Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: JSC3ATLCSO on December 31, 2009, 03:31:55 AM
Title: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: JSC3ATLCSO on December 31, 2009, 03:31:55 AM
Just puking thoughts at this point while watching a special on PBS about the National Parks they are talking about the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corp) and other famous depression relief work. ie the TVA and others. I know why they died out and that is WW2, but why aren't these such organizations resurrected today. Being in a recession/depression why aren't we giving money to people that are doing something to improve the country? In a time of Government budget cuts and layoffs my question is why? Why wouldn't you keep your government employees and even hire more to stimulate the economy. I know this may be a rant and/or beating said dead horse but it is kinda rediculous to pay off the banks and other crooks to just keep the working class down. >:(
I get paid quite well to do a job that most of the time uneventful, but I don't get paid for the work I do. I get paid for the work that I can do. When the SHTF the 4 of us that work in our dispatch center are among the best at what we do. All of us are committed to getting the job done and getting power restored to the Members as soon as possible. I also work on a small family farm and I don't turn in most of the hours I put in there. I enjoy being around the equipment and I also have limited decision making around there. On top of all of that I volunteer for the Local Fire and Ambulance services. BUT.... If I was not where I am today or I were laid off I would go stir crazy at just sitting around and doing nothing. How can people sit there with their hands out and not feel guilty about that. I have never known what it is like to be on welfare. I do know people that have been. All of them felt embarrassed about it. They are (I think) all back on their feet and doing well for themselves now.
Last night on PBS there was a program on about the poverty in Mexico and what they are trying to do to stop it. They are giving money to Mothers of the impoverished in exchange for their kids to go to school instead of working in the fields. The kids also have to go to health check-ups and the mothers have to attend classes on making healthier meals for the kids. They are showing marked improvements in education and health of the NEXT generation in Mexico.
We are no where near that point but they are doing something about it. Why is it so difficult for our World Super Power Government to see this?
Again.. This is abnormal for me to say anything like this. But I'm a little fired up this New Years Eve. Maybe someone here will tell me I'm being a dumbass and I'll go back to semi-trolling around the forum. I am not anti government.. Just anti this government. 1st thing that I believe needs to happen. Get rid of all Lawyers. I think that frivolous lawsuits and outlandish settlements were the beginning of the problem. 2nd thing that I believe needs to happen. Git rid of the current government. 3rd thing I believe needs to happen - Simplify both State and Federal laws. Bill of rights - and 10 commandments. (I am not a church go'er but I do believe that there are simple rules of life and those 20 are it.)
Basicly push the Reset button on the Nintendo..
Again. Tell me if This is just beating the horse... or if I'm totally wrong and need to shut up and get off the forum.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: Texas_Bryan on December 31, 2009, 04:09:12 AM
Your on the right track, but the government programs won't bring the economy back up. If the government pays out a bunch of money for work, like they doing now, then the money has to come from somewhere, us, and we don't have any, so they 'make' more money which is like making more stock in a company except your numbers of shares don't increase but you value decreases. What we need are private sector jobs funded by the private sector. And that's where getting rid of the lawyers, regulations, and taxes comes in. Let me get back to work with out the nonsense that government and lawyers have introduced to the system, I'll have more effort to put forth towards making a product or delivering a service, and I'll have more money to hire other employees to help me do so. Government employees don't stimulate the economy, because they don't make money. Private sector does. Like I tell my dad, a government employee, 'we can't all work for the government, somebody has to pay your pay check, and its not going to be you.' ;)
And in regards to Mexico. The government can't pay people to make long term lifestyle changes, they have to want it on their own, because as soon as the government checks stop they're right back where they started. And if that's not the definition of government dependency, I don't know what is. People pull themselves up out of the gutter all the time. If you want something, work hard, treat people right, and go get it. It four o'clock in the morning here in Austin and that's what I'm doing right now, only sixteen more hours to go today.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: tt11758 on December 31, 2009, 07:11:16 AM
Just a couple of points. You draw no distinction between people who are unemployed due to circumstances beyond their control, and those who are unemployed by choice. Those who are unemployed due to circumstance draw unemployment compensation. This, unlike the money paid to those "sitting on their ass with their hand out" is much like the compensation paid by your auto insurance company when you have an accident.
The other point, while government projects can assist in moderating short-term financial hardship, they don't create jobs, they create work.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: r_w on December 31, 2009, 09:19:38 AM
I have always said that welfare should be a works program. There are plenty of things that need to be fixed around here....
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: Solus on December 31, 2009, 09:46:39 AM
The Government cannot give anything to anyone that they haven't taken from someone else first.
In bad economic times, this practice is especially harmful because they take it from those that managed to operate profitably where others failed.
By bailing out those who failed it not only teaches a poor lesson, but takes the resources from where they will be used to speed recovery and gives them to those who have contributed/caused the problem.
Government policy and intervention not only contributed to the situation but will greatly hinder the recovery.
It took many years to overcome the effects of Government action in the recovery from the Great Depression and I fear that, with all the modern means available, any recovery may be prolonged even more this time around.
My only wonder is if all this is being done again through ignorance/stupid or design.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: ericire12 on December 31, 2009, 09:52:27 AM
I have always said that welfare should be a works program. There are plenty of things that need to be fixed around here....
I think Reverend Al Sharpton would define that as racist
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 31, 2009, 10:06:57 AM
The OP has a point. Good fiscal policy from the government boils down to two points. Save money in good times, (eg hang on to the surplus or better yet use it to buy back T-bills from the Chinese. Don't piss it away on unecessary tax cuts when the economy is humming or go on a spending spree). Spend money in hard times to stimulate the economy, but do it in a way that ensures the money circulates (eg don't give it to banks who won't lend it or give to paper shufflers at AIG). W and BHO didn't get this. A real stimulus plan is a highway bill, school construction, a government contract to American firms, low income housing, better emergency services or even something like CCC. Look at TAB. Hes out of business. If contracts for new school construction or building public works came up he'd have a job, spend the money on groceries and such and stimulate the economy . As a result, we would have something tangible (as opposed to a bailout) and money circulating. CCC did give us a lot, from Dorthea Lang to national park buildings that will be here till the last cockroach dies, to dams, and roads etc. To quote an Indian econ prof of mine, "My country has mouths to feed and hands to work. Give them a useful task, pay them enough to spend in the comunity and the growth becomes self-sustaining. Then step out and let the private sector do it." There is a certain amount of redistribution, but if it is short term and designed not to be a bureacracy like the original CCC, but rather to stimulate necessary projects where the tax payers will get their money's worth, such as nice parks to visit, I'd rather do that than bail out the Wall Street rocket scientists that got us into this mess. At least I'll have a new bridge or a public library to show for it. FQ13
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: ericire12 on December 31, 2009, 10:11:58 AM
The OP has a point. Good fiscal policy from the government boils down to two points. Save money in good times, (eg hang on to the surplus or better yet use it to buy back T-bills from the Chinese. Don't piss it away on unecessary tax cuts when the economy is humming or go on a spending spree). Spend money in hard times to stimulate the economy, but do it in a way that ensures the money circulates (eg don't give it to banks who won't lend it or give to paper shufflers at AIG). W and BHO didn't get this. A real stimulus plan is a highway bill, school construction, a government contract to American firms, low income housing, better emergency services or even something like CCC. Look at TAB. Hes out of business. If contracts for new school construction or building public works came up he'd have a job, spend the money on groceries and such and stimulate the economy . As a result, we would have something tangible (as opposed to a bailout) and money circulating. CCC did give us a lot, from Dorthea Lang to national park buildings that will be here till the last cockroach dies, to dams, and roads etc. To quote an Indian econ prof of mine, "My country has mouths to feed and hands to work. Give them a useful task, pay them enough to spend in the comunity and the growth becomes self-sustaining. Then step out and let the private sector do it." There is a certain amount of redistribution, but if it is short term and designed not to be a bureacracy like the original CCC, but rather to stimulate necessary projects where the tax payers will get their money's worth, such as nice parks to visit, I'd rather do that than bail out the Wall Street rocket scientists that got us into this mess. At least I'll have a new bridge or a public library to show for it. FQ13
Shit-for-brains is trying very hard to make me break my new year's resolution before I can even make it. ::)
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 31, 2009, 10:16:05 AM
So whats your plan, smart guy? FQ13
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: ericire12 on December 31, 2009, 10:37:06 AM
You really need to stop calling yourself a Libertarian if you are going to keep giving these speeches.....
You want Gov't to "build surpluses" and stockpile OUR money? You want them to not waist their time with "unecessary tax cuts" (which, BTW, increases federal revenues)? How about they stay the hell out of my wallet and take only the money they need to function year to year.... How about they spend nearly every hour of every day trying to figure out how to operate on as little money as possible so that they can provide more tax cuts more often and once again...... STAY THE HELL OUT OF MY WALLET!
You want to give people busy work (tasks) and pay them with my tax dollars so that they can build a pretty new museum, a bridge to nowhere, or fancy new emergency services that will only look good on paper? How about we NOT redistribute ANYTHING and just let it all run its course. If something needs to be built, then the market will dictate that and only then will it get built. Lets take the tax burden of small businesses (where 70% of jobs occur anyway) and things will be just fine and in probably half the time as it would with Govt meddling.
Rome is burning, Nero, we dont need to build any new fancy buildings or start more programs that we wont be able to support once the Govt candy is taken away.
Wall Street did not get us into this mess.... govt did. Govt forced lenders to lend to people that had no chance of ever paying back those housing loans.... Govt forced Wall Street to figure out creative ways to get those toxic assets off their books in order to keep their companies afloat..... Govt created this mess and govt is now making it worse.
Words to live by:
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 31, 2009, 11:18:13 AM
As usual you are half right. Wall Street got us here WITH government collusion, from both sides of the aisle. On the left, it was Fannie May and subsidizing unqualified borrowers. On the right, it was lax regulation. They allowed "mortgage brokers" (banks that weren't regulated as banks, like the S@Ls in the 80s) to write paper and sell bundled mortgage securities without full disclosure of risks. Worse, they let them advertise these as "insured" by firms like AIG that weren't regulated as insurance companies, so when the bottom dropped out, there was no capital to offset losses, so the bottom fell out hard. Its the same story with the S@L crisis and the market/banking crisis in the thirties. Government regulation to make tranactions transparent to investors is necessary to a free market. If you know what you're buying, buy it or not, but the states role is to keep business honest. As far as the tax issue, the GOP has adopted it as an article of religion, not an instrument of fiscal policy. Only a fool argues for tax cuts in the abstract. A smart person looks at what government should or shouldn't be doing, and first cuts services, THEN cuts taxes. The great flaw of Reagan was that he put tax cuts ahead of spending cuts. As in my earlier post, this is justified in hard times (such as the early 80s and it would be justified now even if it did run up the deficeit in the short term). It does stimulate the economy. Reagan failed to explain that though. He gave people the idea that they could have tax cuts, the new deal programs (albeit by cutting "waste and fraud"), a huge and necessary military buildup and deficiets were ok. Every president since has followed suit, D or R. Look at W. Great on a $10 trillion dollar tax cut, but where was the $10 trillion spending off set even with a GOP Congress? Oh yeah, a medicare drug benefit and two wars. ::) BO is worse, more spending, not going into the private sector via a temporary jobs progam, but just in a redistributionist plan that creates no real jobs but just taxes Peter to pay Paul. I haven't sacrificed my principles Eric, but I do wonder whether the Kool-ad is effecting your view a little here. Spend, cut taxes, or borrow in hard times. Save for a rainy and scrimp in good times. As a for instance, if W had for gone half the tax cut and bought back $5 trillon in T bills, our indebtedness to china would have fallen by 1/2. Wasted money? I think not. FQ13
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 31, 2009, 11:23:41 AM
As usual you are half right. Wall Street got us here WITH government collusion, from both sides of the aisle. On the left, it was Fannie May and subsidizing unqualified borrowers. On the right, it was lax regulation. They allowed "mortgage brokers" (banks that weren't regulated as banks, like the S@Ls in the 80s) to write paper and sell bundled mortgage securities without full disclosure of risks. Worse, they let them advertise these as "insured" by firms like AIG that weren't regulated as insurance companies, so when the bottom dropped out, there was no capital to offset losses, so the bottom fell out hard. Its the same story with the S@L crisis and the market/banking crisis in the thirties. Government regulation to make tranactions transparent to investors is necessary to a free market. If you know what you're buying, buy it or not, but the states role is to keep business honest. As far as the tax issue, the GOP has adopted it as an article of religion, not an instrument of fiscal policy. Only a fool argues for tax cuts in the abstract. A smart person looks at what government should or shouldn't be doing, and first cuts services, THEN cuts taxes. The great flaw of Reagan was that he put tax cuts ahead of spending cuts. As in my earlier post, this is justified in hard times (such as the early 80s and it would be justified now even if it did run up the deficeit in the short term). It does stimulate the economy. Reagan failed to explain that though. He gave people the idea that they could have tax cuts, the new deal programs (albeit by cutting "waste and fraud"), a huge and necessary military buildup and deficiets were ok. Every president since has followed suit, D or R. Look at W. Great on a $10 trillion dollar tax cut, but where was the $10 trillion spending off set even with a GOP Congress? Oh yeah, a medicare drug benefit and two wars. ::) BO is worse, more spending, not going into the private sector via a temporary jobs progam, but just in a redistributionist plan that creates no real jobs but just taxes Peter to pay Paul. I haven't sacrificed my principles Eric, but I do wonder whether the Kool-ad is effecting your view a little here. Spend, cut taxes, or borrow in hard times. Save for a rainy and scrimp in good times. As a for instance, if W had for gone half the tax cut and bought back $5 trillon in T bills, our indebtedness to china would have fallen by 1/2. Wasted money? I think not. FQ13
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: crusader rabbit on December 31, 2009, 11:31:21 AM
Ericire12 hit it right on the mark, FQ: "You really need to stop calling yourself a Libertarian if you are going to keep giving these speeches....."
Every time the government has lowered taxes, the economy has grown. Will Rogers (who was probably even to the left of FQ) noted that "No man is safe when Congress is in session." But, it all harkens back to one of the original precepts of the Founding Fathers (note that I use the term Founding Fathers not some other PC b/s. That precept: The government is best that governs least. And, it is not just the government's money that comes from the people, FQ. The very authority it claims is only what we the people allow. Unfortunately, when a majority who would rather do less learn that they can vote themselves largess from the minority who have committed to doing more, the result is what we are seeing now.
Finally, FQ, when have you ever got a job from someone on the government dole?
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 31, 2009, 11:46:35 AM
Ericire12 hit it right on the mark, FQ: "You really need to stop calling yourself a Libertarian if you are going to keep giving these speeches....."
Every time the government has lowered taxes, the economy has grown. Will Rogers (who was probably even to the left of FQ) noted that "No man is safe when Congress is in session." But, it all harkens back to one of the original precepts of the Founding Fathers (note that I use the term Founding Fathers not some other PC b/s. That precept: The government is best that governs least. And, it is not just the government's money that comes from the people, FQ. The very authority it claims is only what we the people allow. Unfortunately, when a majority who would rather do less learn that they can vote themselves largess from the minority who have committed to doing more, the result is what we are seeing now.
Finally, FQ, when have you ever got a job from someone on the government dole?
Thats all well and good crusader, but ONLY if you cut spending before cutting taxes, not just putting it on the visa. Now we have been trained to think we can have high spending and low taxes. It don't work that way. A budget is a list of priorities. What you want? How will you pay for it? And THEN make your call. I hate comparing running a government to running a business, but in this case its apt. Don't tell me about how you'll cut my taxes. Tell me what you'll cut and how much I (or we) will save. Don't promise me a new program. Tell me what I'll (or we) will pay for it. Anything else is BS. FQ13
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: ericire12 on December 31, 2009, 11:59:15 AM
Quaker, I am glad you never graded my papers because you really have a hard time reading for content.
There is no Kool-aid drinking going on here, I firmly believe in less taxation AND less spending.... Thats what I meant by "take only the money they need to function year to year".... Some years taxes will be higher, some years taxes will be lower. Its the eternal growing of Govt and the tax and spend mentality that pisses me off. I recognize that the GOP is nothing but RINOs, and thats why I have often preached for term limits in congress. When anyone spends too much time in Washington, they end up turning into mindless zombies.
But back to this Libertarian thing here.... I'm sorry, but you can not advocate for redistribution of wealth, Govt stimulus plans, Govt stock piling of OUR money, and call ANY tax cut "unnecessary" all the while calling yourself a Libertarian. Thats not how it works..... (and thats just the big govt, left wing lunacy that you have put forth in this thread)
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 31, 2009, 12:08:26 PM
Quaker, I am glad you never graded my papers because you really have a hard time reading for content.
There is no Kool-aid drinking going on here, I firmly believe in less taxation AND less spending.... Thats what I meant by "take only the money they need to function year to year".... Some years taxes will be higher, some years taxes will be lower. Its the eternal growing of Govt and the tax and spend mentality that pisses me off. I recognize that the GOP is nothing but RINOs, and thats why I have often preached for term limits in congress. When anyone spends too much time in Washington, they end up turning into mindless zombies.
But back to this Libertarian thing here.... I'm sorry, but you can not advocate for redistribution of wealth, Govt stimulus plans, Govt stock piling of OUR money, and call ANY tax cut "unnecessary" all the while calling yourself a Libertarian. Thats not how it works..... (and thats just the big govt, left wing lunacy that you have put forth in this thread)
I can't call a tax cut uneccesary? I could save a lot of money by following Ron Paul's advice and withdrawing all US troops to the CONUS. I could save more by following my own and legalizing drugs (but you don't like that). I could save still more by abandoning public education and letting parents educate their child or not. The thing is, there is a cost to all of that all taxes aren't all bad because some government is necessary and it costs money. Its like paying dues in a club or tithing at church. The debate should be about what you should be doing in the first place. FQ13
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: tt11758 on December 31, 2009, 12:38:03 PM
I can't call a tax cut uneccesary? I could save a lot of money by following Ron Paul's advice and withdrawing all US troops to the CONUS. I could save more by following my own and legalizing drugs (but you don't like that). I could save still more by abandoning public education and letting parents educate their child or not. The thing is, there is a cost to all of that all taxes aren't all bad because some government is necessary and it costs money. Its like paying dues in a club or tithing at church. The debate should be about what you should be doing in the first place. FQ13
Either you're not listening or your arrogance won't allow your elitist brain to process what Eric is saying. Bring home the troops? Fine. Abandon public education? More people are doing that every year. The bottom line is, cut the waste. If it's a project that is a waste of money, close it down. If it's something that can be run more efficiently, run it more efficiently. I just want the government to stop picking MY pocket because they're too corrupt or too lazy to only do what they should be doing.
The error of your comparison to club dues and church giving is that they are VOLUNTARY. Nobody's gonna confiscate your property or toss your ass in jail if you fail to pay them. You can opt to not join that club or church. The choice is YOUR'S, as it should be, since it's YOUR money. Washington seems to forget that the trillions they waste AIN'T THEIR FRIGGING MONEY!!!!
Rant off.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: Pathfinder on December 31, 2009, 12:40:03 PM
But back to this Libertarian thing here.... I'm sorry, but you can not advocate for redistribution of wealth, Govt stimulus plans, Govt stock piling of OUR money, and call ANY tax cut "unnecessary" all the while calling yourself a Libertarian. Thats not how it works..... (and thats just the big govt, left wing lunacy that you have put forth in this thread)
And that is why I have been referring to him as a faux "libertarian" for - what? - a year now?
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 31, 2009, 12:44:44 PM
Eric is on the right track The Federal Govt has no right to more money than it actually NEEDS there should be NO surplus, if there is then we are being taxed excessively and they should be lowered. As some one else posted Government does not create jobs, the best Government simply creates a business climate that allows CAPITALISM to create jobs, not redistribution of wealth which only a poorly educated person would subscribe to. (Get your money back from that school FQ ) As for unemployment, which I am becoming an expert on, there are over 5 million unemployed Americans, there are about 20 million illegal aliens in the country, Get rid of them, the story that they do jobs Americans won't is BS. Every time Immigration raids a company and rounds up the illegals they are immediately flooded by AMERICANS seeking work. Not to mention the decrease in "Entitlement" payments, crime, prison population and other benefits . And it CAN be done, it was done by Ike.
FQ is also wrong about Wall St. Lax regulation had nothing to do with it, the problem was that there was ANY regulation (AKA Government meddling ) besides sound business practices and the sink or swim regulation of the Capitalist system. If FQ doesn't understand these basic realities then Eric, for all his rudeness is correct, he should quit mislabeling himself as a "libertarian" and call himself what his ideas actually make him appear, a moderate socialist.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 31, 2009, 12:49:56 PM
Either you're not listening or your arrogance won't allow your elitist brain to process what Eric is saying. Bring home the troops? Fine. Abandon public education? More people are doing that every year. The bottom line is, cut the waste. If it's a project that is a waste of money, close it down. If it's something that can be run more efficiently, run it more efficiently. I just want the government to stop picking MY pocket because they're too corrupt or too lazy to only do what they should be doing.
The error of your comparison to club dues and church giving is that they are VOLUNTARY. Nobody's gonna confiscate your property or toss your ass in jail if you fail to pay them. You can opt to not join that club or church. The choice is YOUR'S, as it should be, since it's YOUR money. Washington seems to forget that the trillions they waste AIN'T THEIR FRIGGING MONEY!!!!
Rant off.
We aren't disagreeing. All I want is for you to tell me what is waste and why. Then we cut it and refund the cash. As far as voluntary. Well, reduce taxes to zero. Then we get zero government. Great, until you want to trade mark something, keep the Chinese tanks out of Omaha, or buy a medication that has been tested. There is a difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. It is this. Lincon said it best. The purpose of Government is do only those things for people they can't do for themselves. I agree. But don't give me the whole government bad/taxes evil schtick without laying out a few principles of what we SHOULDN'T be doing. Odds are, I'll agree. The thing is we need a LIMITED government, and it won't run on charitble contributions, the free rider principle proves this. Maybe it should be voluntary. We can go back to Icelandic law. Pay taxes or don't. But if you don't, no police or fire protection, you can't drive on public roads etc. The point is we do need some public services. Pick them and pay for them. What is your alternative? FQ13 PS I agree with Tom on illegal thing. I would bet good money TAB would still be working if he didn't have to compete with companies hiring illegals for half the wages and overhead he pays his guys, and a miniscule chance of getting caught.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: tt11758 on December 31, 2009, 01:04:17 PM
We aren't disagreeing. All I want is for you to tell me what is waste and why. Then we cut it and refund the cash. As far as voluntary. Well, reduce taxes to zero. Then we get zero government. Great, until you want to trade mark something, keep the Chinese tanks out of Omaha, or buy a medication that has been tested. There is a difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. It is this. Lincon said it best. The purpose of Government is do only those things for people they can't do for themselves. I agree. But don't give me the whole government bad/taxes evil schtick without laying out a few principles of what we SHOULDN'T be doing. Odds are, I'll agree. The thing is we need a LIMITED government, and it won't run on charitble contributions, the free rider principle proves this. Maybe it should be voluntary. We can go back to Icelandic law. Pay taxes or don't. But if you don't, no police or fire protection, you can't drive on public roads etc. The point is we do need some public services. Pick them and pay for them. What is your alternative? FQ13 PS I agree with Tom on illegal thing. I would bet good money TAB would still be working if he didn't have to compete with companies hiring illegals for half the wages and overhead he pays his guys, and a miniscule chance of getting caught.
FQ, you apparently missed my point with the churches and clubs reference. That point being that, inasmuch as those are voluntarily joined organizations, the comparison of tithing and dues to taxes is absurd.
You have never heard me say "government bad/taxes evil", what you have heard me say is "excessive government bad/ excessive taxes evil". There is a stark difference, my over-educated friend. Government SHOULD do ONLY what one cannot do for oneself. IE: defense, infrastructure, and precious little else. I will even go so far as to say that, as a citizenry, we should offer a hand up (not a hand OUT) to those productive members of society who are experiencing hardship through no fault of their own. That being said, I believe that hand up is best offered by private charities, religious organizations, etc. (And God knows those could be more fully funded if the asshats in Washington weren't wasting so much of our money.) As for those suffering hardships due to a lack effort or motivation.....screw em.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 31, 2009, 01:24:52 PM
We aren't disagreeing. All I want is for you to tell me what is waste and why. Then we cut it and refund the cash. As far as voluntary. Well, reduce taxes to zero. Then we get zero government. Great, until you want to trade mark something, keep the Chinese tanks out of Omaha, or buy a medication that has been tested. There is a difference between a libertarian and an anarchist. It is this. Lincon said it best. The purpose of Government is do only those things for people they can't do for themselves. I agree. But don't give me the whole government bad/taxes evil schtick without laying out a few principles of what we SHOULDN'T be doing. Odds are, I'll agree. The thing is we need a LIMITED government, and it won't run on charitble contributions, the free rider principle proves this. Maybe it should be voluntary. We can go back to Icelandic law. Pay taxes or don't. But if you don't, no police or fire protection, you can't drive on public roads etc. The point is we do need some public services. Pick them and pay for them. What is your alternative? FQ13 PS I agree with Tom on illegal thing. I would bet good money TAB would still be working if he didn't have to compete with companies hiring illegals for half the wages and overhead he pays his guys, and a miniscule chance of getting caught.
All welfare programs, these were never any business of the Federal Govt., and for the first 150 years of our country were handled more efficiently at the local level by private entities called Aid societies, Church groups, and Charities. they aided the unfortunate instead of supporting the lazy. the entire Dept of Education, better schools were funded with far less money by public subscription on the local level The entire Dept of Health and Human Services, see above I could go on for a while but I don't feel like googling a list of federal Departments and agencies . The fact is that about 3/4 of the Federal bureaucracy is not authorized under a verbatim reading of the Constitution or the intent expressed in the "Federalist Papers " on top of that it is either ineffective, failed, or better managed at State and local levels.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: tt11758 on December 31, 2009, 01:28:29 PM
All welfare programs, these were never any business of the Federal Govt., and for the first 150 years of our country were handled more efficiently at the local level by private entities called Aid societies, Church groups, and Charities. they aided the unfortunate instead of supporting the lazy. the entire Dept of Education, better schools were funded with far less money by public subscription on the local level The entire Dept of Health and Human Services, see above I could go on for a while but I don't feel like googling a list of federal Departments and agencies . The fact is that about 3/4 of the Federal bureaucracy is not authorized under a verbatim reading of the Constitution or the intent expressed in the "Federalist Papers " on top of that it is either ineffective, failed, or better managed at State and local levels.
And that, Mr. B is why you're at the TOP of the ticket for 2012. You took exactly what I was saying, but crafted it in a much more concise way. ;D
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: JSC3ATLCSO on January 02, 2010, 12:39:15 AM
Sorry Been gone for the NYE holiday. First one I've had off for 9 Years so I'll read up and respond!
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: JSC3ATLCSO on January 05, 2010, 11:25:58 AM
Your on the right track, but the government programs won't bring the economy back up. If the government pays out a bunch of money for work, like they doing now, then the money has to come from somewhere, us, and we don't have any, so they 'make' more money which is like making more stock in a company except your numbers of shares don't increase but you value decreases. What we need are private sector jobs funded by the private sector. And that's where getting rid of the lawyers, regulations, and taxes comes in. Let me get back to work with out the nonsense that government and lawyers have introduced to the system, I'll have more effort to put forth towards making a product or delivering a service, and I'll have more money to hire other employees to help me do so. Government employees don't stimulate the economy, because they don't make money. Private sector does. Like I tell my dad, a government employee, 'we can't all work for the government, somebody has to pay your pay check, and its not going to be you.' ;)
And in regards to Mexico. The government can't pay people to make long term lifestyle changes, they have to want it on their own, because as soon as the government checks stop they're right back where they started. And if that's not the definition of government dependency, I don't know what is. People pull themselves up out of the gutter all the time. If you want something, work hard, treat people right, and go get it. It four o'clock in the morning here in Austin and that's what I'm doing right now, only sixteen more hours to go today.
I guess my point was that we are already paying out money to people that are sitting on their asses so why can’t we make them work unless there is a reason they can’t. ie quadriplegic. We have programs already for mentally and physically disabled. So if you can move your arms you can do something.
With the Mexico thing I don’t know the dates on this program. (when it started, is it still going on or when it will end.) they are just trying to get the kids healthier and more educated to get out of the “rut” they are in. The problems in the areas targeted the kids go to school until they are big enough to go to the fields and then they never return to school and continue the cycle. I think the intention is to only get one maybe two generations through to break this cycle. Even by Mexico’s standards it is only $60 a month/kid average. More for girls than boys and more for all as long as they keep passing the milestones set by the program. I DO NOT THINK THIS IS SOMETHING FOR AMERICA. The point of the example was to show that even Mexico is doing something to try and improve the countries standards.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: JSC3ATLCSO on January 05, 2010, 11:31:45 AM
Just a couple of points. You draw no distinction between people who are unemployed due to circumstances beyond their control, and those who are unemployed by choice. Those who are unemployed due to circumstance draw unemployment compensation. This, unlike the money paid to those "sitting on their ass with their hand out" is much like the compensation paid by your auto insurance company when you have an accident.
The other point, while government projects can assist in moderating short-term financial hardship, they don't create jobs, they create work.
Yeah.. As soon as you said that I in no way meant to be demeaning to those that unemployment was beyond their control. As a continuance of the thought… Wasn’t the great depression out of many peoples control. People moved to work for the government programs and moved to where there were jobs in their area of expertise.
Also another note. Can I be in the cabinet for T&T 2012?
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: tombogan03884 on January 05, 2010, 11:58:29 AM
I'm sure we'll be able to find you a job, Probably as the guy who goes around closing down Departments and agencies, we haven't filled that one yet ;D Getting back to the topic the Programs like the CCC were ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS. and the Government works like Hoover Dam were only a temporary fix. when they were finished those people were out of work again. FDR's policies even then were shown to have extended, not shortened the depression. What actually ended it was Hitler's rearming of Germany which caused the other European nations to start scrambling to catch up. this lead to huge orders to US companies for planes arms and munitions which of course lead to huge expansion and hiring in the war industries.
Title: Re: Work for Food, Shelter and Life
Post by: JSC3ATLCSO on January 05, 2010, 01:14:38 PM
It can't be as bad as the lazy F'ers that just sit around getting paid with my money. Our Infrastructure is deteriorating at a rapid pace and I don’t know why we can’t be using the government money to fund contractors. I heard this maybe on this very thread I haven’t had a chance to read all of the comments posted yet. But why not tax companies for migrant labor like we impose tariffs on imported goods. I have worked for many years now. Started when I was about 3-4 working for my Dad and Grandpa at their Sewer and Water business. Professional “GO’FER” Running machines and other stuff that a 4 y.o. shouldn’t be doing but I luckily never crashed anything and have been a very mechanical person ever since. My preteen and teen years bailing hay and straw, planting trees for the neighbors tree farm and through Jr/Sr High School on a Family farm operation with a small confinement and crops. I know that kids need to get their education but why does Lawmakers and Society just keep making kids lazy by imposing the strict child labor laws and etc. I went to school kept my grades at an acceptable level played baseball and wrestled from youth through high school and still found time to work in there. On the farm in high school I still worked about 30 hours a week. 2-3 hours after practice then on the weekends 10+ hour days. Unless there was a tournament or something. I graduated high school early and started in the Plastics factory at 7.50 an hour. Then the sheriff’s office worked my way up to 17+ish an hour and now I’m a little better than that at an R.E.C. Took many years of working to get to this self sustainable level and starting to get a little ahead. I tell that life history which probably bores many people to tell this one. The guy I farm for, His son had NO interest in the farm and was not made to work through high school. (mom said high school was his job) Kid goes to a C. College for a technical degree in Building Construction, Drops out in the first semester Because “He knows everything they are teaching” (which he did not!) and then comes home and expects to get a factory job of some sort with the least hourly amount of 14/hour. GET A F’ING JOB! WTF. Kids don’t want to work anymore and that translates into lazy adults. We’ll be like Mexico if we don’t start making people work. I am again in no way trying to put down anyone that is out of work. Everyone here would much rather be working than not I’m sure. Unless you are retired then you deserve it! Thank you for your service. It is these non-self-improving types that we keep trying to fix and there is no fixing. Make them work for their compensation is all I’m saying.