The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on January 10, 2010, 12:31:52 AM
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So I went to look at a duplex today with a friend.
~1300 sqft 3 bed 2 bath for each unit.
long storu short, he bought it for atleast $20 less a sqft then I could build it for him( found a copy of the blue prints behind the water hetter, ) Thats just building the house and the fees, assuming the land is free.
If you take away the hook up fees, school fees and other fees that go with building a house. it came out to less then $60/sqft.
That would just barely cover the materials. I'm not even sure I could get it to the "weather tight" point for that price. ( thats the 3rd draw of a standard 5 draw contract.)
Its not looking good :(
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Two extremes right now...
In MA, 80K buys you about a one stall garage.....In Detroit, you can buy a complete city block of houses for 80K....
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....it came out to less then $60/sqft.
That would just barely cover the materials. .........
Dang TAB, that is mighty high for materials. A cousin built a upscale well-appointed 3,200 sq ft. heated/cooled (add the three car garage) single story house by himself for a lot less in Louisiana, includes concrete and brick too! Now, he had the land, tractors, dozer and backhoes himself, but the actual materials, 150 yards of 5" washed gravel rock for driveway and fuel/electricty the total bill was under $100k. It was a family project so labor was free, to be sure...but the dang thing has 10-12 foot ceiling throughout, higher in the living room, granite counter tops....like about 50 feet of them.
Methinks the California Gold Rush is in building materials. There is no way with free competition that providers could keep prices that high without some opportunistic guys jumping in to cut them so....taxes applied through the system add up, don't they? The prices I spoke about are Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma area prices that don't have the onerous business tax structure ya'll have.
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You are also forgetting the cost of fuel, real estate and labor Rastus. You can't pay Louisiana wages in California and the rent's a whole lot higher too.
FQ13
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I'm tuned in to this stuff TAB. The large inventory of existing construction with drastically slashed value means that very little new construction will take place in the near (2 years?) future. The only market will be remodeling, and that will be on very slim margin until it picks up enough for the remaining contractors to get busy enough to actually charge a decent price for the work. I worked that market hard years ago and had work through the bad times, but you're always competing against the guys with a minivan, hammer, and dog. And I didn't have the "south of the border problem" back then that now exists.
A perfect example is my younger daughter and her husband. They are making decent money, and because of the drop in CA real estate they were able to afford to buy a ranch style house. Now I'm helping them plan the upgrade to their 50's vintage kitchen. That's the kind of work you'd have to pursue.
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Dang TAB, that is mighty high for materials.
Now, he had the land
but the actual ....and fuel/electricty
It was a family project so labor was free, to be sure
What a person lacks in comprehension they sometimes overcompensate for in it's demonstration.
$31.25/sq ft materials only.
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Rastus, I was talking about the expenses of the material suppliers. Stuff is more expensive in Ca. than La. because their overhead is higher via rent, wages, insurance and fuel. I thought I made that clear. Apparently not clear enough.
FQ13
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What a person lacks in comprehension they sometimes overcompensate for in it's demonstration.
$31.25/sq ft materials only.
so he built a 2 story that used wood Ibeams and gluelams every where?
You have to remember, this is a duplex, it has twice the mechanicals as a normal house.
the hook up fees here alone are just nuts. sewer is just under 10k, gas is about 7k, power is about 3k, just to bring it from the pole(undergroundis a bunchmore), water starts at 3k.
no BS you can have 30k+ in just hook up fees. Then there are things like school fees, where this house is located they are $37 per square foot for a 2600 sqft house thats almost 100k.
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Dang TAB, that is mighty high for materials. A cousin built a.... single story house ...... includes concrete and brick too!.....
so he built a 2 story that used wood Ibeams and gluelams every where?
You have to remember, this is a duplex, it has twice the mechanicals as a normal house.
the hook up fees here alone are just nuts. sewer is just under 10k, gas is about 7k, power is about 3k, just to bring it from the pole(undergroundis a bunchmore), water starts at 3k.
no BS you can have 30k+ in just hook up fees. Then there are things like school fees, where this house is located they are $37 per square foot for a 2600 sqft house thats almost 100k.
No, not glue...an executive home. What we have here is an example of becoming accustomed to being taxed to death and not knowing any other way. I hate that for you over there...but with all those additional costs how can anyone afford to buy a house? I guess that way of life is OK so long as your economy brings in wealth from somewhere....doesn't look like that is working out so well for Arnold and, unfortunately, the citizens of California.
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I make a pretty good living here in Massachusetts but even still, I can only afford to buy a home here in 5 or 6 of the poorest communities in the area. Of course the mortgage companies STILL say I can afford more home in a better area but the taxes, PMI and other extraneous expenses need to be considered.
We don't have the problem of school fees, actually I've never heard of something like that, anywhere. That's what taxes are for, aren't they?
The industry needed this correction to bring things back out of the stratosphere, it's unfortunate so many people were affected by it. Too many communities and states have priced the "Normal" population out of the market. The reason Tom has to deal with so many assholes from MA is because the folks that work in and around Boston can no longer afford to live there.
Two or three years ago, a 1500 sq/ft ranch home inside the hub was going for over 1 million dollars and it was probably 50-60 years old. Today, there are hundreds of half finished developements just rotting away, gutted of anything that people can steal.
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You have to understand this house is in the middle of a full built city, the only reason why a house that was built in 06 in on this proerpty is do to the old structure buring down.
When you get out side of the city limits the fees drop drasticly. Where I live for example the school fees are only $8 a sqft. The hook up fees are simlar, but reality is, the price they charge for hook ups are acutally reasonable, when you think that they have to tear up the street, dig down from 6-30 ft, then put every thing back. Charging 10k for 7-10 guys, a back hoe, several dump truck and street repair, that 10k seems really cheap. I'm not sure I could do it for that price.
Devlopers also get "sweat heart" deals when it comes to fees. There is a huge diffrence between some one building 1000 houses and the guy building 1.
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TAB.....you're getting raped!
Those fees are rediculous.
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Property taxs in CA are pretty low compared to the other states I been in. I have realtives in protland that pay more in a month for water, then we do in a year. Thier power is cheaper, but still, I see a water bill thats several hundred a month crazy( like 6 or 7). ours is $26 for the 1st 10k gallons after that its a per cubic ft price, I can't see us ever using more then 10k gallons.
beleave it or not CA is only ranked number 10 in highest taxs per capita.
Vermont
hawaii
wyoming
connectict
minsota
delaware
mass
alaksa
new jersey
are 1-9
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TAB.....you're getting raped!
Those fees are rediculous.
trust me, thats nothing. Since I spealize in older homes I often do work in the bay area. In the city of SF proper, for addions the fees are almost $200 sqft for single family homes. comm'l rates are even more.
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I doesn't matter if it's called a TAX or a FEE.....rape is still rape! Your fees are just ways to f#*k you without the pleasure of a little kiss on the cheek when their done......
Your politicians are lining their pockets. Are the schools any better? Is the water better? Is the sewage treated differently?
I bet not!
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TAB seems to be right on the hookup fees. I don't know about dollar amounts, but they should reflect the actual cost. I don't want to subsidize someone else's house.
FQ13
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TAB seems to be right on the hookup fees. I don't know about dollar amounts, but they should reflect the actual cost. I don't want to subsidize someone else's house.
FQ13
I hooked into my water and sewer in CT for about a grand with two grand in assessments from the town. 10 Large to tie into a water line is excessive unless it's 1/4-1/2 mile from the street. I feel sorry for the guy and anyone else who lives there.
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What people on the east coast may not understand is that here in CA they can't raise property taxes or change mil rates to cover whatever the town or city budget is due to one of those stupid propositions you hear about, so they have come up with impact fees and other taxes for revenue.
I'm sure TAB can tell us what prop # it is and expand on it more than I can.
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As with nearly every ill wind, some folks may be able to find some good. My kid, her husband and my exceptionally bright and good looking grandson (great genes, what can I say?) are going to be able to buy a home in SoCal this year because values are so depressed and they are still earning income. They can buy for much less than the build-costs. Here in Florida, my homeowner's insurance cites a much higher replacement value on my home than I could ever get on the open market were I to try and sell it. That way, they can get a higher premium from me. They do the same thing on a rental property I own--rebuilding would cost almost twice what I could get if I sold. And it's a leap of faith to think I could actually sell. Only things moving around here seem to be foreclosures and bank owned--and that is, I believe, keeping the market artificially lower than it might otherwise be. It's to the point where I would do much better with a totally destructive fire. I think I'd just accept the check, try and sell the lot, and move to Texas with the proceeds. Fortunately or unfortunately, I own all my real estate free and clear except for taxes and insurance, and the rentals are still bringing in some income. But, I'd love to get out from under and leave the state. What I know for sure is this mess has decimated my planned retirement.
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I hooked into my water and sewer in CT for about a grand with two grand in assessments from the town. 10 Large to tie into a water line is excessive unless it's 1/4-1/2 mile from the street. I feel sorry for the guy and anyone else who lives there.
lets do a little math.
10 guys for 8 hours at say $20/ hour. Thats 1600 right there, now double it to cover things like workmens comp, health insurance.. etc thats 3200
3 dump trucks @$500 each for the truck and fuel. we are now at 4700
1 back hoe/ trailer @$1000 $5700
4 loads to the dump at $200 load. $6500
new road base at $30 yard( not you can't re fill the hole with what you took out, thats illegal) there is another $500
we are at $7000 and we still have to put the side walk and the street back.
heaven help you if you crack th emain line and have to replace a entire 10'-20' section of pipe and shut down serivce.
I don't think I could do it for 10k
I forget the prop number that is correct they are very limited at what they can charge for property tax in CA.
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That really blows guys...
My town in CT put in dead ended laterals to all of the sewer and water lines and included the costs into the assessments. All I had to do was tie my main to the septic down the foundation to the driveway and tie into the lateral. Like I said about a grand of my own money and paid the assessment over ten years. That cost included pumping and collapsing of the existing septic tank.
I even got the town to re-sod part of my front yard because they added 10 feet when they set in the curbs.
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sounds like you are paying for thier service by another means.
Which is not uncommon.
having done several decommisioning of sepctic/cess pools, it cost alot more then a grand for just the pumping out and cleaning out of a larger system.
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sounds like you are paying for thier service by another means.
Nope, my taxes on that house were less than 1500 a year. Granted, we had a nuclear power plant in town paying the lions share of the tax base but even after the ten year agreement ended, our taxes didn't go up 20%. The use fees were tied to the water service which ran about 180 per quarter. We even had free trash removal.....
One thing we didn't have in town was a welfare office... ;)
CT taxes are not as high as people think they are and neither are our taxes in MA. Most of my taxes here are sales and use taxes on gas, electricity, cable, telephone and stuff. I'd live here before I'd move back to CA.
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you have to be paying it by other means.
just becuase you are not paying them the money directly it does not mean you are not paying it.
Every thing the goverment does, you pay for. Some times its directly, some times its not.
I'd bet that power plant is paying most of it.
Alaska is a perfect example of large companys paying for just about every thing in the state(oil and fishing) its why they have relativly low tax, but thier per capita tax is so high. a very small group is paying a very large amount.
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you have to be paying it by other means.
just becuase you are not paying them the money directly it does not mean you are not paying it.
I'd bet that power plant is paying most of it.
Yes, it's called industry! We allow industry, nuclear plants, submarine construction, bio-med, electronics, health care, the military and other industries thrive in the New England states. It's why, even now, we have low unemployment rates, relavatively inexpensive electricity and low state income taxes.
Again, it's the use taxes, gas, booze, cigarettes and luxury items that you get hammered for. If you don't spend a lot of money, and I don't, you pay less taxes. Simple enough......
As Rastus says, you've gotten used to the fact that things are rediculously expensive and refuse to believe that it could be better elsewhere.
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so the fact that some one else is paying makes it less expensive?
Are you sure you did not vote for Obama?
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so the fact that some one else is paying makes it less expensive?
Are you sure you did not vote for Obama?
You're missing the point there Kid...we don't have the rediculous regulations you have. What should I have to pay that you're confused about? What fee should I pay? I ask the towns for nothing, never have!
In fact, in CT and MA I can be the prime contractor on my own house. As long as I follow code and pull the proper permits and get the proper inspections and signoffs, I can do 100% of the work myself. I don't know about the other NE states because I've not live in them yet.
The towns I live in are just that, TOWNS, they are not cities that suck the very soul out of their societies. I refuse to live in ANY city in this country. The population of my town in CT was about 10-12K, the town I live in now is 4,039 and we do just fine!
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I think that almost everywhere the homeowner can act as their own GC assuming the meet all requirements. Whether or not that translates into cost savings is another question entirely. Professional contractors look at fees and licenses as a part of doing business, and those costs just add to the cost of the house. When someone buys the house it includes all those costs.
In my area municipalities had different requirements and many had set up a lot of their own fees. The bureaucratic overhead varied a lot from town to town, and it showed in property costs. The funny part is, it becomes part of the inflated value of the property and they end up assessing property taxes partly on those big crappy fees they charged for you to build the place.
Like so many other things, construction is double, triple, and probably even quadruple taxed by our innovative government.
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no where in the country can you do 100% of the work. No untily will let you touch thier stuff, some will let lic people do it. for the most part you still need to envole the untilty, to do part of it.
What I'm talking about is if a job cost 5k to do, and they only bill you 1k, some one is still paying for it. Its just not you directly, it does not make it less expesinve.
While some costs can be very diffrent from area to area, many stay the same. a 90k back hoe is a 90k back hoe. 20 gallons of fuel per hour is still 20 gallons of fuel per hour. A truck tire is a truck tire. Etc, etc. The fact of the matter there are really only 2 things that really change price wise in this country, thats labor and material. In the case of road way construction, the main reason why materail prices are diffrent is do to transpertion cost. if you nee 3/4 crushed stone and you live in say mississippi, you are going to pay more for it then you would here. Sand would be the other way around.
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no where in the country can you do 100% of the work. No untily will let you touch thier stuff, some will let lic people do it. for the most part you still need to envole the untilty, to do part of it.
You are correct. Then 99%!
TAB, the point I tried to make is that there are places in this country that actually stop spending money when the town budgets are exhausted.
One way to bring more money into a town is to allow more business which in turn creates jobs and adds to the tax base. Fees established for building homes that are excessive only have one result......less homes, less work, less employment, etc....because every fee you incurr you pass on to the homeowner. Eventually, you have no work because no one can afford to live in these areas.
I truely wish I could live somewhere else but obviously it's not as bad as some areas. I wish you all the best but you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
And to anwer your question......I voted for my DOG as a write in candidate!
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don't forget HVAC
you need a lic to install and service those every where in the country.
I'd say its more like 90% and 75% of the total cost.
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so he built a 2 story that used wood Ibeams and gluelams every where?
You have to remember, this is a duplex, it has twice the mechanicals as a normal house.
the hook up fees here alone are just nuts. sewer is just under 10k, gas is about 7k, power is about 3k, just to bring it from the pole(undergroundis a bunchmore), water starts at 3k.
no BS you can have 30k+ in just hook up fees. Then there are things like school fees, where this house is located they are $37 per square foot for a 2600 sqft house thats almost 100k.
And I had the nerve to grumble about the $95 it cost for the 1500 sq. ft. building permit to build my shop. :o
$55 was for the build permit and $40 was for the electrical inspection.
My wife and I did all the electrical inside and out to the meter base and my electric company came out (after the inspection) and set a pole, installed a transformer, and ran the underground lines to the meter base. No charge from the electric company either.
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No charge from the electric company either.
Wrong Peg. You, and your neighbors got charged. You're paying for it in your light bill. Now, I can go either way on this question, do we stick the builder for the full cost so we aren't forced to subsidize someone else? Or, do we spread the cost out over everyone's bill as more construction equals more jobs and is to everyone's benefit, and no one wins from a prohibitvely high fee that might have kept you from building that workshop? There is merit to both sides, though I lean towards the former, but in neither case is it "free".
FQ13
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don't forget HVAC
you need a lic to install and service those every where in the country.
I'd say its more like 90% and 75% of the total cost.
Now you're just nit-picking..... ;D I don't know about MA but in CT back in the 90's I could install my own boiler, with permits, and all the licensed guy had to do was the final like the electricity. We didn't have gas in the neighborhood and most homes are heated with a forced hot water boilers. Pretty simple stuff, buy it, plump it and light it......it was the oil tank and supply lines that needed the Pro to finish. Once done, he'd do an efficiency test and sign off..
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I was speaking more about AC systems.
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I was speaking more about AC systems.
Never lived in a house that had central air, it's not that common out here but I'm sure you're right about the final installs. I did design and build ventilation systems for 14 years so I have no problem with the work. Just never had to do it for a home.
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In Me and NH you can do all the work yourself only permits needed are building permits in most, but not all, towns, Perculation test of the soil if you are going to have a septic system Leach bed and electrical have to be inspected. (Electric by town building inspector or Electric Co. before they will make the final hook up, You pay for everything from the last existing pole, first 300' are free. Leach bed has to be inspected by the the engineer who did the Perk test before you cover it. )
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In New England where they get you is if you contract for asbestos or lead paint removal you're going to pay through the nose for a contractor to perform the work.
If the homeowner chooses to do the work, he can basically rip the stuff out of the house and throw it into the trash at the curb. If the contractor does it, then all the regulations kick in and it makes a 2K job run to 20K...or more. About twenty years ago, they changed the regs so that no home could be sold with lead paint or asbestos in it and the seller had to remove it or pay someone to do the work. You don't hear about it much anymore.
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There's a house up the street from me, $180K Beautiful, inside and out, worth easily double the asking price, Been on the market for years. Furnace works fine and has been well maintained for the entire 80+ years it's been under that mound of asbestos. Knob and tube wiring is in excellent shape as well ::)
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Sorry, I don't buy that about asbesto there are federal laws that come into play about the transpertation and diposal.
You can sell a home that has asbesto and/or lead paint here, you just have to disclose it. I delt with it all the time, as long as you don't mess with it, its fine.
there are alot of things you can do, does not make them legal. Tom, you paid for that hook up, every time you pay your power bill.
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There's a house up the street from me, $180K Beautiful, inside and out, worth easily double the asking price, Been on the market for years. Furnace works fine and has been well maintained for the entire 80+ years it's been under that mound of asbestos. Knob and tube wiring is in excellent shape as well ::)
Sounds like my BIL's house. He paid about 15 grand to remove his boiler. The new one takes up about three square feet compared to the 6' diameter beheamoth that he got rid of.
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Sorry, I don't buy that about asbesto there are federal laws that come into play about the transpertation and diposal.
You can sell a home that has asbesto and/or lead paint here, you just have to disclose it. I delt with it all the time, as long as you don't mess with it, its fine.
there are alot of things you can do, does not make them legal. Tom, you paid for that hook up, every time you pay your power bill.
I guess I wasn't clear, My Dad was 1800' from the last existing pole, He had to pay for everything from there to the house but they knocked off the cost of the first 300 feet, (might have been a senior discount) it was tacked onto his light bill $X per month, as others built on the road they got hit with a pro rated piece of the cost and his payments were lowered.
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In Me and NH you can do all the work yourself only permits needed are building permits in most, but not all, towns, Perculation test of the soil if you are going to have a septic system Leach bed and electrical have to be inspected. (Electric by town building inspector or Electric Co. before they will make the final hook up, You pay for everything from the last existing pole, first 300' are free. Leach bed has to be inspected by the the engineer who did the Perk test before you cover it. )
You are absolutely correct Tom.
The last house we had in Maine I did all the work my self including plumbing, heating, septic and electrical. I even hauled most of the materials myself. I chose to sub out the concrete foundation, chimney and some brick work but I could have done that myself as well.
In order to get a construction loan the bank required that the building inspectors submit a letter stating that everything I was doing was being built to code and was being inspected on a regular basis.
The electric company at that time would provide one pole at no charge so I trenched out to where the pole was going and ran underground to that point. I provided the conduit and clamps and they made the connection at the pole.
After the town inspector signed off on the electrical they came back and set the meter.
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http://www.mass.gov/dep/air/asbguid.htm#Inquiries
The EPA defers to the MA regulations regarding asbestos removal and disposal.
It is strongly recommended but not required that a licensed abatement company be used for removal. As to disposal, if it is properly wetted and double bagged, it can be disposed of in a MA landfill certified to accept it. Twenty years ago, things were a bit more lax.
You are correct in that if it's in good shape and not disturbed, it can be left alone. I was incorrect on that point.
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When I was in the National Guard they made us give up the asbestos mitts for changing machine gun barrels. They made us triple bag them is trash bags, each one had to be wrapped in Duct tape and then the outer most one tied shut and marked "Hazardous Waste", then they replaced them with bright Yellow oven mitts ::)
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its actualy the DOT that has the issue not the epa,( then there is osha which we won't get into) asbestos its found in the ground all over this country.
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Wrong Peg. You, and your neighbors got charged. You're paying for it in your light bill. Now, I can go either way on this question, do we stick the builder for the full cost so we aren't forced to subsidize someone else? Or, do we spread the cost out over everyone's bill as more construction equals more jobs and is to everyone's benefit, and no one wins from a prohibitvely high fee that might have kept you from building that workshop? There is merit to both sides, though I lean towards the former, but in neither case is it "free".
FQ13
Well, considering my bill for my shop averages about $10 a month, I don't feel like I'm getting fu**ed too badly. It goes up slightly in the summer when we run the pool filter pump.
It is understood that the cost base for monthly charges is derived from an average of installations, maintenance, labor and usage per month....what I meant was that there was no extra charge by the electric company to hook up my base.