The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: ericire12 on December 18, 2009, 02:09:54 PM
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/18/springfield-xdm-kaboom/
The suspected reason for the KB was a round fired out of battery.
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/kaboom_02-tfb.jpg)
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/kaboom_03-tfb.jpg)
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/kaboom_05-tfb.jpg)
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I wonder if this is indicative of tupperware guns.
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You have to wonder if anyone lost a thumb in the transaction.
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Perhaps those more knowledgeable could explain how this firing mechanism can even possibly fire a round that is NOT in battery.
Just curious...
Damage is much lower on the frame than the "G" kaboom's... No where near the slide. Possible double feed?
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a broken/fowled firing pin or a sear issuse is the most common cuases.
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Perhaps those more knowledgeable could explain how this firing mechanism can even possibly fire a round that is NOT in battery.
Just curious...
Damage is much lower on the frame than the "G" kaboom's... No where near the slide. Possible double feed?
Technically it is impossible to do so. By taking your striker fire system out of battery, the striker/FirePin will not have achieved enough movement of said striker to cause inertia. If you could place your finger in front of the breach-face "firing pin hole" you would not even feel it. This can be shown on Glocks and if Glock used this method of break down in manual there would never be an A.D. again. It would have to be N.D. and in my opinion, it should be N.D. anyway.
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That is why I love my SS Loaded Champ. Steel's the real deal.
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If you could figure out by my sig, I'm an "XD Guy"...
I have had XD's and XDm's apart hundreds of times and know them pretty intimately. I cannot see any way that the XD firing pin could EVER come in contact with the primer out of battery unless all the safetys on the gun were somehow bypassed or modified in ways that make no sense whatsoever in the performance of the firearm. Even then the firing pin and the channel it rides in are very robust and bending it in a manner that would strike the primer would mean that it was bent and lengthened considerably while retaining the same diameter at the same time. Physics rules apply.
My best guess would be a double charged handload. This XDm is a .40 and at 35000 CU's Max pressure that is a hot number for such a large caliber round. It is sooooo easy to make mistakes, especially with a progressive reloader... or even setting your digital measure or scale when loading by hand. I've seen plenty of large frame all steel .44 Magnum revolvers double charged with powder with the top strap and cylinders blown to bits so steel or polymer doesn't matter.
Be super careful, especially when loading "mouse fart" loads quickly because when 4.9 grains becomes 9.8 grains of powder there is a little difference in chamber pressures! :-\
Other possibilites are a blocked barrel or a split case... You make hot handloads in an auto in the same cases over and over and they can get kinda thin. Add to that the ramped section of the chamber that isn't fully supported to allow for feeding... The explosive power of the powder will follow the path of least resistance... right out the bottom of the case in the feedramp. The pics look like that is a possibility too.
Just my 1 1/2 cents,
Respectfully Submitted for Your Review,
Scott
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Thanks for the input,
One important thing to note here that every one else seems to be ignoring, all the force was downward, away from the shooters face.
Sh!t happens, nothing created by man is proof against defects at some point in the process, but the XD seems to have directed the force in a manner to minimize potential injury to the shooter.
I don't want ANYTHING blowing up in my hand, but if it happens I would prefer to have the Mag blown out at the bottom of my grip, than a top strap and cylinder pieces blowing off in front of my face.
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Thanks Tom! One thing I like about polymer is that it is "plastic" ie it is flexible and bends rather than shatters. In the 80s I had a Delta Elite blow up about 10 feet away from me. EVERYTHING shattered and I had some very xsharp metal flying by my face and the shooter had metal and wood all through his hand arm and face. Super scary.
Upon further examination, the blog link says the shooter was from the Dillon Crew. Probably not shooting factory ammo. The gun is also in the shooter's hand and he has powder burns and bruising. The dude who had he Delta come apart wasn't posing for any pics afterwards.
Cheers,
Scott
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Does anyone have the straight, true answer to what caused this XDM to break apart like shown.
This is very scary to me since I own an XDM. :o
XDM9
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Does anyone have the straight, true answer to what caused this XDM to break apart like shown.
This is very scary to me since I own an XDM. :o
XDM9
It is pretty evident that it was a double charged handload. I have thousands of rounds through my XDs. Plenty of hot handloads and tons of CorBons. No problems at all. You have a 9. Mm I assume and that is much lower pressure than he 40 that kaboomed.
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Looks like it could have been a blocked barrel, as well.
My concern is that it happened because of some operator error. I would like to know what that reason was, so it does not happen on my weapon when I or my wife is shooting it.
I have shot my XDM over a thousand times, without a failure of any type. I hope to continue that record.
It hopefully did not harm the user, although it looks like it could have caused substantial hand or eye damage.
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Operator error is shooting yourself in the foot... just kidding. No way.operator error caused a catastrophic failure like that. Unless the operator double charged the hanload himself. He is holding the gun in the pics. He has some abrasions and maybe bruising. I saw a 10mm Colt Deltas Elite blow up... he was not in any shape to take a picture afterward. The XDM held up well. Itsa tough pistol.
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I think that even though some ones hand might be a little tore up, they are alive. It looks like the gun took a huge impact and actually maybe saved the persons life. If this was 50, maybe even 20 years ago that person may be worse off with what ever gun they were shooting.
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I think that even though some ones hand might be a little tore up, they are alive. It looks like the gun took a huge impact and actually maybe saved the persons life. If this was 50, maybe even 20 years ago that person may be worse off with what ever gun they were shooting.
When the Delta Elite kaboomed it turned the aluminium frame and the grips into shrapnel. The shooter was all mangled up. It was about 20 years ago. The 10mm was new and everyone was handloading them super hot. The Guy was bragging it was within spitting distance of .44 Mag power. I think he would have been hurt with ANY pistol with those loads.
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LMXD- I thought I read someone say that this would a gun of one of the Dillion people. So I am sure that this too was also loaded a little too hot. Although in an American Handgunner I have, there is an article where John Taffin loaded some really heavy, hot .45 acps and shot them out of an XD and hand no problem. He was trying to recreate the original .45 colt load in an ACP cartridge.
He shot an H&G #68/7.0 gr. Unique. Which is like a 200 gr swc at 1043 fps.
He was also messing around with Speer 260gr JHP/6.0 gr. Unique and that was at 853 fps.
Mr. Taffin tested quite a few 255 and other 260gr cast bullets with no failure.
So someone most likely double charged the round. Cause these guns can take a pounding with no real problem. I wouldnt shoot 260gr SWCs all day everyday through it and who knows how many times this poor handgun has survived wild cat rounds before it KB'ed.I havent really seen a final verdict on it.
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Ksail,
I agree 100 percent on the double charge. I know the Xd family can take a beating but I am surprised about those numbers! Wow!
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You know: People that fool around with these types of loadings do not belong in the general public.
That is equivalent to running around with dynamite in their handgun and thinking there is nothing wrong, or they are immune to destroying themselves, or worse, destroying innocents.
I have no use for people like that; they are an extreme danger to the public and themselves.
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You know: People that fool around with these types of loadings do not belong in the general public.
That is equivalent to running around with dynamite in their handgun and thinking there is nothing wrong, or they are immune to destroying themselves, or worse, destroying innocents.
I have no use for people like that; they are an extreme danger to the public and themselves.
So you have "no use" for Skeeter Skelton or Elmer Keith ?
It's pretty obvious that you are overlooking the fact that without "those people" we would still be shooting black powder .38's and .44's instead of smokeless powder in .357 and .44 Magnum
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There is a right way and a wrong way to test loads. This person (If they double-loaded that XDM) had no right to even go into the public with that weapon. Keith and other "pioneers" at least worked safely. It's one thing to stretch the limits of a handgun, and another to be unsafe about their loadings.
Safety is the bottom line here. If it was an accident, it was an unsafe condition, and could have been prevented. If it was a gun failure, then the manufacturer should be looking at it for possible faults.
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You know: People that fool around with these types of loadings do not belong in the general public.
That is equivalent to running around with dynamite in their handgun and thinking there is nothing wrong, or they are immune to destroying themselves, or worse, destroying innocents.
I have no use for people like that; they are an extreme danger to the public and themselves.
Just to play devils advocate, I'll say that it is plausible to double charge a round when you are distracted or you can have an equipment malfunction. Competition shooters load what we term "mouse fart" loads which are just barely charged to meet IPSC regulations. The goal is the lightest recoiling round possible. These light loads often leave the case half full of powder. Now these guys crank out thousands of rounds at a whack on progressive presses that prime, size, charge and seat the bullet. All this stuff going on and one half pull of the handle by accident can drop in a load of powder from the measure but not advance the case to the next station. Pull the handle all the and you have one cartrige that is supposed to be loaded to 75% Max pressure and now is loaded to 150%.
When working up a new hot handload, to maximize performance the smart handloader will work up a bunch of loads that are hotter and hotter. After firing each round he or she will examine the fired case and the firearm for indications of overpressure. Then back off to a safe level.... This is responsible and not out of the norm. No one in their right mind should ever desire to push the limmits and risk injury...
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So you have "no use" for Skeeter Skelton or Elmer Keith ?
It's pretty obvious that you are overlooking the fact that without "those people" we would still be shooting black powder .38's and .44's instead of smokeless powder in .357 and .44 Magnum
I dont think there would be a .50 BMG sniper rifle if it wasnt for pushing the limits and possibly exceeding them at times. I respect those that are not afraid to wild cat a round. John Taffin really made me see what you can do with a modern service pistol.
All I ask is just be a little bit careful when dumping the powder and shoot at a private range.lol. Which I am sure the Dillion people get to do anyway.
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I know for a fact that there never would have been a Thompson Center Encore if J.D.Juriss had not been chambering Contender Barrels in calibers like .416 Rigby, and other H&H Elephant calibers.
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As an XD owner, I really hate to say this, but I can see a way a kaboom could have happened with the pistol not in battery.
Look at the standard ejector on the left in this picture - note how far away from the side of the slide it is.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg114/RBarPhoto/XDEjectorDifferences.jpg)
My best guess is the operator hit the mag release, (or the mag wasn't seated properly and dropped) and the cartridge that was being fed ended up with the primer lined up with the ejector, and the cartridge fired somewhere in the cycle. I dropped the mag on my XD, and lo and behold, the ejector is far enough away from the slide to allow this to happen. Note the mag must be dropped or the mag itself keeps this from happening.
I compared this with my Paras, and the ejector is so close to the slide this cannot happen.
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Fatman, color me dense, but I don't see how this would work.
The ejector is fixed to the frame. The distance between the ejector tip and the barrel is fixed and does not change (except for a little play when locking/unlocking. The ejector does not move forward, the case is dragged backwards by the extractor on the slide. But to do so, the cartridge case must be properly seated in the bolt face, hence the ejector will not be lined up with the primer.
Help me understand what would push the cartridge backwards, out of position onto the ejector with sufficient force?
Maybe I just don't get it. Sometimes it takes large blunt force trauma for me to have an epiphany
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Is the original XDM owner around to tell his side of the story,or has the gun been sent to Springfield Armory for them to complete an investigation?
It could be quite important to all the XDM owners out there to know the answer. It would give all XDM owners peace of mind, perhaps.
Does anybody know if the owner is around and sent his XDM to SA? The gun is under warranty so this should have happened.
As far as talking about "overloads" (in a reloading situation), the reloader should NOT be sidetracked when completing a reload. It is irresponsible for anyone to think this is OK.
For anyone to compare a "yahoo" overloading a cartridge, just to try it out, against an Elmer Keith, or some of the other knowledgeable pioneers who always operated SAFELY; that is even more irresponsible than the guy who may have done a double-reload.
I don't mean to preach safety, but part of being a gun owner is always operating in a safe mode. Anyone that thinks it's OK to overload a weapon, just to see what happens, should NOT even own a weapon. I am a very firm believer in the Second Amendment and the rights that are God-given and protected by the Second Amendment, BUT, and it is a BIG exception; no one has a "right" to operate unsafe. (Flame Off)
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Fatman, color me dense, but I don't see how this would work.
The ejector is fixed to the frame. The distance between the ejector tip and the barrel is fixed and does not change (except for a little play when locking/unlocking. The ejector does not move forward, the case is dragged backwards by the extractor on the slide. But to do so, the cartridge case must be properly seated in the bolt face, hence the ejector will not be lined up with the primer.
Help me understand what would push the cartridge backwards, out of position onto the ejector with sufficient force?
Maybe I just don't get it. Sometimes it takes large blunt force trauma for me to have an epiphany
No, I definitely don't think you're dense and need to be beaten with a bat. I remember seeing a video of a .45 round chambering, and it bounces around, it's not a perfectly smooth action. If the mag on the XD is dropped, I believe the dynamics of the cycle are changed - nothing properly in place under the chambering round, the flexing of the polymer frame could add to odd actions as flexing is considered in the engineering of the gun - but is it worse with the mag dropping? There are plenty of places for the tip of the bullet to catch and spin the primer into the ejector before it'ss completely out of the picture as the pistol cycles. The ejector in the XD sits roughly 1/8" farther up the cartridge than that on my Paras, meaning it would be exposed longer as the pistol cycles. The XD also has a more 'wiggle' room inside the slide than a 1911 - it's wider, allowing more side to side motion w/o a mag in. And to add another variable, in the XD with the mag out, there is an additional place for things like the tip of a bullet on a bouncing cartridge to catch - on a pin protruding in from the slide release.
I'm more saying it's not a cut and dry case to eliminate an engineering oversight and go straight to an overcharged load. From what I'm looking at side by side with my Para and XD, I think Springfield needs to take a look at the design to see if that is an issue. I think their biggest clue would come from whatever is lodged on the breech side of the barrel near the notch - it doesn't look like a brass case - it's too flat on one side and way too thick. The bullet, maybe?
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Oh, and when the XDm is finally out in .45, I'm still getting one. ;D
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(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/jscottbaird/SatJan16135308AmericaNew_York2010.jpg)
Here's another pic that you may not have seen. It's pretty evident that the cartridge was seated in the firing chamber straight, so the ejector issue was improbable. The case blew out along the feed ramp side (bottom) where the round was unsupported. Its a classic overcharge. The Blue Gun Blog said that the gun was being fired all day without a hitch by someone with Dillon Reloading team and in the final stage kaboomed. He would not have been using high powered rounds in a match. He was shooting all day. He was with a reloading group. Does that point enough evidence to a reloading error where a round was double charged.
Was the reloader negligent? Yes. Did he make an easy error? Yes. No one other than benchrest shooters weighs every single round. If he was shooting all day he could have shot up 300 plus rounds that he reloaded the night before. The lesson learned is that you need to be dilligent and consistant when reloading.
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I don't load but bunches of fellas at my range do. One guy in particular, an older fella, loads and when he steps up to a range, everyone else steps back. He's constantly having issues with his loads and it's gotten to the point that people won't shoot when he's on the range. They/we avoid him and I think if he gets another complaint, we're going to 86 him.
We pride ourselves as being a self policing range with not one firearms accident in the 81 years of our existance. The only time we have RO's is during scheduled shoots of various kinds.
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(http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/jscottbaird/SatJan16135308AmericaNew_York2010.jpg)
Here's another pic that you may not have seen. It's pretty evident that the cartridge was seated in the firing chamber straight, so the ejector issue was improbable. The case blew out along the feed ramp side (bottom) where the round was unsupported. Its a classic overcharge. The Blue Gun Blog said that the gun was being fired all day without a hitch by someone with Dillon Reloading team and in the final stage kaboomed. He would not have been using high powered rounds in a match. He was shooting all day. He was with a reloading group. Does that point enough evidence to a reloading error where a round was double charged.
Was the reloader negligent? Yes. Did he make an easy error? Yes. No one other than benchrest shooters weighs every single round. If he was shooting all day he could have shot up 300 plus rounds that he reloaded the night before. The lesson learned is that you need to be dilligent and consistant when reloading.
much bett
Thanks, that last photo is a clincher.
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Doesn't matter what the pistol/rifle is, .........if the bullet is in doubt?,....throw it out....
OR this is the result....Thanks for the picture. As was posted, thankfully the detonation went downward through the mag, as opposed to up and out toward the shooter.