The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: 2HOW on December 28, 2009, 02:04:30 PM
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OK you all know I'm not an AR guy. I want to hear, since there has been a rash of different caliber uppers posted, whats the story .? THE GOOD, BAD AND UGLY. I dint want to know about any wussy .22 uppers. I want a good report on a practical hard hitting round that can be used in any situation. Or even a specialty round that has a dedicated mission. I'M SORRY THIS POST IS NOT APPROPRIATE AS TOM HAS A SUBSEQUENT POST> DISREGARD THIS POST
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There are many .308 AR-15 rifles, DPMS makes several models that are well priced, and the .308 is a hard hitting round. Bill T.
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6.8 and 6.5 are supposed to give better long range accuracy from an AR 15 lower, and then there is this, ;D
http://www.galleryofguns.com/about/GGGEntry.aspx
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"wussy .22 uppers"
Until someone is willing to stand up and be shot with a .223 I will continue to have faith in the "wussy" round. But that is a different discussion. ::)
My next build will be a .50 beowulf. Not sure why, but you never know if you will be attacked by a Mack truck.
Or I'm going to get an AR 10 or FAL or.............Lord I need help. ;D
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I want a good report on a practical hard hitting round that can be used in any situation. Or even a speciality round that has a dedicated mission.
That would be those calibers already listed. .308 the most common for ammo availability. Specialties from LWRC, Arma-Lite, DPMS, LWT, Stag,Alexander Arms have those.
Guys kinda wierd, but a good look and description.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51XwLRg4ihA
little better description with range time on this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgrkp8N0HUs&NR=1
(6.5) 120gr. bullet. :o\
Whatchya thinkin' about there 2HOW? New Years' Resolution???
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"wussy .22 uppers"
Until someone is willing to stand up and be shot with a .223 I will continue to have faith in the "wussy" round. But that is a different discussion. ::)
My next build will be a .50 beowulf. Not sure why, but you never know if you will be attacked by a Mack truck.
Or I'm going to get an AR 10 or FAL or.............Lord I need help. ;D
As usual you jump to conclusions JUNKIE, I wasnt talking about the .223 or the 5.56 but the .22. So give us some other knowledge.
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Im lookin at the .450 and the .308 and maybe a little less in a specialty round. Whos Got? lets hear it.
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My apologies then. :-[
I know someone who was building a .300 whisper AR upper. He claimed it was to be a coyote gun with night vision scope, ect.
I just am not familiar with the round.
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Actually, after seeing tests run by Rob Pincus and Phil Strader last year on Best Defense and again by Ed Head and Tom Gresham on Personal Defense TV earlier this year where the .223/5.56 round was shot through several constructions of combined sheet rock and insulation, which were placed about 15 feet apart from one another, I'm convinced that an AR 15, ideally with Hornady TAP rounds, is absolutely the way to go for home defense. This choice is closely followed by a shotgun with birdshot. Neither round will penetrate your home, unlike any handgun round available which will always exit your home if the proper backstop isn't used.
The high velocity of the AR .223/5.56 round, coupled with the yawing effect of the bullet, assures that upon impact the bullet fragments that may make it into a second segment of sheet rock are only tiny fragments that imbed themselves into the wall, unlike a handgun bullet which will just keep on penetrating right through the home and exterior siding.
It's really changed the way I think about home defense, especially with neighbors surrounding my home on all sides. Keep the AR by the bed with a magazine in a GunVault by the bedstand. That way the gun is still safe and unloaded yet readily available should the day ever come.
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450 Bushmaster 50 Beowulf
Bullet wt 250gr 325gr
Velocity 2214 f/s 2010 f/s
Energy 2722 ft/lb 2916 ft/lb
Beowulf has a bigger thump but I wonder how accuracy compares, availabilty of ammo, brass and reloading components, etc.
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6.5 Creedmore has caught my attention. I really don't know much about it, but I believe long range acccuracy is suposed to be very ggod. I think it is available from DPMS and needs the AR10 .308 sized lower. I need to check into the 6.5 Creedmore more.
I also think DPMS has .260 Remington uppers.
I have always liked 6.5 mm rounds.
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Rock River has 6.8 and 458 SOCOM
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=251
DPMS has a bunch of calibers, starting with .204 Ruger, .243 Win, .260 Rem and .338 Federal
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/
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450 Bushmaster 50 Beowulf 458 SOCOM
Bullet wt 250gr 325gr 250gr 300gr
Velocity 2214 f/s 2010 f/s 2000f/s 1900f/s
Energy 2722 ft/lb 2916 ft/lb 2167ft/lb 2405ft/lb
I forgot about the SOCOM
I'm not seeing much difference in these rounds. What would be the deciding factor on which to buy.
Ammo prices pretty much suck on all of them.
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Stag has 6.8 Rem SPC uppers as well as left and right 5.56 uppers.
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Rock River has 6.8 and 458 SOCOM
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=251
DPMS has a bunch of calibers, starting with .204 Ruger, .243 Win, .260 Rem and .338 Federal
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/
Good friend of mine returned home from his Airbase in Tuscon, AZ for Thanksgiving with a Browning A-Bolt Micro-Medallion that was chambered in .308win when we were trading it back and forth in high school, but when he got here he was showing me he'd had it rebarreled with a Douglass Blued-Stainless-Fluted barrel(Made for a sharp looking rig, anyway...) and chambered for .338 Federal. After a couple weeks deer hunting with him, i was really impressed with the caliber. I had a .338win mag Abolt and really liked how it performed on deer. Some call it overkill on Alabama Whitetails but it was accurate and with 215gr Ballistic Tips and 225gr roundnose bullets it was sure devastating on Deer, Hogs, & later on Moose & Grizzley(sold it to my Airforce buddy when he was stationed in Alaska) with heavier lead. He was shooting 180gr Barnes X & 200gr Federal Fusion out of the .338 Fed. Seems to perform about like the .338win mag with 215-225's. Would surely make a fine cartridge if a man were interested in hunting with an AR. I guess its available on the AR-10 receivers. I did like it in the ABolt. Had my .338 been a short action w/ a 22" barrel instead of a 26" then id still be getting talked about bad for hunting a big gun. Ha
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I think the 260 rem is a great round.
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I think the 260 rem is a great round.
I'm with TAB on this. Not sure there's that much more to gain in a 6.5mm that the 260Rem doesn't supply
Now just so we're all on the same page, 2Show.
AR-15 lower - based on 5.56/.223 case. Uppers for 6.8SPC and any other round using the same size case will work.
AR-10 - based on the .308 case. Uppers for .243, 260Rem, 7mm/08, .308 and .338Fed will work on an AR-10 lower. These are all "standard" ammo now, not wildcats.
And of course there are an assortment of specialty ARs in ~.400-.500 caliber.
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I am not a guru 2How but I'll offer my .02. 6.8 seems like a good solid hunting round and more than enough for deer and SD. Downside is that its currently a boutique round, expensive, and hard to find in an SHTF situation. .243 Win would be my choice, but I don't know about mags. The same is true with an AR in .308. Its not really an AR as you need a new lower as well. At that point, I'd spring for an M1A, or an FN or a G3 so you get cheap surplus mags and aren't dependent on proprietary mags. Frankly, I've made my piece with .556. Its a paper puncher and SD gun, and a hunting rifle only in extremis. If you want it all, I'd say either go with one of the .308s or buy an AK, depending on your perceived accuracy requirements and wallet capacity. Hope this helps.
FQ13
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I am not a guru 2How but I'll offer my .02. 6.8 seems like a good solid hunting round and more than enough for deer and SD. Downside is that its currently a boutique round, expensive, and hard to find in an SHTF situation. .243 Win would be my choice, but I don't know about mags. The same is true with an AR in .308. Its not really an AR as you need a new lower as well. At that point, I'd spring for an M1A, or an FN or a G3 so you get cheap surplus mags and aren't dependent on proprietary mags. Frankly, I've made my piece with .556. Its a paper puncher and SD gun, and a hunting rifle only in extremis. If you want it all, I'd say either go with one of the .308s or buy an AK, depending on your perceived accuracy requirements and wallet capacity. Hope this helps.
FQ13
FQ, the reason the Armalite 308 has a lower number than the .223 is because Stoner originally designed the AR as the .308 AR 10 but the Army wanted a smaller caliber so he shrunk his design for the AR 15. ::)
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FQ, the reason the Armalite 308 has a lower number than the .223 is because Stoner originally designed the AR as the .308 AR 10 but the Army wanted a smaller caliber so he shrunk his design for the AR 15. ::)
Tom
My point was simply that if you want .308, you're buying a new rifle, not just slapping a new upper on your existing rig. Its not a $500+mags deal, you're looking at $1200 plus. For that, I'd rather have an M1A or an FN, or 3 AKs. ;)
FQ13
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OK, I understand now. But bear in mind that unlike the ones you mention, the AR 10 (technically the only ones that are "AR 10's" are the Armalite product, but they are all basically the same gun except for proprietary mags. ) has the same versatility with larger calibers as the AR15
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I would like for all of you to subscribe to John Farnhams dt quips, seems the heavier cartridges in the .556 lowers are breaking things. Opening the bolt face is weakening things. The calibers are sound, just overstress the smaller caliber equipment. Going with the larger AR platform, lots of stuff is cool, I too am a big fan of the 6.5, it has everything going for it, SD, BC and inherent accuracy.
Years ago, Springfield made M1'as in .308, 7mm/08, and .243 I have 2 in .308, but would love one in 7mm/08, 1 of my favorite calibers for a long time. Today if the .260 were available it would be tempting.
DPMS uses FN mags, = cheap.
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Tom
My point was simply that if you want .308, you're buying a new rifle, not just slapping a new upper on your existing rig. Its not a $500+mags deal, you're looking at $1200 plus. For that, I'd rather have an M1A or an FN, or 3 AKs. ;)
FQ13
+1. That was my take on a .308 AR. Too much for a different caliber in a same design. I like the Springfield Armory M-1A's much more, and they are available in a variety of flavors as well. Plus they are all steel. Bill T.