The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on December 26, 2009, 02:31:37 PM
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As some of you know I recently acquired an AR lower receiver ;D
I have decided that I will go with a 5.56/223 upper,16 inch barrel, I'm still up in the air between carrying handle or flat top, but I have plenty of time to make up my mind while I save up money.
I have been searching on line for prices of complete uppers, I have found there is generally no difference in price between A2 and A4 styles, but prics range from $450 at Model 1 sales to around $575 for CMMG
I'm leaning toward the Bushmaster gas piston system but I would like to hear feed back on this and get an opinion from you guys on which brand has the best value for the money.
I don't know if comparability is an issue but it is a Spikes Tactical Receiver with DPMS parts .
Thanks in advance for the input, and YES I will post pics when it's done ;D
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If I only had one AR I would get a flat top and put some optics on it. I don't know how different brands compare but forgings are better than extrusions IMO, and I like GI suppliers better than me too brands. I wish I could be of more help.
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tombogan03884
As you most likely know I'm a big Bushmaster fan. I've got 5.
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4753/dsc00006bi2.jpg)
With that said I haven't been hearing good things since Dick Dyke sold Bushmaster to Cerberus Capital Management a few years back. They are the multi million dollar group that bought Bushmaster, Remington, Marlin, and a host of others I'm forgetting at the moment. As you know Remington "came out with" the R-25, which is nothing more than a Bushmaster Varminter with a camo paint job. All sorts of this stuff has been going on lately. Dick Dyke was a quality guy, and the Bushmasters I own were built when he owned the joint. Now, I'm just not so sure. Add all of this on to the fact these companies have been pumping out product to meet the demand since Hussein slid into the White House, and you can see where I'm coming from. Melanie and I are going to invest in several AK-47 models in the near future because of what we all see coming. There quality is easy to judge. AR-15's are a bit more difficult. I do have to say the Rock River Arms 9 MM I bought Mel the other day is a quality gun.
My point in all of this is to just be sure you look over everything you buy before you put your money on the table and drive it off the lot. As Boz Scaggs said! Bill T.
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The boys on the AR-15 forum (www.ar15armory.com) seem to like a company called addax (sp?). I'd not heard of them before, but its a small custom shop that does GP uppers. It sounds like Spike's Tactical. I know nothing about them, but I'd take a look.
FQ13
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I've got 4 builds in the works currently buying parts for. I'm not sure about any particular manufacture but the biggest and most important part of any upper is the barrel. So above anything else I'll be looking at that part first. Also I would mostly stick with flat top uppers for the versatility you get, you can always add a carry handle to it!
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And please post what you learn in your research! Might save me sometime or give me some Ideas. I know one of mine is going to be a standard A2 build to practice with, another will be in something like .243 WSSM for hunting. The other two I'm thinking of maybe 6.8SPC or 6.5 for one and the last one is pistol only lower so something like a 7.5 - 10in bbl chambered for 5.56 or something else?
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I like what I have heard about the 6.5 and 6.8 but I am going to go 5.56 due to ammo availability and cost.
Do I remember correctly that the 1in 9 twist is the one that is most versatile as far as bullet weights go ?
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Tom, Check this thread:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=5285.0
I can't find it right now, but I think one of the barrel manufacturers has a chart for twist and bullet weight also.
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Good idea with sticking to 5.56 for now - you can always change uppers later as time and money and availability improve. 1:9 is fine for the 5.56, gives you a range of 52gr through upper 60 grains, like 67 or something like that. You just can't use the "heavy" 70 gr and higher weight bullets.
I have a Stag upper, and it is very nice. Can't go wrong with Stag. I remember MB talking a couple years ago about shooting a Stag rifle out of the box, no cleaning or anything, and was shooting tight groups, and the gun ran flawlessly.
Go with a flat top, Tom, you can always get a removable carry handle if you decide you want one. I have a DPMS with the handle permanently mounted, wish I had the flattop. The handle screws with optics mounts rather badly. Even with a Z-mount for the optics on the handle, they are way high for me.
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Might try this page also:
http://www.stevespages.com/page8e.htm
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Now that you mention that, I remember it was remington. Since I'm building this as a General purpose blaster, not a precision rifle it sounds like 1:9 is what I want, I thought so but wanted to be sure.
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Good idea with sticking to 5.56 for now - you can always change uppers later as time and money and availability improve. 1:9 is fine for the 5.56, gives you a range of 52gr through upper 60 grains, like 67 or something like that. You just can't use the "heavy" 70 gr and higher weight bullets.
I have a Stag upper, and it is very nice. Can't go wrong with Stag. I remember MB talking a couple years ago about shooting a Stag rifle out of the box, no cleaning or anything, and was shooting tight groups, and the gun ran flawlessly.
Go with a flat top, Tom, you can always get a removable carry handle if you decide you want one. I have a DPMS with the handle permanently mounted, wish I had the flattop. The handle screws with optics mounts rather badly. Even with a Z-mount for the optics on the handle, they are way high for me.
Agreed, honestly who uses a carry handle anyway? I would spring for an upper that has built in buis, otherwise its an extra $150. Likewise make sure it has a sling mount or you're out more dollars. Modularity is a plus to the AR, but it can nickel and dime you to death if you don't do your research first (I am exhibit A). I let myself get stampeded into a deal, and now I will spend some money getting it where I want it. I still will have paid a fair price, just not as cheap as it first appeared. Measure twice, cut once. ;)
FQ13
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Good call on the 1:9, agree also with a flat top, handles can always be added/removed.
16" barrel perfect for general use, although a slightly longer one would result in a little "reach out" effect.
Stag are good out of the box ready, DPMS has a 20" A3 upper 416 stainless bull barrel 1:9 also.
Cheaperthandirt, has a DPMS AP4 Contour 16"barrel, front sight and gas block, 1:9, threaded muzzle AISI chrome moly, barrel is not chrome lined for less than $300.
Lots and lots of options out there.
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I had a big reply with pics, did not go through, gods way of saying shut up ;D
My advice is a flat top, A3, DPMS has what they call a Tri rail, get the lowest one, it has and A2 sight plus 3 rails to attach goodies to. I have 6 complete AR's all but one are Hbars, if you can be happy with 1 1/2" at 100 yards go with the lightweight pencil thin barrel, if you want to shoot little groups, go with the heavy barrel. The light weight is much fun to carry.
The TRi rail.
http://www.alscustom.com/shop/images/49896.jpg
Here are a few of mine, the 2nd from the left is my go to lightest rifle, it just works and is a good package, no longer has the Eotech, but an aimpoint comp ML2 with 2 minute dot.excellent combo.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1380.jpg)
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http://www.alscustom.com/shop/images/49896.jpg
Hey, I know Al. He is a great gunsmith, cut the Bomars in on my first Para.
Tom, if you have any AR related questions, give him a call or e-mail.
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I like the look of the second from the left, and I like the looks of "Original" style front sight rather than the flip up type.
Since I can't see at longer distances with out my glasses and I can not be sure I will always have them with me I'm planning on 100-200 yard target plinking, not benchrest type accuracy so it sounds like the flat top with Aim point is just the ticket.
The last question that comes to mind is the "medium contour" barrels, Are they a happy medium between the light and heavy or is there some draw back I'm not aware of ?
I realize that some of these questions may sound odd coming from a former unit armorer, but I plead 2 mitigating circumstances,
First, we used what Uncle Sam handed down to us, with no choice, second they were all 20 inch barrels, no Carbines, so the M4gery is a fairly unknown article to me.
Thanks for all the advice, it has narrowed my selection greatly, I will keep my options open now with a reduced group of suppliers until I get the money saved, I am still interested in the Gas piston system so I will keep an ear out for that but most likely, based on availability at the time I will choose either Stag or Rock River, if they are both to far behind I will go DPMS
and the flat top because the optics are more appropriate to the type of shooting I want to do. If I want the retro CAR look as has been stated they have detatchable carry handles ;D
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Tom
I would definatly hit www.ar15armory.com. There are probably some BS artists there, (caveat emptor as always), but for the most part, they seem like very helpful gun nerds who are into the nuts and bolts of the rifle. These seem like the kind of guys you ask when you don't just want to know "what will it do"? But rather, "How does it do that". Take it with a grain of salt, but do surf the site.
FQ13
PS The eyesight is a serious issue. I can't use the carry handle peep rear sight at all inthe small 'precision" setting. It wasn't an issue when I was 20, but it sure is now. Even the larger apperature through a carry handle takes a second (a valuable second) to adjust and thats in the show room, God knows what it would be like in the dark when I'm scared spitless. I prefer not to find out. Carry handles are out for me. I will go with my eotech and when I get the cash a "V" style buis. Both are good enough for a sub 250 yard "blaster" as you put it. To quote Clint "A man has to know his limitations" and small iron peep sights are mine. My eyes aren't so bad that I need "This Side Towards Enemy" written on the muzzle, but bright scopes and eotechs are definately my friends right now. :-\
FQ13
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Here's my advice based on my likes / dislikes based on my own collection and use.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/nx28tt.jpg)
You can't go wrong with a flat-top 16" M4-gery. Get one and play around with it to find out what you like before you start cluttering it up with lots of accessories. What I would recommend are the following things:
- Get a 1:8 or 1:7 twist. Everything that I have read and my own experience shows that 55 and 62 gr bullet are fine in these faster twists. They don't "overstablize" and are accurate. The faster twist allows you to easily shoot 77 gr bullets as well. Again, nothing wrong with the 1:9 but I like the faster twists better
- Skip the chrome lined barrel unless you absolutely must have it because you will be slugging the rifle through the jungles of Vietnam and firing the rifle on full auto. Nothing wrong with it per se but it degrades accuracy and is more expensive. ar15.com wannabees have created this mania that demands chromelined barrels
- Get a free floated handguard. Third best thing after a good barrel and good trigger for accuracy
- Get a standard flat top and put a simple optic and BUIS on it. Save the extra rails and crap for the handguard (and limit them to only the accessories you absolutely need...IMO that is a weapon light and maybe a VFG...nothing else)
- Get the M4 feed guides for reliability
- Personally I like a slightly longer barrel...the 5.56 is disadvantaged anyway and its killing power depends on fragmentation. That severely degrades under 2700 fps when limits range. If I can reach out an extra 50 yards by adding 2", I want that. The AR that is 5th down from the top is set up just like I want it
- Keep your optics as low as possible while still co-witnessing. You do NOT want them sticking way up. That will destroy any cheekweld you have.
- Keep the rifle light. One of the advantages of the AR system is its light weight...I'd target absolutely no more than 7 lb unloaded with optic. People tend to get heavy barrels and hang all kinds of crap on them and pretty soon they are no longer a handy carbine.
I think the best deal going is the DS Arms M4 upper. It is $275 and DSA makes high quality stuff. Add a good Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) to it for around $125 + optics/BUIS and you are good to go . That is $400 for a very high quality set up.
http://www.dsarms.com/DSA-ZM4-Forged-7075T6-A3-AR15-Upper-Receiver---DSZM4CBU/productinfo/DSZM4CBU/
(http://www.dsarms.com/images/DSZM4CBU.jpg)
As for AR stuff, Midway, Brownells are all good places. I've recently become enamoured of Bravo Company. Good quality parts, good prices and very fast shipping.
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KPR, I thank you for your input, I had looked at the DS upper on line but the other companies advertise that their complete uppers (W/ bolt carrier group) are head spaced and test fired, that is one step I would prefer to have handled by trained Pro's in a fully equipped shop.
I agree about the accessories, I have a coffee maker in my kitchen, I don't need one on my rifle, (cup holder might be handy though ;D )
Another question, my goal with this rifle is to be able to throw it to my shoulder a put hits in a paper plate at ranges inside 200 yards, most of the rifle ranges around here are 100 yards and being heavily wooded shoots in the field would be in that same range.
All these Optic sights, seem to be much better for QUICK target acquisition than Iron sights, but I have no experience with them. The 3 main types seem to be Aim point style red dots, ACOG, and the EOtech Holographic sight .
Other threads have put my mind to rest about battery life, but I would like to hear the pro's and cons of the different types.
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I wouldn't worry about the "headspaced and test fired". If you buy from a quality maker that follows milspec standards, the bolt will be fine. I've built from scratch 3 of my 7 ARs (e.g., individual parts, not slapping an upper on a lower) and have never bought a bolt barrel combo for those. In each, headspace gauges show that they are in spec. The only 2 one that I've not done this way are the 6.8 SPC (because I needed a new bolt with the barrel and WOA was offering it) and my WOA DCM rifle. Needed max accuracy. ARs are like legos...they go together.
As for red dots, given you needs, a 1X should be fine. I prefer the EoTech over the Aimpoint because I find it faster to acquire. The big 65 MOA ring draws you in for fast shots, the 1 MOA dot is for more precise work. Aimpoints have the single larger dot which I personally find less useful. They are an excellent sight though. Aimpoint will give you longer battery life than the eoTech.
You also might consider a 1-4X tactical sight with a CQB optic. They have a lot of advantages if you will find a need for longer range shots (>100 yards)
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Your requirments are like mine. Short range, quick, dirty and good enough. I looked at a few red dots and went eotech, I was tempted by the Busnell, about $100 cheaper new, but I got a sweet deal on an eotech 512. Having owned it, I wouldn't even look at anything else regardless of price. It gives you a hollow circle in a cross that is bright and fills the glass. There is no playing "find the dot" while seconds tick past. You slap the rifle to your shoulder, both eyes open, and even with a half assed cheek weld its right there. It is also bright enough that on a Florida summer day I can aim it at my neighbors white roof and it doesn't wash out. You can fight at noon as well as midnight. It uses 2 double As and theoretically can be submerged to 10 meters (translation: it will work in the rain). The best adviceI ever got was that you don't put a POS optic on a good rifle. You don't need to spring for the Aimpoint, but an eotech (probably $250-$400 on ebay) is worth every dime if you want pie plates inside of 300 meters. Just my .02.
FQ13
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I have a Colt C-More sight on one of my flat tops. It has held up well and the battery hasn't been changed since I bought it many years ago. Seems durable enough...........I haven't broken it. Fast target acquisition and has never lost its zero.
The one I have has a built in rear sight so there is no need to buy a BUIS.
http://www.cmore.com/tactical.html
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FQ, you can help me understand something here, The Eotechs that I have seen look like a frame holding a single sheet of glass sticking up over the gun, is this some sort of "reflector sight" like in air planes, or is it for field of view or what ?
I have a Colt C-More sight on one of my flat tops. It has held up well and the battery hasn't been changed since I bought it many years ago. Seems durable enough...........I haven't broken it. Fast target acquisition and has never lost its zero.
The one I have has a built in rear sight so there is no need to buy a BUIS.
http://www.cmore.com/tactical.html
The CMore is another like I was just asking FQ about, How does that work ?
Years ago, Weaver had the "Quick point" it was a Red wire runnin through an acrylic rod, if you saw the round end of the wire you were on target , but this electronic single (apparently ) lens stuff is not so simple for me to understand.
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Does anyone own, or have a solid opinion on the DPMS LR-308 AP4, AR-15 in .308? I'm hearing lots of good things about their accuracy, as well as good, reliable functioning. I don't own either a DPMS, or a .308 caliber AR-15. I know that was the original caliber Stoner designed it for, and I'm seeing more and more of them. To me it makes a little more sense than the 6.8 SPC just from an ammunition availability standpoint. The 6.8 SPC is expensive, and not that easy to find. Also, with the .308 you get far more bullet choices. Bill T.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=18
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FQ, you can help me understand something here, The Eotechs that I have seen look like a frame holding a single sheet of glass sticking up over the gun, is this some sort of "reflector sight" like in air planes, or is it for field of view or what ?
No, it has a "holographic projection" red dot that fills the glass, I'm sure the science guys will explain it. For us grunts, when its turned on, the glass is filled with a cross surrounding a 6 mil hollow circle with with a 1 mill dot in the middle. I know it is erroneous to equate mils to moa, but with my DPMS its close enough, at least at 100 yards (the longest local range :'(). Using the dot, I can put a three round group comfortably inside of 2 1/2 inches. Snap shooting using the circle and just squeezing as the sillouette comes up, they are all in center mass, not pretty, but good emough and off hand at 100 yards I'll take it. Not what I would want for hunting or target shooting, but for fast action (rifle on the bench, shouldered and fired inside of two seconds) it will more than suffice. I really like this optic.
FQ13
PS the groups mentioned are shooting off hand standing, so its me, not the rifle or optic thats to blame, benched it will do better.
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I am not familiar with Eotech.
With the C-more, there is a glass (or something) held in a frame above the sight. There is a dot that gets projected onto the glass from further back on the sight. There is a knob that controls brightness of the dot. It doesn't matter where the dot is on the screen, the bullet will go wherever the dot is.
I like the open design. The one drawback I can see is if you get the sight really muddy and the dot can't be projected. But then again that is what you have the BUIS for.
There is no magnification.
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It is basically like an aircraft HUD. If you google something like "eotech display" it will take you to some sights that discuss it more and some have pictures of the display. I tried to take a picture of mine but the stupid auto-focus on the camera was outsmarting me. I have the 512 and it is worth every penny IMHO.
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Thanks, those sound like just what I would want
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The only issue I had with the EO-Tech I put on Mel's Bushmaster Pistol was sighting it in. They're a little tricky if you haven't worked with them. You need a good, solid rest and it's important you keep your head, eye position the same from shot to shot, or you'll find steady grouping will be difficult to achieve. Once we both got the hang of it, the thing was pretty accurate. It's quite easy to hit a pop can at 100 yards once you get it, and you dialed in. I like them, put if I were to put optics on an AR-15 I think I would go to either a ACOG or Aimpoint. Bill T.
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The only other thing I would mention is go with the EO-Tech over the Bushnell Holo-Sight. The EO-Tech is Mil-Spec, and the glass is 3/16ths of an inch thick. The Holo-Sight is a commercial version of it and is constructed less ruggedly. Bill T.
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This deserves its own thread, but we are trying to Help Tom out here.
I own, Eotech, trijicon tri power and reflex, C more, Aimpoints, Tasco optima, PDP4 red dot type scopes.
For shooting I love the Trijicon Tripower, but it has a flaw and I have not sent it back to see if gets better, it has the chevron reticle which I love, up close put the whole chevron on target and press, at distance use it like a front sight, place the target at the tip of the chevron and press. Problem, if I am in the shade shooting at a white plate in the sunlight, it will wash completely out. This is an older model and tritium is dead, man I talked to at trijicon did not give me a lot faith that this issue will be resolved. But I really like it in action.
All round I like the Aimpoints, built very tough and the best thing is battery life, neither of mine are current generation that have 50,000 hrs on 1 battery, just 10,000 hrs, put in the battery on mine, leave it on all the time at 1/2 power, change the battery on your birthday every yr. Bright enough for the brightest days, and also have NV settings, if your lucky enough to have NV
The Eotech is a good sight, battery life around 300 hrs, the standard reticle is 60" for the outside circle and 1" for the dot in the center at 100 yards. After using the others, that reticle is too busy for me. I may send it back and get just the dot. It has a great field of view, except for the outside circle, it gets better if the intensity is turned down.
The Cmores I only have on pistols, they are rugged, battery life average, they have very course sight adjustments that take 2 tools to adjust, meaning not field adjustable under battle conditions. If your a set it and forget it guy, no problem.
The Trijicon reflex, I have not used yet, but are less expensive. I mounted it on a Marlin 336 and seems to be a good combo.
The Tasco's are for games, not rugged, but very cheap.
Shop hard, used is good in the quality optics. I have said this often, buy this best optics you can, guns come and go, good glass stays forever.
PS not cheap, but I got mine for 175.00 because it was mounted on a magnum rifle and the rings were not secured enough, heavy scratches, that is the Leupold 1.5x5, vari x 3, it is good enough to use inside the house, no illumination though.
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OK guys, you want an upper to end all uppers, here it is, and I'm going to check it out tommorow.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=151596172
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=150460126
LMT makes Great AR-15's. We'll see. Bill T.
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For shooting I love the Trijicon Tripower, but it has a flaw and I have not sent it back to see if gets better, it has the chevron reticle which I love, up close put the whole chevron on target and press, at distance use it like a front sight, place the target at the tip of the chevron and press. Problem, if I am in the shade shooting at a white plate in the sunlight, it will wash completely out. This is an older model and tritium is dead, man I talked to at trijicon did not give me a lot faith that this issue will be resolved. But I really like it in action.
You can send it back to Trijicon to get the tritium replaced. Not sure what the cost of the replacement is but it's got to be less than a new scope.
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Tom,
I like this tactical carry handle with sight from Rock River. I have seen them much cheaper on Gunbroker.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=280
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Wolfe, I saw that in an old Shotgun News (price was a lot lower :( ) I would go with the standard as the only purpose is that "Retro" CAR look ;D The other one looks like it would raise the optic to high.