The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: billt on December 22, 2009, 07:46:10 AM
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I'm toying with the idea of getting one for no other reason except for the "fun factor". Both Colt and Rock River Arms make them. I read the Rock River model now has an integral magazine block built into the receiver. I was just wondering how well they run? It would be kind of nice as far as ammo cost. I can handload the .223 pretty cheap, but I doubt I can compare to the $9.47 box of 50 price for the Wal-Mart Federal Ball 9 MM. No where near the power level and range of a .223, but hotter than a .22 LR. I just wondered if any of you guys have had any experience with them? A nice local shop near me has a new RRA 9 MM Carbine for a grand and change. Bill T.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=150592840
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STOP THE PRESSES! We've finally found something that Bill doesnt have.
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STOP THE PRESSES! We've finally found something that Bill doesnt have.
for how long though
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STOP THE PRESSES! We've finally found something that Bill doesnt have.
Actually Melanie would like to get it. The closest our gun club range will allow centerfire rifle to be shot is 100 yards. But they'll allow pistol rounds in rifles on the 25 yard handgun range. 9 MM AR-15's, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt lever guns and the like. Bill T.
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Could it be true? I have one...and Billt doesn't? Then again, he's prolly got lots of stuff I don't so I'll just stop talking now before I bite off more than I can chew... mumble, mumble, mumble ::)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/nx28tt.jpg)
I have an Oly Arms 9mm upper (bottom one in the photo above). I got a very good deal on the upper several years ago as I was shooting 3 gun matches at my club back in Illinois. The match was set up to be a modern version of Cowboy Action Shooting...same rules, just using modern arms. Pistol caliber carbines only. I was using my .45 Colt Winny 92 and thought I wanted something more tacticool.
It is a fun gun, but not the most reliable...the biggest issue is the positioniing of the mag in relation to the bolt. Here's my points on the rifle:
+ The hammer had to be modified (top smoothed off to remove the little "notch" on a stock hammer) so it would reliably contact the firing pin
+ Many people have reported that they needed a pistol caliber specific buffer...my stock carbine buffer is fine
+ This upper did not come with any magazines...Oly Arms sells modified Sten mags that fit in the mag well without an additional mag well block however I haven't tried these. I did buy a mag well block that fits in the well but it relies on modifiying the little bumps on the mag to limit how far it goes into the well during a speed reload. it is possible to blow right through the mag catch on the block and jam the mag deep into the action...causing misfeeds and stoppages. For this reason, the current set up is not something I'll use in competition or for home defense.
+ No bolt hold open...to me, makes it not a serious fighting rifle but a toy. BHO is a requirement (sorry AK fans)
For a range toy, if you take the care to gently insert mags and make sure they are locked in correctly, then it functions fine. It has surprisingly about the same recoil as a .223 because it is blowback and has a heavy bolt. There is a much less blast of course, so the total perceived recoil (including noise which is the disconcerting thing about ARs for inexperienced shooters) is much lower.
Again, it is a fun range toy but in currrent config I wouldn't trust my life to it.
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Thanks Kilopaparomeo,
I wonder if this newer Rock River model has better dependability with the integral magazine block? I hate like hell to take a chance on a gun that might wind up a headache. I may take a ride and at least look at the thing. I really like the concept, I just want it to work.
I balked at a Kahr Arms Thompson a while back for the same reason. The gun is beautifully crafted of nicely blued steel and Walnut, but after talking to several people who have them I passed because many had dependability issues with the gun running correctly out of the box. A few had success with them, but it wasn't a high enough ratio for me to gamble over $1,400.00 on. One would think these companies would get the bugs out of these things before going to market with them. Bill T.
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Mel and I looked at a Colt .22 LR AR-15. It was a nice looking piece. Except for the magazine, it was almost impossible to tell from the real deal. She just thought the 9 MM would raise the "fun factor" a bit. I tend to agree. Anyway we may go and check it out later on today or tomorrow. I'll let you guys know what we decided. Bill T.
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I shot a friends an AR-10 I believe its called. I thought it was pretty weak. I would buy a high point carbine before sinking money into a IMO a rifle that has no practical use. YMMV
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I wonder if this newer Rock River model has better dependability with the integral magazine block? I hate like hell to take a chance on a gun that might wind up a headache. I may take a ride and at least look at the thing. I really like the concept, I just want it to work.
I suspect that a gun that is built from ground up as a 9mm, including the mag well, would run. RRA has a great reputation also. Remember, mine is set up to run unaltered Sten gun mags so you are losing a bit of customization in comparison to a purpose built gun.
I agree on 9mm vs a 22 upper...fun factor is higher with a bit of recoil.
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I forgot to mention the obvious. I don't care for the fact it doesn't come with a carry handle / A-2 sight. If we get this thing Mel likes iron sights, and she shoots them well. I'll have to buy a carry handle / sight for it. I've never purchased one before, and I know everyone and their brother makes them in just about any price range. Can any of you guys recommend one? It doesn't have to be a top of the line model. I just want something that has good quality and sight mechanics. Comments? Bill T.
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My Spike's 9mm AR pistol will run with any kind of junk I can stuff in the magazine. It has been 100% (and a crazy hoot to shoot...must have beta mag...must have beta mag...).
http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=68&zenid=8lugb0l1jd6h9dd4sb8q2bca01
Michael B
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Michael,
Will the 9 MM Beta-C Mags run in any 9 MM AR-15 carbine? Thanks, Bill T.
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You mentioned the Colt AR in .22 LR and I have learned the COLT is VERY picky about ammo and jams like crazy if fed the wrong stuff.
I do not know if this is true of the 9mm AR Colt.
There was agreement among the gunsmiths who told me about the Colt AR .22 that the best AR look-alikes are the Ruger, S&W and their all time best of best is the H&K look-alike. Eats anything, doen't break. If you get one, buy all the mags you can find. H&K is suing them since it is that good.
On the 9mm front, there are some 9mm carbines coming to the SHOT SHOW in January. Naturally the GLOCK carbine rumor is still runing wild but it is likley just that....all rumor.
Micotech is coming with a pistol caliber bullpup ( looks like an AUG ) and Kel-Tec also has another one coming.
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You mentioned the Colt AR in .22 LR and I have learned the COLT is VERY picky about ammo and jams like crazy if fed the wrong stuff.
I do not know if this is true of the 9mm AR Colt.
There was agreement among the gunsmiths who told me about the Colt AR .22 that the best AR look-alikes are the Ruger, S&W and their all time best of best is the H&K look-alike. Eats anything, doen't break. If you get one, buy all the mags you can find. H&K is suing them since it is that good.
On the 9mm front, there are some 9mm carbines coming to the SHOT SHOW in January. Naturally the GLOCK carbine rumor is still runing wild but it is likley just that....all rumor.
Micotech is coming with a pistol caliber bullpup ( looks like an AUG ) and Kel-Tec also has another one coming.
The Law suit was settled a while ago, I believe they reached some sort of compromise
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I did have an ASA 9 carbine. POS never ran right. Sold it and bought a Bushmaster 9 carbine. (I mistakenly referred to it as Olympic in another thread)
I love it. It is polymer and light. I thought it might be too light but it runs great. I won the pistol caliber carbine match with it last time I shot it. Never has had a failure of any kind.
The only problem is with the polymer Bushmaster mags. They work fine but once they are loaded they swell and do not drop free. The mags look pretty much the same as Colt mags but I haven't tried any to see if they work.
Price when I bought it was around $750 IIRC.
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There was agreement among the gunsmiths who told me about the Colt AR .22 that the best AR look-alikes are the Ruger, S&W and their all time best of best is the H&K look-alike. If you get one, buy all the mags you can find. H&K is suing them since it is that good.
Are you talking about the GSG-5 line of .22 rifles and pistols? Bill T.
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Melanie and I made the trek up to the gun shop this morning to check out the 9 MM Rock River Arms AR-15 we've been talking about. The gun was excellent! Much nicer, and well made than I thought from the pictures they had on their website. My main concern was the magazine issue. No issues to be had. The gun comes with a 25 round magazine, and he had a Colt 30 round that clicked into place. The guy was as nice as could be, and really knowledgeable. Turns out he laughed when I told him the gun was mainly for Melanie. He told us he bought one for his wife for her birthday, and she really liked it. I like the fact it will accept Colt, Rock River, as well as C-Products magazines. He said he had some C-Products mags coming in, and would call me when he gets them.
We didn't care for the fact it didn't come with a detachable carry handle, but he had several to choose from so that was covered as well. We got a nice CMT A-3 Model that fits like a glove. The really nice thing about this gun that sets it apart from the other 9 MM CAR Carbines out there is the proprietary 9 MM lower. It is machined from solid as a 9 MM. Yes, it eliminates the ability to change the lower to any other caliber, but at the same time it really increases the locating qualities of the magazine when you insert it into the gun. It slides right into place and locks nice and tight. Zero wobble or problems. I even had Mel do it with both mags with the bolt closed and she had no trouble with it slipping right in and clicking into place.
Even with all of this, it doesn't mean a damn thing if it doesn't shoot! We'll find that out after Christmas. If I have any grief with this thing I'll let you guys know. He did tell me if the extra mag has any issues he would take it back, or exchange it when he gets more of them in. Can't beat that.
Melanie was so happy she told me she felt "guilty". Now the good part! After we got the 9 MM Rock River AR-15 all buttoned up we looked around some more. This is a really nice place. Not overly large, but extremely clean with an excellent staff that isn't pushy in the least, and they always have an excellent stock of really nice black rifles and pistols. I was looking at the Sigs, (Those guns always seem to impress me). They had this really beautiful P-226 Stainless 9 MM Elite with night sights. It had beautiful wood grips and checkering on the front strap. The gun felt just awesome when I picked it up! I couldn't put it down! I already have the P-226 SCT which is very similar, and ships with 4, 20 round magazines. It has the standard black grips, not the super fancy wood. The 20 round magazines will of course interchange in any P-226, so we grabbed it. All in all it was a good day at the gun shop. Expensive, but GOOD! We each ended up getting an early Christmas present! Can't complain about that! I'll try and get some pictures up soon. Bill T.
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Now I need to get one of those Beta-C 9 MM mags Michael is talking so highly of !! Bill T.
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The man has too much disposable income.
*I HATE BILL!
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Not "disposed of", but rather INVESTED! Bill T.
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Not the best, but some quick pics:
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9956/rockriverarms9mmsigsaue.jpg)
(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9956/rockriverarms9mmsigsaue.jpg)
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9956/rockriverarms9mmsigsaue.jpg)
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8415/rockriverarms9mmsigsauef.jpg)
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9956/rockriverarms9mmsigsaue.jpg)
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9956/rockriverarms9mmsigsaue.jpg)
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9956/rockriverarms9mmsigsaue.jpg)
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2471/rockriverarms9mmsigsauen.jpg)
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9956/rockriverarms9mmsigsaue.jpg)
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Spike says the 9mm Colt Beta mag will work fine in his 9mms.
C'mon...why not? The ultimate bedroom gun, short of a belt-fed!
mb
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I'll be getting one Michael! Thanks for the info! Bill T.
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One thing I noticed with both Sigs. Perhaps it's me with my crappy 57 year old eyes, but for some reason the Sig night sights just seem to be a lot brighter than my Glocks. It could be the Sigs are a bit newer, as they do lose intensity with age. But even next to my Glock 30 which is my newest, the Sig's come off as much more brilliant. Better charged gas cylinders perhaps? Anyway, they really stand out. Bill T.
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I just ordered 4 of these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=310297
And 4 of these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=838489
With the 2 I've got that makes 10. I should be in good shape for a while until I can get a 100 round Beta-C Mag. I just don't like spending a large amount on an expensive semi auto firearm, and have a limited amount of magazines. A gun is only as good as the magazine that feeds it. Bill T.
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I picked up on this thread a little late but Olympic Arms also make AR's in 9mm among other calibers.
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By the way Bill those are some really nice looking firearms! 8)
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I just ordered 4 of these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=310297
And 4 of these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=838489
With the 2 I've got that makes 10. I should be in good shape for a while until I can get a 100 round Beta-C Mag. I just don't like spending a large amount on an expensive semi auto firearm, and have a limited amount of magazines. A gun is only as good as the magazine that feeds it. Bill T.
I have the polymer mags for my Bushmaster. They work fine and hold the bolt open on the last round but they swell when loaded and don't drop free from the gun. No problems going in. It might be different in your rock river depending on tolerances.
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By the way Bill those are some really nice looking firearms! 8)
Thanks Guns,
The Rock River Arms was mainly for Melanie, and the Sig is for me. Bill T.
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I have the polymer mags for my Bushmaster. They work fine and hold the bolt open on the last round but they swell when loaded and don't drop free from the gun. No problems going in. It might be different in your rock river depending on tolerances.
I heard that about the Polymer mags. But for the price, I just couldn't pass them up. Another nice thing about Polymer mags is they don't scratch up your magwell. Bill T.