The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: bulldog75 on January 03, 2010, 01:53:23 PM
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I ran this past Tom and thought it would be a interesting bit of info.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm
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ideal energy transfer is where it goes all the way thru the body, but is stoped by the clothes on the other side. ;D
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Bulldog,
I have posted a topic on something similar and the people who want to believe in energy transfer and such stuff as applied to handguns are legion. They absolutely refuse to believe the science....
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While I generally agree with the provision that bigger holes bleed faster, I have to call BS on this paragraph;
There have been many police officers here in the United States who've been shot with medium-high energy Magnum handgun bullets (as well as shotgun slugs) while wearing soft body armor. Soft body armor is constructed of several layers of fabric. When a projectile impacts soft armor, its energy is transmitted directly through the flexible fabric to the officer's body. There's not one documented incident in which an officer was knocked unconscious or physically incapacitated or in any way rendered unable to perform willful activity after his soft armor stopped such a projectile. These officers absorbed nearly 100 percent kinetic energy transfer, yet none were incapacitated by the blunt trauma "shock" of projectile impact or temporary displacement of underlying soft tissues.
I don't know or care about the math on muzzle energy or any of that stuff but I've been hit with enough crap over the years to know that my total attention at least momentarily goes to dredging up every four letter word that I ever heard.
The reason I don't disagree with the conclusions that the article draws is because the worst thing I've been hit with was small branches across the face on a cold morning ;D
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the vest and the bullet is what eats up most of the energy. Just like when your hit with out a vest, the energy is used to reshape your flesh and reshape the bullet.
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from article:
(and sometimes .380 ACP), you're better off selecting a non-expanding bullet that might exceed 18 inches of penetration than to choose a bullet that expands and underpenetrates. When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. These tiny bullets lack the mass and momentum to achieve adequate penetration after they expand.
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and so lies the quandary, as opinions vary from one spectrum to the other. My .380 Cor-Bon DPX, Speer GD, Rem GS, etc,...are the best ammo you can get for a .380. but where over-penetration is a factor i.e, apt. condo, townhouse, parking lot with bystanders, etc,.. shooting FMJ is better?
maybe I missed something...
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While I generally agree with the provision that bigger holes bleed faster, I have to call BS on this paragraph;
There have been many police officers here in the United States who've been shot with medium-high energy Magnum handgun bullets (as well as shotgun slugs) while wearing soft body armor. Soft body armor is constructed of several layers of fabric. When a projectile impacts soft armor, its energy is transmitted directly through the flexible fabric to the officer's body. There's not one documented incident in which an officer was knocked unconscious or physically incapacitated or in any way rendered unable to perform willful activity after his soft armor stopped such a projectile. These officers absorbed nearly 100 percent kinetic energy transfer, yet none were incapacitated by the blunt trauma "shock" of projectile impact or temporary displacement of underlying soft tissues.
I don't know or care about the math on muzzle energy or any of that stuff but I've been hit with enough crap over the years to know that my total attention at least momentarily goes to dredging up every four letter word that I ever heard.
The reason I don't disagree with the conclusions that the article draws is because the worst thing I've been hit with was small branches across the face on a cold morning ;D
I seem to recall an officer being shot in the back and paralyzed. Granted, the body armor saved his life, but I don't think he would have been able to perform any duties afterward.
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We had a cop take a round to his badge in the last couple weeks. Saved his life and basically bent the badge in a 90 degree angle. Ironically, the PD had only started wearting their badges again and this particular cop was bitching about how much the badge weighed.
He ain't complaining anymore.
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Brings a new meaning to the term "badge heavy". LOL!
I saw one of these cop re-enactment shows where some guy wearing a wife-beater was holed up inside his house. He shot one cop with a shotgun slug. The cop was wearing a vest of somesort but still suffered a broken rib.
Ya break a rib bad enough, it will puncture a lung.
Just for the record...I don't like "always" or "100%" statements.
That website that was linked to above had placed a date with its articles. So Yeah, here it is 2010, I wouldn't be surprised if that article was from 2001. There's been a whole lot of police involved shootings since then. And IIRC, at least one manufacturer of "armor" had a recall. That might have been soldier stuff though.
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Yeah, just as I expected. That link is from 1998. :o
LOL!
At least they did us the service of dating their work.
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Yeah, just as I expected. That link is from 1998. :o
LOL!
At least they did us the service of dating their work.
Tyler,
Modern Calculus is over 300 years old. Do you think it's automatically invalidated because of its age?
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(http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg)
You have to read and understand that this quoted section below is from that link date 1998:
There have been many police officers here in the United States who've been shot with medium-high energy Magnum handgun bullets (as well as shotgun slugs) while wearing soft body armor. Soft body armor is constructed of several layers of fabric. When a projectile impacts soft armor, its energy is transmitted directly through the flexible fabric to the officer's body. There's not one documented incident in which an officer was knocked unconscious or physically incapacitated or in any way rendered unable to perform willful activity after his soft armor stopped such a projectile. These officers absorbed nearly 100 percent kinetic energy transfer, yet none were incapacitated by the blunt trauma "shock" of projectile impact or temporary displacement of underlying soft tissues.
2010 minus 1998 = 12 years
Like I said there have been a lot of officer involved shootings since 1998, probably enough to rule out the "none" part or the "There's not one documented incident...." part of the quoted section above.
Just because something might have happened prior to 1998 and was not documented, it doesn't mean that it did NOT happen.
The internet in 1998 was still kinda in its infancy.
For example, if I am reading this chart correctly:
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GOOG#chart1:symbol=goog;range=my;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
Google didn't have its initial public offering (IPO) until 2004.
I do remember my roommate in the 94, 95 or 96 timeframe had his nose completely buried in AOL chatrooms with a dial up connection. I doubt that many police departments in that same time frame were real quick to broadcast on the internet that their Officer Joe Sixpack got shot with a .38 Special, but was still able to return fire and apprehend the suspect.
Said another way...departments might have been hesitant to broadcast to the rest of the world that either their training sucked or that their TTP's sucked as well.
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(http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg)
You have to read and understand that this quoted section below is from that link date 1998:
2010 minus 1998 = 12 years
Like I said there have been a lot of officer involved shootings since 1998, probably enough to rule out the "none" part or the "There's not one documented incident...." part of the quoted section above.
Just because something might have happened prior to 1998 and was not documented, it doesn't mean that it did NOT happen.
The internet in 1998 was still kinda in its infancy.
For example, if I am reading this chart correctly:
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GOOG#chart1:symbol=goog;range=my;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
Google didn't have its initial public offering (IPO) until 2004.
I do remember my roommate in the 94, 95 or 96 timeframe had his nose completely buried in AOL chatrooms with a dial up connection. I doubt that many police departments in that same time frame were real quick to broadcast on the internet that their Officer Joe Sixpack got shot with a .38 Special, but was still able to return fire and apprehend the suspect.
Said another way...departments might have been hesitant to broadcast to the rest of the world that either their training sucked or that their TTP's sucked as well.
I had to re-read your post several times before I got it, I think. So bear with me. ;)
I understood the original article is from a web site that draws heavily from the research of Dr. Martin Fackler, a surgeon who served in Vietnam (sewed up a bunch of kids over there...). And one of Fackler's pet peeve's was the research (he would say supposed research) from Sanow (can't remember the other guy) about one-shot stops. In short, he thought their research was absolute rubbish. Fackler wrote several articles describing how wound ballistics work. He found that heavier, slower handgun bullets penetrated deeper and caused the most internal damage versus faster, lighter bullets of the same caliber. He also said that unless one got a shot on the central nervous system it would be very unlikely to stop someone with one shot.
I believe the article is furthering Fackler's arguments. The article references several concepts from the field of physics with the message that the energy transfer notion is not valid. When you pointed out the article was from 1998, I thought I would have some fun with you; I'm sorry if you took it personally.
So the larger point of the article is not what you really think its about. You need go read other articles on the site and you will understand what I'm writing about. Here's a link to get you started: http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
-FA
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Oh, NOES! I didn't take it personally. This is the internet and you're some anonymous person. I try NOT to let anonymous people rent space in my head (hey, there is only so much room.... :P ).
Heck, the people that I know and see on a daily basis...well...I try NOT to let them rent space in my head either. ;D
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I'm normally the 1st guy to call BS on such info, with soft body armor you would think, that being hit by a 1 oz slug would be the equivalent of being hit by George Forman, Muhammed Ali in the chest, no penetration but a lot of energy transfer.
Watching Richard Davis ( 2nd chance body armor ) on video that is absurd, I saw the 1st version where he shot himself in the chest 3 times with a .357 mag, and then shot 3 bowling pins to demonstrate his vest was able not just to protect, but allow return fire. As crazy as I have been in my life, I'm not going to test a vest on myself, no matter how much I believe in it.
But here is Richard from 1986 proving his product. Quality is low, effect is high.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg
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^^^ at the 4:58 mark, why does he hold the revolver at such a wierd angle?
Is he "gaming" the demo by receiving a glancing blow?
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Tyler I think it had more to with shooting a full house .44 mag, and how he had to hold it to shoot at himself and still control it. I have never tried it ( shooting with that type of grip ) and don't plan to any time soon.
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An interesting thread in light of a recent story in the news atm.
http://www.news.com.au/world/falling-bullet-kills-four-year-old-boy/story-e6frfkz0-1225815908833
A FALLING bullet shot during New Year's Eve celebrations has tragically killed a four-year-old boy.
The boy, Marquel Peters, was inside a church in Decatur, Georgia, playing a video game when he suddenly collapsed at his parents feet, WSTV reports.
A police spokesman Jason Gagnon said it appears the bullet came through the church’s roof and struck Marquel in the head.
Marquel's parents were initially unaware of his injuries until blood started gushing from his head.
"I saw his Nintendo game fall on the floor, and I heard a sound and I heard him scream a little bit and I looked around and all I saw was blood coming from his head," Marquel's mother, Nathalee Peters, told Channel 2 Action News.
Attempts to keep Marquel alive at the church and later at a nearby hospital were unsuccessful.
"No one knew what it was," Marquel's uncle Garry Peters told WSTV.
"It was just crazy."
Ballistics expert Kelly Fite told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution newspaper that the bullet had most likely been fired from an AK-47 assault rifle and could have been fired as far as three to five kilometres away.
The church's pastor, Lloyd Phipps, told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution that the youngster's death made no sense.
"It's one of those things that you just cannot make any sense out of," Mr Phipps said.
"This lady took her kid to church, which is the right thing to do. And her son got killed because of someone’s irresponsible behaviour."
Police are yet to make any arrests but are 'actively pursuing leads'.
Forget the emotive stuff for a moment and think about the physics of such a feat.
1) an ak round going that far (if of course it was fired by an ak - but I guess that sounds more scary than a cz B/A chambered in 7.62x39)
2) what momentum would it have left at that sort of distance, if of course its possible to even go that far. Also consider it had to go thorugh a roof, presumably not made of tissue paper.
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If the bullet had been fired straight up it would have had to come to a complete halt before it began falling, and while it might have messed him up it would not have killed him since the terminal velocity is determined by the weight of the falling object and at 125 Gr. would not have been that great.
Being shoot at an upward angle however the bullet may start dropping due to loss of velocity but it is still traveling under propulsion rather than simply gravity and it's speed can be greater causing serious injury.
That being said to retain that much energy after coming through a roof, doesn't sound right.
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Terminal Velocity
125 Gr bullet, .30 dia with a cross section of .0707 sq in at medium density air is traveling about 282 ft/second based on this calculation using a 0.30 drag coefficient. And this is assuming the bullet is falling straight down pointy end first....
http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/aerospace/terminal
Might get through the roof, kill someone? Doubt it!
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Terminal Velocity
125 Gr bullet, .30 dia with a cross section of .0707 sq in at medium density air is traveling about 282 ft/second based on this calculation using a 0.30 drag coefficient. And this is assuming the bullet is falling straight down pointy end first....
http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/aerospace/terminal
Might get through the roof, kill someone? Doubt it!
I find that a falling bullet piercing a persons skull then killing them to be a bit far fetched, but for a bullet to first break through a roof... To think that a falling bullet could break through a roof at all, shingles, plywood, more plywood, maybe a big roof beam, insulation, sheet rock...I'm going to need some proof. And I've heard people claim that a .22lr will do the same! Somebody f@#% up and lying is the easy way out.
Back to the rest of the thread, all the cops I've known, have been scared of a bullet hitting the first then, by way of the energy, having internal damage done, specially the to the sensitive heart area. Clearly a bullet won't knock anyone down by way of brute force, but the internal damage done my make it hard to continue standing. Think bones breaking, nerves getting cut and severed.
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I think I would call BS on the injuries to LEO's. One of the big features of newer vest is the addition of material that spreads the energy more effectively. If you shoot an older vest and a new one over ballistic clay it's quite amazing to see the difference.
The old one looks like you hit the clay with a hammer, the new one will have a small dimple.
Doug Campbell of MSA was a Oakland SWAT cop and runs the sales and marketing of the Paraclete. He does vest shoots all over the country. It would make a very interesting show.
Typically you need to make sure the vest will stop the pistol and ammo you carry. A very high percentage of people are shot with their own weapon.
In 2008 there was a new National Institute of Justice standard on body armor for increased protection and longer service.
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I think I would call BS on the injuries to LEO's. One of the big features of newer vest is the addition of material that spreads the energy more effectively. If you shoot an older vest and a new one over ballistic clay it's quite amazing to see the difference.
The old one looks like you hit the clay with a hammer, the new one will have a small dimple.
Doug Campbell of MSA was a Oakland SWAT cop and runs the sales and marketing of the Paraclete. He does vest shoots all over the country. It would make a very interesting show.
Typically you need to make sure the vest will stop the pistol and ammo you carry. A very high percentage of people are shot with their own weapon.
In 2008 there was a new National Institute of Justice standard on body armor for increased protection and longer service.
Remember that most LEOs started by wearing the older vest, so their fears are founded in that. Anyway you cut it nobody wants to shot, vest or no vest.
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the news article said it was a 4 year old boy, so IIRC, up to about 5 years old and maybe a little bit older a little one's skull plates haven't actually grown solidly together . When I converted the feet per second speed into miles per hour...well .... it was 190 mph. I wouldn't believe it either unless I actually saw or recovered the slug myself. Until then, I call bull ka-ka too.
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When Davis did the demos with his vests he would place a stack of magazines or phone book behind the vest before he would shoot himself (granted it still took balls). He was just there to show the bullet would not penetrate.
Turning and shooting targets after you have shot yourself with an excess of padding behind the vest is a little disengenious.
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Terminal Velocity
125 Gr bullet, .30 dia with a cross section of .0707 sq in at medium density air is traveling about 282 ft/second based on this calculation using a 0.30 drag coefficient. And this is assuming the bullet is falling straight down pointy end first....
http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/aerospace/terminal
Might get through the roof, kill someone? Doubt it!
Revised the drag coefficient to .04 (pointy shaped thing) assuming it actually IS falling pointy end first and not tumbling, the speed increases to 790 ft/second. Plausible? Possible? Is the energy still there? If it's tumbling, I say BS...
Still have my doubts...
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1911 Junkie wrote:
Turning and shooting targets after you have shot yourself with an excess of padding behind the vest is a little disengenious.
That isn't the first time some self-aggrandising or self-promoting gun industry jerk has sold disingenious "goods" to the unsuspecting masses.
It won't be the last.
Surprisingly, a fair number of gun people eat that crap up. ???
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When Davis did the demos with his vests he would place a stack of magazines or phone book behind the vest before he would shoot himself (granted it still took balls). He was just there to show the bullet would not penetrate.
Turning and shooting targets after you have shot yourself with an excess of padding behind the vest is a little disengenious.
I don't ever think Mr. Davis didn't say it wouldn't hurt to be shot wearing his vest. He just a said you would not have a bullet hole in you.
Shooting the target after the fact? Well you know somebody is going to claim he was using blanks.
I had to listen to a drone of a sales manager tell me how much of an idiot Mr. Davis was and how his product was sooo superior in every way.
I asked him if I could shoot him wearing the Uber vest, would he shoot himself wearing the wondervest? Would he let us shoot the vest he had with him right then at the range? The answer was no to all. I told him until he could start answering yes to at least one of those, Second Chance was going to keep kicking his butt for sales. He took is MBA and vest and went home.
There are better vests now than the old Second Chance but the demo did a hell of a demo that anybody could understand.
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Two holes bleed faster then one
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I don't ever think Mr. Davis didn't say it wouldn't hurt to be shot wearing his vest. He just a said you would not have a bullet hole in you.
Shooting the target after the fact? Well you know somebody is going to claim he was using blanks.
I had to listen to a drone of a sales manager tell me how much of an idiot Mr. Davis was and how his product was sooo superior in every way.
I asked him if I could shoot him wearing the Uber vest, would he shoot himself wearing the wondervest? Would he let us shoot the vest he had with him right then at the range? The answer was no to all. I told him until he could start answering yes to at least one of those, Second Chance was going to keep kicking his butt for sales. He took is MBA and vest and went home.
There are better vests now than the old Second Chance but the demo did a hell of a demo that anybody could understand.
I understand why he did it that way and I'm not knocking him. If you shoot yourself enough without padding underneath the effects are going to start to add up.
From what I hear he was a decent guy and put on one heck of a match. Just wish I was old enough to have gone to some of them.
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I understand why he did it that way and I'm not knocking him. If you shoot yourself enough without padding underneath the effects are going to start to add up.
From what I hear he was a decent guy and put on one heck of a match. Just wish I was old enough to have gone to some of them.
I heard the matches were something else.
I think John Farnam stiill shoots ballistic material during some of his courses.
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The police even had a press conference telling folks not to shoot their firearms in the air New Year's Eve....
Well we got some real winners here. Video at link.
http://mobile.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI140149/
MIAMI (AP) -- The city of Miami is helping an Italian family whose 6-year-old son was shot by a stray bullet while celebrating New Year's Eve there.
Miami Mayor Tomas Regalado says the boy, Andrea Fregonese, remained hospitalized Sunday in serious but stable condition.
Fregonese was shot in the chest hours after authorities urged Miami residents to stop firing guns into the air to celebrate New Year's Eve.
Regalado says toys will be brought to the boy Monday and his family has been offered a furnished apartment near the hospital, meals from two restaurants and free trips around the city from a cab company.
The mayor said: "I hope the message goes out and people throughout the world see that we care and that we're sorry."
(Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
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shoting a bullet strait up is completly safe.(don't do it) its when you shoot it at a angle that things become dangerous.
strait up the bullet can only come down at its termal velocity. at a angle, it still has part of the velocty from the actual shot.
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One of the reasons I posted this was the part about Trp. Coates. He shot a guy with a .357 at point blank range 4 times and the guy lived to tell his side of the story. Trp. Coats was shot with a .22 at about 20 ft. When I first watched to video it made me sick. The criminal was obese. 5'4" 300+ . When he was shot you would see his body fat jiggle like a sledge hammer hitting jello in a gunny sack. South Carolina went to the .40 cal. and they stated that they needed a better gun.
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Don't need a "better gun" need skinnier criminals.
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Well, now I know why I'm fat.
I'm too cheap to buy body armor. ;D
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Since LEO's can't carry a T/C 375 H+H for duty, these stories will continue. Sadly, regardless of caliber the human body is hard to stop. Let alone drugs, alcohol, adrenaline...
Nice disclaimer TAB...