The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on January 05, 2010, 06:17:12 AM
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Ok, serious question. This came from reading the "tactical knife' thread and I thought I'd start a new one for simplicity's sake. My "tactical" knife is a 1 1/2" plastic and stainless gerber that I use for fishing, trimming hang nails and sundry pocket knife jobs. I've got a 3 1/2" gerber gator I take camping for cutting rope, spreading peanut buter etc. Hunting, I carry a scary sharp buck zipper for cleaning (better than gutting or some unspellable Scottish simile :D) game. I really haven't looked at any of the three as a fighting knife, though all rate as better than nothing. Question is this. In Fl. CCW lets us carry pretty much what we want. As a no-gun back up would you choose a folding knife, a tazer, or a collapsing club like an asp? Personally, the knife would be my last choice. This is because a folder seems slow to deploy and I have to get in real close, at which point it can be taken away and returned anally. A tazer is fast and gives stand off distance, though its effectiveness and duration is iffy. As far as the ASP, if I'm freaked out and in close, I would trust myself to swing a billy club rather than use a knife. Something like an old school K-bar or Bowie is a different animal and not under discussion as you can't really carry it concealed as back-up. I'm talking sonething cell phone size you can stick in a pocket.What are your thoughts?
FQ13
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FQ,
The chances of deploying and using an ASP successfully if you are "up close and freaked out" are much slimmer than being able to grab a handful of a small fixed blade and being able to impact the threat in a clinch or other extreme close quarters situation. This is the reason that many who are very serious bout having a primary option for "in contact" situations or backups/alternatives to their firearm have gone to a small fixed blade carried near "center line" at the belt so that it can be accessed by either hand. So far, the best training that I have had covering this has been from Craig Douglas of Shivworks. I suggest checking out all of his Extreme Close Quarters material.
-RJP
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Thanks Rob.I didn't list fixed blades as an option, because I was thinkinking small and concealed. How small are we talking here on the fixed blades? A small one would make me more comfortable than a folder.
Thanks
FQ13
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Something like one of these might come in handy someday. ;)
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=Push%20Knives&srch=eqWWWCAT_2datarq%3Dpush (http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=Push%20Knives&srch=eqWWWCAT_2datarq%3Dpush)
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(better than gutting or some unspellable Scottish simile Cheesy) ;D
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I think Janich has some stuff posted about this specific topic somewhere on here... The idea being that you carry a fixed blade knife for use as a gun retention tool -- They grab your gun, you cut their arm off. He also went into a few specific knifes that are great for this purpose too.
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Rob would obviously have a more informed opinion on my concern and would like his feedback to see if I am off point. If you are in an altercation and use your firearm and kill someone who was threatening your life and you had a "less lethal" option wouldn't that present a legal issue after the fact that may be exploited by an ignorant prosecutor or a judge with an anti-gun agenda? As we have learned from TBD, there is potential trauma that occurs after an event in court.
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Are you saying the knife is "less lethal"?
I think you are in the clear as long as lethal force was necessary. Survival first.
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I'd go with the knife because it also has other uses, you can't open a package with a baton or a Tazer.
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not to mention in many states you will get in big trouble for having a some striking weapons.
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not to mention in many states you will get in big trouble for having a some striking weapons.
Fl. is pretty liberal. If you have a CCW,it doesn't specify, even switchblades become ok.
FQ13
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and you never leave FL right?
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and you never leave FL right?
Not till April anyway. ;D
FQ13
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If you are in an altercation and use your firearm and kill someone who was threatening your life and you had a "less lethal" option wouldn't that present a legal issue after the fact that may be exploited by an ignorant prosecutor or a judge with an anti-gun agenda?
I think the legal answer is that you only use lethal force for defense when you perceive the need to.
If the question asked afterwards is "wouldn't the taser have stopped the attack?", the answer should be "I needed to use my firearm to defend myself" (as long as you believe(d) that to be true). Saying "gee, yeah, I guess I could've just used the taser" because you might be thinking more clearly or rationalizing other possibilities after the fact or have a new perspective is totally beside the point of the judgement you made while under threat. All of us can look at any number of actual incidents from the comfort of our couches or in a classroom and come up with "better" ways to solve the problems presented... but they are not always relevant to the judgement made at the time given the perspective and knowledge you have then. The most valid purpose in those exercises is to help others prepare for the NEXT encounter.
That's the RJP Answer.
A simpler answer is : "Cops carry all sorts of tools and are trusted to use the right one based on their training and policies." So, if you seek out and can demonstrate knowledge of similar training, you'd be more protected.
Another answer, even simpler, is: The attorney with an agenda could find 1000 things to make you look bad in court, act in good faith, be as prepared as you can and trust the justice system.
I could go on...
-RJP
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Have you checked out Gerbers F.A.S.T. Folder.(forward action spring technology) a slight push and the blade springs open for you,it's pretty fast in opening and can be done on the draw to put in to action,also don't forget you can always use your pistol as a great blunt object that can inflict alot of pain if you thrust the muzzle into the right spot of the body!
People to often forget they themselves are the true weapon,what we carry are just our tools! If need be a good size rock makes a perfect tool,we all know how fast we can throw a baseball, a rock can easily stop a conflict!
I carry a knife,I'm also a Vet so I've had hand to hand combat involving knife fighting,it's something you really want to avoid at all cost's,you can pretty much guarentee if you get in a knife fight your coming out of it sliced up to a certain extent,usually bleeding pretty bad,and knife injuries don't tickle.The only problem with most knife techniques is they can become pretty complicated for the novice who usually doesn't have the motivation to continue the drill to make it imprinted into his memory,which is a disaster waiting to happen.what most People need is just a very simple basic offensive technique with as few steps as possible that will end the altercation as quickly as possibly so they can back off to a safe area to call for help! The best and simpilest move I ever seen for a novice was in Personal Defense Magazine DEC. 2009 issue Page 80 Living on the Edge. This is just my personal opinion other's may disagree with me.Read and decide yourself. Be Safe,stay alert,and I hope all of you have a healthy and much more prosperous New Year then we had last year........CHEERS!
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Most States have specific lengths for ALL knives.
I have been to court on carpet layers who were arrested for having a hawkbill knife on them which is a tool of their trade.
Most Judges will quickly end that case but still police and DA's will push the case against the citizen.
In fights, knives are deadly weapons. The same justifications which apply to using a firearm apply to knives.
The same "deadly sins" ( ie anything done to a weapons to make it more readily deadly ) apply to knives. Imagine two cases, same facts, but one knife is a pocket knife and the other is a COLD STEEL RECON......the jury will see both of the knives and be impressed.
Never name your dog "KILLER' and expect to walk ona dog bite case. The same is true of pulling a knife which is made for killing and slashing.
I carry a KA-BAR Marine knife or a Becker Companion when I am hunting or camping. Simple and usual knives for the circumstances.
I carry a single blade AL MAR knife for daily use. It is a little large and has assisted opening but it LOOKS ordinary.
A better choice for me would be a Kershaw small knife. These are little razors and fast opening too BUT they don't scare Aunt Nellie on the jury. Pull out a RAMBO blade and she will convict you just for the hell of it.
Knives USUSALLY do not kill but you will be facing a civil suit for damges for cutting Bubba a new hole and that could be expensive.
Still, if Bubba is just asking for a new body piercing and the circumstances dictate you have to pull and cut to live, go for it. Just make sure you get witnesses and tell a simple story and stick to it.
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I've often wonder about what the roll in SD a knife actually has, for the most part I can't see myself ever using a knife in SD.
For the most part, I would have to be cornered, vs some one that was going to kill me and there was nothing that could be used as a impact weapon.
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my entire body is a weapon
(http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Scary%20Bicep%20Guy.jpg)
arghhh!
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I don't think Ugly is considered a weapon.
I have the perfect short explanation for using a knife on some one, "I ran out of bullets before they ran out of body temperature".
Of course after 25 rounds of .45 ACP it might take some searching to find an undamaged part to stab.
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I am a huge fan of ASPs and would prefer one of those (specifically a 21-inch Airweight) to a knife. Unfortunately, carry of an ASP is typically more restricted than knives, which are legal in some form in just about all jurisdictions. The ability to carry a potent, potentially lethal weapon legally just about everywhere was a determining factor in my choice to specialize in knives a long time ago.
A good tactical flashlight (high output, shock resistant, and large enough to use as an impact weapon) is a great tool and should be part of everyone's EDC kit. Even in non-permissive environments, you have a potent defensive tool. If you skip the "cheese grater" bezels, you also have an item that is PC enough to go virtually everywhere. That makes it a consistent "layer" of your defensive strategy and something you can escalate "up" to or fall "back" to.
If you don't ever travel outside your gun-friendly jurisdiction, don't mind taking the chance carrying a prohibited weapon (I used to do it, too), or answer every question with "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6," "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight," or some other tired cliche, that's your choice. Whatever you do, I hope it and good judgment in its application serve you well. But please remember the REAL issue here: If you don't have a gun, your gun runs out of ammo, or you suffer a catastrophic malfunction that can't be fixed in the middle of a fight, you need to have a backup plan, tools, and TRAINING to support it.
If your non-gun weapon is a knife, carry it and maintain it religiously and learn how to deploy it and use it under stress. If it's an ASP, the same rules apply. If your plan is to beat your attacker unconscious with your non-functioning or shot-dry pistol, get a blue gun and actually practice hitting a heavy bag with it. Then work with a partner and proper training equipment and practice fending, blocking, and controlling his strikes with a training weapon while you work on your pistol-whipping skills.
I don't mean to rant, but cliches are not a valid weapon and recycling them does little to really advance anyone's planning and training.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Thanks Mike for that very well put together response. I too hate cliche's and internet rumors turned urban legends.
Would you happen to have a "one place shopping " website that might tell us what the individual state laws are on the ASP and other batons?
As far as flashlights go, I got to experience the disorienting effects of a Blackhawk Gladius's strobe light feature. :o
It was at the Blackhawk booth at the 2007 NRA show in St. Louis that I got to be experimented on. Now, maybe it was because we were in a blacked out tent that the effects of the strobe were more pronounced. I dunno... Maybe out on the street the strobe would have less effects....again...I dunno...
And just FWIW, I am not employed by Blackhawk NOR am I distributor for them. My high speed flash light is the seventeen dollar Coleman clone of the Surefire at Wally World. Yes, the Coleman does have the cheese grater bezel. ;D
(sigh)
Maybe one of these days I can afford such a high fallutin flashlight.
(sigh)
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I went through this drill when I travelled a lot for work. The detailed restrictions on batons and pepper spray were mind numbing. I independently came to the same answer as MJ--a good flashlight. Not only is it as benign as possible to TSA or local LEO, it requires minimal training to be proficient--dumb hammer works.
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Thanks Rob.I didn't list fixed blades as an option, because I was thinkinking small and concealed. How small are we talking here on the fixed blades? A small one would make me more comfortable than a folder.
Thanks
FQ13
I've seen a lot of LEO's with one of these in their boot or on their Duty belt. They're no bigger than most pocketknives are open.
http://www.themartialist.com/tdi.htm
My choice would be a knife. Because as it was said, you can open mail, boxes, or cut your pork chops with a knife. Tazers and batons are pretty much single- purpose.
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And just FWIW, I am not employed by Blackhawk NOR am I distributor for them. My high speed flash light is the seventeen dollar Coleman clone of the Surefire at Wally World. Yes, the Coleman does have the cheese grater bezel. ;D
(sigh)
Maybe one of these days I can afford such a high fallutin flashlight.
(sigh)
I carry one of the Coleman lights in my pocket every day (had it about 9 months or so). It is a good little light. The 65 lumen spot beam will hit out to 100 yards and it will light up any area of my home more than enough. It's plenty bright enough to blind someone's night vision in a darkened room. It ain't 'high speed' but it works.
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http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php
I carry one of these. I read the California law on knives and I believe this one to be ok to carry. I've trained a bit with it and feel pretty comfy with it. Since I can't carry a gun this and my inferno spray are my tools that I carry with me. The gun stays at home, or is transported legally when I go on a trip or to the ranch.
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http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php
I carry one of these. I read the California law on knives and I believe this one to be ok to carry. I've trained a bit with it and feel pretty comfy with it. Since I can't carry a gun this and my inferno spray are my tools that I carry with me. The gun stays at home, or is transported legally when I go on a trip or to the ranch.
here is the skinny on CA state knife laws( some citys have laws that go beyond this) you can conceal a fixed single edge blade that is no longer then 3.5" you can wear any size single edged fixed blade as long as its exposed. Floders can be any length as long as they are single edged and not a "switch blade". while that blade would be legall, the round loop makes it a felony to have on your perosn as that would be "brass knuckles"
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Would you happen to have a "one place shopping " website that might tell us what the individual state laws are on the ASP and other batons?
I haven't found anything authoritative, but good places to start are packing.org and bernardlevine.com.
As far as flashlights go, I got to experience the disorienting effects of a Blackhawk Gladius's strobe light feature. :o
It was at the Blackhawk booth at the 2007 NRA show in St. Louis that I got to be experimented on. Now, maybe it was because we were in a blacked out tent that the effects of the strobe were more pronounced. I dunno... Maybe out on the street the strobe would have less effects....again...I dunno...
The more ambient light there is, the less effective the strobe will be.
And just FWIW, I am not employed by Blackhawk...
Neither am I--anymore. And my choice of personal carry items has changed significantly since.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Neither am I--anymore. And my choice of personal carry items has changed significantly since.
Stay safe,
Mike
[/quote]
So what are you carring these days?
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So what are you carrying these days?
I'd like to know that as well,Mike.
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So what are you carring these days?
Primary knife is an Endura plain edge, ground down to 3.5 inches and a more wharncliffe-style profile. It's backed by two Delicas--one plain and one combination edge. My light is an Insight HX120. Carry pistol is a Glock 23 in a Blade-Tech IWB holster.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Primary knife is an Endura plain edge, ground down to 3.5 inches and a more wharncliffe-style profile. It's backed by two Delicas--one plain and one combination edge. My light is an Insight HX120. Carry pistol is a Glock 23 in a Blade-Tech IWB holster.
Stay safe,
Mike
Thank you
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Primary knife is an Endura plain edge, ground down to 3.5 inches and a more wharncliffe-style profile. It's backed by two Delicas--one plain and one combination edge. My light is an Insight HX120. Carry pistol is a Glock 23 in a Blade-Tech IWB holster.
Stay safe,
Mike
Any pics? ???
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Reading threads like this one make me realize my need for more training.
Training means spending money...
Spending money means going broke or pissing off the wife...
I could sell a gun to get the money for traini.... WHAT THE "H" am I saying?!
sigh... I'm hosed.
:)
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Any pics? ???
I posted some on the Spyderco forum on this thread, post #24:
http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41818&page=2
Stay safe,
Mike
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I posted some on the Spyderco forum on this thread, post #24:
http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41818&page=2
Stay safe,
Mike
Very cool. Thank you.
I am wondering about the thought process behind the customization. Why would you change the tip location to the lower point of blade axis?
I really hope that question is stated correctly.
Also of note, I noticed you do not have a clip attached to your knife. Is there a reason for the lack of pocket clip? Also what is your method of carry without using the clip?
Thank you,
tex
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Very cool. Thank you.
I am wondering about the thought process behind the customization. Why would you change the tip location to the lower point of blade axis?
I really hope that question is stated correctly.
Also of note, I noticed you do not have a clip attached to your knife. Is there a reason for the lack of pocket clip? Also what is your method of carry without using the clip?
Thank you,
tex
Dear Tex:
I am a big proponent of wharncliffe blade designs--those with a straight cutting edge and a spine that tapers down to the edge. The reason is that when you swing your arm in an arc to cut something, it makes an arc. If your knife blade has a lot of “belly” (curving up to the spine at the tip), the radius of the edge and the radius of the arc of movement eventually coincide. When they do, you no longer apply pressure into the thing you’re trying to cut. Most utility knives (Stanley razor knives and such) have wharncliffe profiles so they can cut with full power all the way to the point. This is what I tried to achieve when I shortened the blade of my knife.
Also, my knife does have a clip—you just can’t see it in the photos. It’s set up for right-side, tip-up carry.
Thanks for your feedback. I hope this helps.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Thank you very much, it helped answer all my questions, but as usual I have a few more.
Now that you are with Spyderco, will there be a larger influence from you on blade designs, along with matching trainers?
Also are you going to offer advice and/or training material/DVD's/site-video's for the knife design, either through DRTV or Spyderco?
I would like to see your custom turned into a factory run. So, If there is a contact at Spyderco that someone could get in contact with to help show our support of the product idea could you provide it?
I am confident I am not the only one on the forum who would like to support you on this or other ideas for future products.
again thank you,
tex
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Thank you very much, it helped answer all my questions, but as usual I have a few more.
Now that you are with Spyderco, will there be a larger influence from you on blade designs, along with matching trainers?
As Special Projects Coordinator, I will have the pleasure of being involved in product development and will be contributing some designs; however, Spyderco has never been wanting for design ideas. When I joined the company, they already had about 100 designs in development, so it may take a bit of time for my design influence to work its way into the system.
Also are you going to offer advice and/or training material/DVD's/site-video's for the knife design, either through DRTV or Spyderco?
With the help of Mike Rigg, my partner in Stay Safe Media, I will be continuing our YouTube “guerilla” videos on short topics, which will eventually include my insights on the defensive applications of selected Spyderco products. To be clear, I do that on my own time with my MBC hat on.
I would like to see your custom turned into a factory run. So, If there is a contact at Spyderco that someone could get in contact with to help show our support of the product idea could you provide it?
Please join the Spyderco General Discussion forum on the Spyderco web site. It’s the best place to make your opinions, ideas, and suggestions known.
I am confident I am not the only one on the forum who would like to support you on this or other ideas for future products.
Thanks, Tex, I appreciate your support and enthusiasm.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Quote
I would like to see your custom turned into a factory run. So, If there is a contact at Spyderco that someone could get in contact with to help show our support of the product idea could you provide it?
Please join the Spyderco General Discussion forum on the Spyderco web site. It’s the best place to make your opinions, ideas, and suggestions known.
It has been a few days now and I still can not post my opinions of your custom blade. Any suggestions?
Thank you,
tex
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It has been a few days now and I still can not post my opinions of your custom blade. Any suggestions?
Thank you,
tex
Dear Tex:
The gal who moderates our forums had a catastrophic computer crash on Friday after a Windows XP update. She also does all out government sales. She had to reformat her hard drive and re-install all the government bid software to get back up and running and will be going through the forum's new applicants as soon as she can.
Thanks for your patience.
Stay safe,
Mike
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I am up and all is good on the Spyderco forum now, along with my first post.
Thanks again,
tex
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By the way, what a TON!!! of info on the site. Wow.
tex
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By the way, what a TON!!! of info on the site. Wow.
tex
Thanks for joining us over at the Spyderco forum, Tex. Yes, there's a bunch of info there. As knife forums go, it's the best out there.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Try a Spyderco "Lava". It has a blade slightly less than 2" long, made of VG-10 which can be honed to an edge sharper than a razor. It has almost a full sized handle and is very flat in the pocket. It is legal in almost any jurisdiction (check to be sure).
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By the way, is anyone going to the East Coast Custom Knife Show in NYC? It starts today and runs through the weekend.