra of "Oh, they'll be fine!" isn't going to cut it much longer. In loco parentis is going to be taken more seriously if administrations want to wield the current amount of power that they do.
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Q: Where should I sit in the class/boardroom
A: Next to the guy who is packin' heat!