The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Rastus on January 02, 2010, 03:52:58 PM
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OK. I would like to know who you think builds the strongest AR lower and why.
I've heard LMT, Sabre Defence and Noveske (who makes a device for adjusting gas tube gas for supressors!) are the toughest.
What say you?
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The design is pretty much carved in stone so it would depend on alloy, and the forming process, extruded would be weakest, Milled would be strongest, with Cast in the middle.
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I have an ulterior motive...
http://www.tactilite.com/tactilite-t-1-single-shot-uppers/tactilite-t-1-super-match/flypage.tpl.html (http://www.tactilite.com/tactilite-t-1-single-shot-uppers/tactilite-t-1-super-match/flypage.tpl.html)
A "phased" in purchase made over the year or so as funds become available (anyone wanna buy a bass boat?) for a 416 flavored version with a barrel length to take advantage of complete powder burn.
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Some one else, FullAuto I think, bought a .50 upper about a year ago.
Hopefully he will post his thoughts.
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kilopaparomeo bought a Bohica upper, pm him unless he just wants to chime in here. I have a POF billet machined lower and seems to be very stout, looking at the upper your considering, I think I would buy an inexpensive lower and then find a way to bed the upper that takes the stress off of the retaining pins and their holes.
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Some one else, FullAuto I think, bought a .50 upper about a year ago.
Hopefully he will post his thoughts.
Nope...I bought .50 BMG ammo....
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Must have been KPR like M25 said, I figured he was right, he keeps an eye on that LOOOONG range stuff ;D
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kilopaparomeo bought a Bohica upper, pm him unless he just wants to chime in here. I have a POF billet machined lower and seems to be very stout, looking at the upper your considering, I think I would buy an inexpensive lower and then find a way to bed the upper that takes the stress off of the retaining pins and their holes.
10-4. I did glance at the POF but no one had a recommendation for it that I knew...they had never been exposed to one. However I like the billet being machined as having a lot of strength.
Never thought about bedding. Good idea.
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I have Bushmaster, LWRC, Colt, and Rock River Arms. To be perfectly honest I don't see much, if any difference in lowers. I think most are pretty much the same. If there is any difference it would have to do with the quality of fit and finish, more than any one of them being "stronger" than the other. Bill T.
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I have Bushmaster, LWRC, Colt, and Rock River Arms. To be perfectly honest I don't see much, if any difference in lowers. I think most are pretty much the same. If there is any difference it would have to do with the quality of fit and finish, more than any one of them being "stronger" than the other. Bill T.
But yet that is what I am looking for, something stronger. I was hoping someone could reference something made out of steel or an exotic...say titanium ( ;D ) or something. Something I would feel better about putting a .416 Barrett upper on.
Somebody, somewhere, sometime has got to have built one out of something sturdier than aluminum.
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Rastus, the Upper you are looking at would work even on a Carbon 15. Since it is a Bolt action the only stress points are the take down pins. You do not need to worry about the type of fractures seen in Billt's post on the Umarex .22's
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Rastus, the Upper you are looking at would work even on a Carbon 15. Since it is a Bolt action the only stress points are the take down pins. You do not need to worry about the type of fractures seen in Billt's post on the Umarex .22's
Thanks Tom. I have only half thought this out still being in the slobbering and lustful phase of this long-term wishful project.
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There are several manufacturers of .50 BMG uppers for the standard AR-15 Aluminum lower. Bohica and LRS come to mind. I'm sure there are many others. If you go on any of the .50 cal. forums it's doubtful you'll find a thread about anyone experiencing a cracked lower from their use. If a standard AR-15 lower can take a .50 BMG sitting on top of it, I'm sure it will be plenty strong for any other caliber. Bill T.
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Rastus,
Not ripping your choice, but why are you looking at uppers for an AR? I've been eying the Barrett 99 for a looooooooooooooooooooooong time, and after someone else went with an upper on an AR I compared again.
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Rastus, the Upper you are looking at would work even on a Carbon 15. Since it is a Bolt action the only stress points are the take down pins. You do not need to worry about the type of fractures seen in Billt's post on the Umarex .22's
Like Tom said, the lower's don't partake of the stress in the AR design. Your more likely to break than the lower is. ;D ;D :P
Though if your rich beyond your wildest dreams you could contact a custom house like wilson to build you one out of Titanium. Though the design doesn't really leave much room for thickening the connecting pins without modifying the upper too. :-\
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I was just looking at Barrett's web site and the model 99 uses an Aluminum receiver.
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Could always Do It Yourself ;D
http://www.cncguns.com/downloads.html
Fixturing and progrm will not change based on material but you will want to play with spindle speeds and feed rates. ;D
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Could always Do It Yourself ;D
http://www.cncguns.com/downloads.html
Fixturing and progrm will not change based on material but you will want to play with spindle speeds and feed rates. ;D
Tom
There's a difference between DIY and WTF. ;D
FQ13
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Don't let it intimidate you FQ, It's no different than manual machining, you just communicate with the controls a different way.
Think of it like guiding a blind person down a hallway, in manual mode you put your hands on their shoulders and steer them, In CNC you direct them by text messages ;D
Other wise the hardest part of machining is figuring out how to most securely and efficiently fixture the work piece.
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Rastus,
Not ripping your choice, but why are you looking at uppers for an AR? I've been eying the Barrett 99 for a looooooooooooooooooooooong time, and after someone else went with an upper on an AR I compared again.
No paperwork on upper, lowers easy to find around from individuals with the sucky economy.
$2,600 +/- vs. $4,000 +/- buys most of the scope.
0.5 MOA
I could be wrong, but I don't think I need magazine feed...single shot should be fast enough. If I thought I wanted a mag I'd probably be thinking Barrett 99. But then...I am still in the slobbering lust phase waiting on the Rock River LAR-8 varmint to come in along with paperwork to use the threaded 24" barrel coming with it. All that MAIG talk where Bloomberg and BHO got together has me spooked early. At least I know I can get the LAR-8 right now in the next week or so.
If the lap dog Holder (or some other Administration minion) starts spouting the Bloomberg mantra, I'll be grandfathered...I hope. I'll also jump on that credit card and get the upper before I can think twice. Come to find out...some guy about 20 miles west of here in Hominy sells the 416 machined brass bullets on Gunbroker...must be a sign.
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No paperwork on upper, lowers easy to find around from individuals with the sucky economy.
$2,600 +/- vs. $4,000 +/- buys most of the scope.
0.5 MOA
I could be wrong, but I don't think I need magazine feed...single shot should be fast enough. If I thought I wanted a mag I'd probably be thinking Barrett 99. But then...I am still in the slobbering lust phase waiting on the Rock River LAR-8 varmint to come in along with paperwork to use the threaded 24" barrel coming with it. All that MAIG talk where Bloomberg and BHO got together has me spooked early. At least I know I can get the LAR-8 right now in the next week or so.
If the lap dog Holder (or some other Administration minion) starts spouting the Bloomberg mantra, I'll be grandfathered...I hope. I'll also jump on that credit card and get the upper before I can think twice. Come to find out...some guy about 20 miles west of here in Hominy sells the 416 machined brass bullets on Gunbroker...must be a sign.
The 99 is a single shot no mag. the 95 is mag feed bolt gun.
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The 99 is a single shot no mag. the 95 is mag feed bolt gun.
Still around $4k?
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No paperwork on upper, lowers easy to find around from individuals with the sucky economy.
$2,600 +/- vs. $4,000 +/- buys most of the scope.
0.5 MOA
I could be wrong, but I don't think I need magazine feed...single shot should be fast enough. If I thought I wanted a mag I'd probably be thinking Barrett 99. But then...I am still in the slobbering lust phase waiting on the Rock River LAR-8 varmint to come in along with paperwork to use the threaded 24" barrel coming with it. All that MAIG talk where Bloomberg and BHO got together has me spooked early. At least I know I can get the LAR-8 right now in the next week or so.
If the lap dog Holder (or some other Administration minion) starts spouting the Bloomberg mantra, I'll be grandfathered...I hope. I'll also jump on that credit card and get the upper before I can think twice. Come to find out...some guy about 20 miles west of here in Hominy sells the 416 machined brass bullets on Gunbroker...must be a sign.
I like your thinking though. ;D ;D
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I like your thinking though. ;D ;D
I have blind spot with the Barrett...I don't know what their moa performance is...but then again I'm only reading the interrnet page for the Tactilite too. Tactilite says 0.5 moa with the right ammo...a real draw for me.
The 2,500 yards before transitioning into subsonic is appealing in the 416 as is the higher muzzle velocity at 3,250 fps. I wonder what a 1,000 yard zero looks like at 1 mile. If I get this thing I will be using it in local 1000 yard competitions.
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$4,200 to $4,250 for rifle, case, scope and rings and bipod.
I was comparing that to $2,600 bare upper + lower + optics + bipod.
Just thinking there may not be a lot of difference price wise, but you make some valid other points as well. I'm not trying to change your mind, but was wondering what I might be missing in the thought process.
My biggest hold back is that there is no where to shoot them up here, or I would have had one a few years back. Now, if I were down south or in the wide open western Dakotas, MT or WY it would only be a matter of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ;D
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Just thinking there may not be a lot of difference price wise, but you make some valid other points as well. I'm not trying to change your mind, but was wondering what I might be missing in the thought process.
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Change my mind, please! That's why I posted here to refine my thought process. I lean heavily on the individual transfer and no paperwork upper....and I do like saving a few coin as well. The lower and guts won't be too much along with a bipod....it's the scope that scares me.
Any chance you'll get to come to the Pro-Am????
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..it's the scope that scares me.
Very true. It would be a crime to put anything less than premium on that rifle. I truly envy you for having a 1000 yard range. I'm stuck with a 100 yard here. Its really not much fun with the AR. Shooting a .50 would be like driving a corvette in NYC traffic.
FQ13
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Very true. It would be a crime to put anything less than premium on that rifle. I truly envy you for having a 1000 yard range. I'm stuck with a 100 yard here. Its really not much fun with the AR. Shooting a .50 would be like driving a corvette in NYC traffic.
FQ13
You may not be going fast, but you look really cool doing it ;D
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Rastus,
If your looking for a .50 you might consider the Armalite AR-50. It is a complete rifle for right around $3,000.00. By the time you purchase the upper you linked to, ($2,200.00), add a decent lower, ($400.00), you will be close to what a AR-50 will run. The AR-50 has a good reputation among .50 BMG shooters. It will be much easier to sell if you should choose to do so. Also remember that scope mount set ups for a .50 aren't cheap, nor is shooting it. This stuff all starts adding up really fast once you commit yourself to buying it. This is my Bushmaster BA-50 I set up not that long ago.
(http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/2531/bushnellmountedonba5000q.jpg)
(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/4900/bushnellmountedonba5000.jpg)
Between rifle, scope, rings, mounts, case, and ammo, I've got right around $6,600.00+ in it. And I have yet to buy a single piece of reloading equipment. It's hard to justify that kind of expense for a rifle with such limited use. I'm not at all sorry I made the purchase, I'm just trying to point out that saving a few hundred on the rifle itself isn't as much of a savings as one might think, after everything is taken into consideration. Bill T.
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Good advice Bill. There are some hobbies where if your budget is measured in hundreds, not thousands, its best not to go there. Even if you can afford the entry fee, it will still eat you alive. I got a similar piece of advice from a fishing guide I hired. When I moved back to Fl. I thought I wanted to buy an inshore/off shore skiff and liked his rig a lot. He advised me that when I factored in 5years worth of fuel,maintence, insurance and storage I could hire him to take me out 150 times, twice a month for almost 5 years, and I didn't have to wash the boat or catch the bait. Sage advice.
FQ13
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Rastus,
If your looking for a .50 you might consider the Armalite AR-50. It is a complete rifle for right around $3,000.00. By the time you purchase the upper you linked to, ($2,200.00), add a decent lower, ($400.00), you will be close to what a AR-50 will run. The AR-50 has a good reputation among .50 BMG shooters. It will be much easier to sell if you should choose to do so. Also remember that scope mount set ups for a .50 aren't cheap, nor is shooting it. This stuff all starts adding up really fast once you commit yourself to buying it. This is my Bushmaster BA-50 I set up not that long ago.
I'll give it a look see. Thanks!
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Change my mind, please! That's why I posted here to refine my thought process. I lean heavily on the individual transfer and no paperwork upper....and I do like saving a few coin as well. The lower and guts won't be too much along with a bipod....it's the scope that scares me.
Any chance you'll get to come to the Pro-Am????
The scope is what I was thinking as well. If you look at $2,600 upper + $400.00 lower + $80 bipod + $850 scope and rings = $3,930. Sure it is $700 less than a dedicated Barrett, but do you have the quality?
I'll PM on Pro-Am, but with the wedding on the 19th it will be out this year. I mentioned your idea of shooting Wednesday and Thursday and being there for pictures on Friday, and that went over like a turd in a punch bowl. In fact, it went over so bad that my beard almost wasn't an issue ... now the beard is bad again as well and will be gone early enough that there are no tan lines!
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................ Sure it is $700 less than a dedicated Barrett, but do you have the quality?
I'll PM on Pro-Am, but with the wedding on the 19th it will be out this year. .....
They claim sub 0.5 MOA...I'm on the hunt to see if that's true.
Tell them to move the wedding....how insensitive to not consider your schedule...expecially one of the highlights of the year.
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They claim sub 0.5 MOA...I'm on the hut to see if that's true.
Another thing to remember with a lot of these .50 BMG rifles that make accuracy claims. Most all of them are shot with super match grade ammunition with custom CNC lathe turned, solid brass, match grade bullets that can cost up to $7.00 per round. With standard military grade Ball ammo the groups will open up considerably. With any and all grades of milsurp .50BMG ammo, the thing to remember is as a general rule the more the bullet does, the less accurate it will be doing it.
For example, .50 BMG Ball is the most accurate military ammo. It usually is the most expensive as well. Tracer and armor piercing are a little less accurate. Armor piercing incendiary is less accurate still. Armor piercing incendiary tracer are the least accurate. There is nothing "wrong" with any of these rounds, it's just that most are good for plinking and informal shooting. Out here in Arizona you have to really be careful during the fire season with incendiary and tracer rounds. These things can carry for miles, and they are very capable of starting brush fires. Another thing to remember with a .50 BMG is you can have 3 holes touching on the target, and still have an 1-1/2" group! Bill T.