The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Tyler Durden on January 05, 2010, 02:33:54 PM
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Yeah, click this link:
http://s698.photobucket.com/albums/vv345/thunder69storm/?action=view¤t=Title_01_01.flv
This is where I shoot 2 steel matches, 1 USPSA match and 1 IDPA match a month. It would be a real bummer to see that club get closed down.
Do you guys have any advice?
Thanks!
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Do you guys have any advice?
Yeah..... Dont shoot at the neighbors
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Was the rifle range there when you bought your house?
Yes.
Did you know it was there?
Yes.
STFU!
Honestly, its like people who bitched about construction noise at a college I worked at. Hello, been here since 1895, did you think we weren't going to be expanding? Unless we rept up on you in the dead of night, you don't, or rather shouldnt have a leg to stand on. In real life, I'd suggest you build a large berm. Cheaper than lawyers.
FQ13.
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Sounds like the club is working on the problem about the only way they can. Good rule of thumb for all clubs - buy all of the land within 1/4 to 1/2 mile around the shooting range to prevent the damn developers from creating these situations. Having houses built within 300 yards of the shooting range is not a good idea.
Sadly, if tools like the one interviewed get their way, the club may have to move. Whether the range was there first or not, a well-to-do sub-division with a lot of voters will beat out a club every time, especially where children (already thrown into the mix) and guns are concerned.
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A range I shoot at has had a similar problem. Two men who were walking on the site of a subdivision development across the river from the club claimed they had to hit the deck when they heard a bullet pass close by. The club grounds keeper happened to witness them hitting the ground, so there was some credence to the account.
The rifle range was closed for several years, the club lost maybe half it's membership after that, but is now recovering with the rifle range reopened and membership climbing.
New procedures, rules and physical safety devices where implemented.
I don't know if you care to contact them to see what they needed to do, or if they can help you, but the web site for the club is:
http://www.fairfieldsportsmen.com/
It is located in the Cincinnati area.
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FW wrote:
I'd suggest you build a large berm
Let me see if I can get this link to work. It should be a topo map with contour lines by maps.google.com
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=arnold+rifle+and+pistol+club,+arnold,+MO&sll=36.738884,-96.591797&sspn=31.14946,56.337891&ie=UTF8&hq=arnold+rifle+and+pistol+club,&hnear=Arnold,+MO&ll=38.307719,-90.411386&spn=0.015827,0.027509&t=p&z=15
So IIRC, the contour lines on a topo map represent a 20 foot rise in elevation. So in some spots on that map there is a 60 or 80 foot hill between the subdivision and the range.
So you can't get much of a bigger berm than that.
Here is the same location but an aerial satellite view instead:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=arnold+rifle+and+pistol+club,+arnold,+MO&sll=36.738884,-96.591797&sspn=31.14946,56.337891&ie=UTF8&hq=arnold+rifle+and+pistol+club,&hnear=Arnold,+MO&ll=38.306305,-90.412095&spn=0.007914,0.013754&t=h&z=16
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Muzzle Control! Muzzle Safe Points! The range needs to enforce and educate users. Bullets shot into the air (accidentally or on purpose) may not kill anyone but it causes damage like that shown in the video. People react negatively to bullets raining down on them.
It is unfortunate that people build homes near gun ranges but it is a fact. Unless a range controls all of the land as a buffer this WILL happen. There is a range near me that homes abut the range and the county built a walking path that gets showered with shotgun shot. Unwise land use and zoning. The range is paying the price.
Even Bill Luth's DPMS (DelTone-Luth) range is experiencing urban encroachment and is near the flight path of a regional airport.
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Heck, my range is across the street from an Elementary School but we shoot only in the opposite direction and have several thousand yards of dense woods behind all or our berms. It's only a 17 acre facility but it's down in a gully as well.
The Pincus is doing one of his CFS courses there in April. I hope he's prepared for how small of an area we have.
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Watchman wrote:
Muzzle Control! Muzzle Safe Points! The range needs to enforce and educate users. Bullets shot into the air (accidentally or on purpose) may not kill anyone but it causes damage like that shown in the video. People react negatively to bullets raining down on them.
Hmmmn....uggh...color me skeptical, but I am not so sure that the holes in these people's houses came from guns fired by legitimate gun club members shooting from the range's shooting lines.
The Arnold police department checked out the hole that is in the water tower. They supposedly determined that the round was fired from across the interstate and NOT from the gun club.
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You should see some of the houses that line the fairways at the Rolling Hills Country Club,....
Errant shots, even if 1 in 150,000 rds. fired (at the range, not the golf course), can be lethal. Having a development that close to a range is just stupid.
Markham Park has a rifle and skeet/trap range, rifle range berm is about 50 feet tall, and heavily regulated by range officers.
The trap/skeet range has no real berm but downrange is a thicket of swamp about 250-300 yds thick. They R.O's mandate loads, and the park is surrounded by Southwest Ranches, Weston, and a host of retirement trailer parks.
All newer subdivisions.
Tough call on how to "regulate" a regulated range already. Seems they could not allow hunting in the immediate area, and most of those stray shots would stop.
Is there an instance of houses "hit" every year? Seems the range is open a lot more than hits on a few houses. But the anti's will always blame the range first. Not some hunter who takes a bad shot.
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Is there an instance of houses "hit" every year? Seems the range is open a lot more than hits on a few houses. But the anti's will always blame the range first. Not some hunter who takes a bad shot.
Or a resident who wants the range shut down who sneaks over and lets off a few.
The trap range is pointing directly at a house, maybe 200 yards away? can't tell about the others.
Berms, berms and more berms - good idea. The contour lines on a map are dependent on the scale. Googlemaps up close they may be only 5' increments, but it doesn't say and I wasn't able to figure it out from the contours.
Any way to control ricochets would be good too. Sad situation.
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In the 12 years I've lived where I'm at, 2 large gun clubs have been closed down by housing encroachment. The Phoenix Trap & Skeet Club was there since the early 60's, and hosted the Spring Grand for years. It is the second largest ATA Trap Shoot in the country. They had a trap line one mile long. More recently the Peoria Sportsmans Club was shut down for much the same, housing owners complaining to the city.
The home owners will win, every time, all the time. First they'll come at you with noise. If that doesn't work they'll come after you with safety. If that doesn't work, they'll come back with lead contamination. They'll produce all kinds of lawyers and experts. If that doesn't work, they'll produce whining mothers and housewives, complaining how their children can't sleep because of all the noise, and how it is effecting their school work. On the other side of the isle you guys will be sitting in your tactical pants, and camo tee shirts from Cabela's. The media will be there! I don't need to tell you what the outcome will be. I've seen it too many times, and it stinks on ice! Bill T.
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Or a resident who wants the range shut down who sneaks over and lets off a few.
Whiney yuppies DO NOT like to be ignored. I'll have to agree with this one....
They're in the process of shutting down a range in Sterling, MA and it's a range that the MA SP use for qualifing....BillT has a point, they will not stop..
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My club had a similar situation last year. The club has been in the location for over 40 years. The club is now looking for property in another county. The neighbors haven't gone to the city council yet, but we're not waiting for that next shoe to drop....
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Been down this road a few times, and it is rough, you can spend all kinds of money raising berms and installing baffles, but in the end the NEW townsfolk, can whine and bitch, and show something that looks like bullet holes and you will lose. Have the Board of directors if you have one, talk to the city attorneys and the mayor if possible and get their spin on things, allow the local law enforcement to practice on your range, ( that go's a long ways ) My home range has mobile home park 1200 yards down range, that was not a problem, but they put in a new elevated highway, that can be seen to the east of us, within 500 yards, they wanted to actually put it right over us, but in the end would not buy us out. Now we have gone into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and erected 22' tilt up concrete walls with another 6' of eyebrowes angled in with conveyer belt material to stop ricochets from when you hit other bullets in the berm and they bank off from the impact zone. Our longer ranges now have baffles made from the same conveyer belt material and you have less latitude about shooting positions. Plus these need to be rebuilt from time to time.
Best of luck Tyler, getting the local constabulary and city council on your side early really helps. Just know that spending the nest egg in an attempt to prove your safety, may not work at all, and the money that could have been spent on a new location is lost. >:(
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billT wrote:
The home owners will win, every time, all the time. First they'll come at you with noise. If that doesn't work they'll come after you with safety. If that doesn't work, they'll come back with lead contamination. They'll produce all kinds of lawyers and experts. If that doesn't work, they'll produce whining mothers and housewives, complaining how their children can't sleep because of all the noise, and how it is effecting their school work. On the other side of the isle you guys will be sitting in your tactical pants, and camo tee shirts from Cabela's. The media will be there! I don't need to tell you what the outcome will be. I've seen it too many times, and it stinks on ice! Bill T.
Thanks Bill. That helps to know what their modus operandi will be.
And like another poster already said, we do let the local po-po train out there already. So that helps. ;D
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Give law enforcement free membership. Non-voting membership unless they want to pay dues.
Tell everyone the police use the range. Get government funds to buy them out or move further out to cheaper and more plentiful land.
Truth is...if you impact someone else's land then you are infringing. Lots of LEO involvment can help with the news people...as in you don't want the police to have to do without this range to practice on.
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When I was a member of the Peoria Sportsmans Club, we had the Maricopa County Sheriff use our range for practice all of the time. This is the county you may have heard on the news from time to time. They are led by the now famous, (or infamous, depending who you ask), Sheriff Joe Arpaio. It didn't matter in the least. When the home owners started bitching about the noise and safety issues, we were shut down permanently in a matter of weeks. The Peroia Sportsmans Club had been at the same location for close to 30 years.
"Sheriff Joe" wasted not a minute on this opportunity to get a brand spanking new range built to help boost his image. This is what we ended up with 4 years later.
http://www.joefossshootingcomplex.com/webapp/
So, YES as m25operator and Rastus have said, it helps to get law enforcement on your side. I now shoot here.
http://www.phoenixrodandgun.org/
It has been there for many years as well. The beauty is two fold. The area behind the range has been developed for years, and the area in front is right up against South Mountain. And to frost the cake and light the candles, the Phoenix Police Academy and Firing Range is right next door to us! Between all of that, I think we're safe for a good long time. Bill T.
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I agree with this. Our little sportsmans club closes down twice a month for our county SWAT team to train there. They love us and I think it will go far toward keeping people off our backs as long as possible.
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Give law enforcement free membership. Non-voting membership unless they want to pay dues.
We do this for the town...and they can use the range anytime, 24/7.....365...
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A lot of this has to do with the area of the country you live in, and how they view gun ownership. In the east for example, good luck. The citizenry, as well as the bulk of the media is going to help put most any gun club out of business. But even out here in Arizona, as I have outlined, too many houses will equal gun club be gone. The housing boom expanded many cities too far, too fast. Half or more of the houses that were built, and help close the 2 gun clubs I mentioned, are now either vacant, or else in serious threat of foreclosure. No matter, once a club is gone, it is more often than not, gone for good. It is simply too expensive to relocate, re excavate, and rebuild. Bill T.
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Don't be too hasty Bill....
I live in MA and there are at least 10-12 small ranges within 45 min drive from my house. One of the biggest around is only 40 miles from downtown Boston and about 15 minutes away from where I live. My range is 2-1/2 miles away from the house and we have a small skeet range right down the street.
I'm not defending Assachusetts but we do have some shooters.....a good lobbying group, GOAL and even (GASP!) several state legislators on our side!
http://goal.org/clubpages/affiliatedclubs.html
;)
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GONH is pretty strong as well. NH gun laws are less restrictive than any in the country other than Vermont and Alaska, last I knew Maine was the same way. even though Laconia is located pretty much in the middle of nowhere there are 3 out door and one indoor range within 20 miles of here. The portrayal of the East, especially the NorthEast, as gun unfriendly is based on ignorance generated by the location of liberal media and political groups in Portland, Boston and NY, the rest of the NE is pretty darn gun friendly. Just as an example , Texas does not allow open carry NH and Me. do.
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Texas does not allow open carry NH and Me. do.
So does Assachusetts! Technically..... ;)
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I should have been more clear. When I refered to "the east", I was thinking of New York, and Boston mostly. Perhaps with the Kennedy dynasty dead and gone the people in Mass. will come to their senses and elect someone less socialist. As long as New York has Bloomberg, they are simply running in place with gun laws, Heller and all. I feel much the same about Chicago with Daly, and I spent 38 years of my life there. Gun ownership in and around that city is a constant, never ending battle. After 38 years I grew tired of all of it and left. Bill T.
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Large cities, no matter where they are, are the focus of the gun grabbers since they have a better chance of influencing the votes of elected officials.
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I've been a member of this club for awhile, and there are a lot of things this "newscast" didn't say. For one, as mentioned the water tower incidents have been PROVEN to have not come fromn the range, but from another ridge (the range sits in a valley). The "bullet hole in question was not verified to even be a bullet as of the last meeting. They were still trying to access to investigate the source. There is no direct line from the range to the house in question. It would of been an indirect ND! I know, still dangerous. There is a meeting soon, I'm sure we'll hear more about it. They are attempting to spend upwards of $25,000 to try build more baffles which guarantee no projectiles could reach that area, short of a straight up ND
As a side note, we tried to buy that land before the subdivision was built, but was denied. Also, several LEO groups use the range for training and qualification.
Brian
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bjtraz wrote:
They are attempting to spend upwards of $25,000 to try build more baffles which guarantee no projectiles could reach that area, short of a straight up ND
Baffles are fine for a rifle range with people shooting from a stationary position.
However, I have had my own experiences with a baffled range over here in Illinois. It is called the Caseyville Rifle and Pistol Club, and it is now actually in Mascoutah, IL. CRPC has had its own long and sordid legal battles. ::)
This time last year without my knowledge the "membership" voted to institute a $35 a month range fee.
Well, I had paid $2,000 for a Life membership to the club/range back in about 2001. Long story short, I think they broke a "contract" with me, and I haven't quite decided what I am going to do. ???
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Just an FYI....
Here is what the Caseyville RPC looks like just outside of Mascoutah, IL:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=caseyville+rifle+and+pistol+club,+mascoutah,+IL&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.748002,56.337891&ie=UTF8&hq=caseyville+rifle+and+pistol+club,&hnear=Mascoutah,+IL&ll=38.51927,-89.820147&spn=0.001973,0.003439&t=h&z=18
Supposedly each one of the baffles cost $10,000 each. If I counted correctly, there are 15 baffles.
This range was deisgned by Clark Vargas.
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Latest update! The club voted to spend upwards of $100,000 to move & reorientate (SP?) the rifle ranges to be proactive against any legal issues. Still in the early stages, but gonna happen!
Brian
P.S. A bullet (AK/SKS type) was recovered, but no investigation was done as to which direction it came from. B.
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I should be down there on Saturday morning for the steel plate match, so I will get to hear all the scuttlebutt in person.
Yeah, I had talked to the club president today. I just called him up right outta the blue, I did.
He was actually really pleasant to talk with. I have had my issues...err run-ins with another club member there before (it was about whore-ing up all the brass at/after the steel matches, but that is for another thread at another time)...and the president was really, really fair in that instance.
Well, bjtraz, maybe I will see you out there.
Oh, if you hadn't heard...there is going to be an IDPA practice session in the afternoon, after the steel match. So if you wanted to stick around for that to see what that is like, you'd be more than welcome.
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This is why I am glad my gun range backs up to fort knox... no chance of house building there. Knob Creek is like Heaven...
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This is why I am glad my gun range backs up to fort knox... no chance of house building there. Knob Creek is like Heaven...
Knob Creek is a sweet setup. Been there a few times for the Machine Gun shoot. If I remember correctly, the Knob Creek Range abuts one of Fort Knox's Tank Range? If anyone is in danger, it would be us folks at the range.
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I'm so jealous! I watch that machine gun shoot on tv, and just drool! I've had experience w/automatic weapons in the past, but can't shoot them enough.
Brian