The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: D Haught on January 10, 2010, 07:45:30 PM
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This is based on a situation that happened to me one day before I started carrying and I'd like some opinions on how to handle something similar to this.
You take your dog for a short walk in your neighborhood at night and encounter a group of 5 or 6 apparently highschool aged males who upon noticing you begin to approach you and taunt you apparently trying to start trouble. To continue back to your home you need to pass by or through this group of individuals. Other than superior numbers and a confrontational attitude they have made no physical or verbal threats but are directly in your path and approaching you. You are legally carrying a concealed firearm, as well as a flashlight and a cell phone, while walking a small dog which serves as no deterrent. There are no side streets at this point and yards are fenced. What are some good ways to approach this situation? If they have no visible weapons but are attempting to block your path and confront you what kind of action should you take? 6 people is definitely disparity of force. People also tend to be more bold in groups.
Should you turn around and head the other way? You can't get home that way and they are already walking towards you and less than 50 feet away. How should you verbally and physically respond in this type of situation?
I know this is kind of a loaded scenario but it is very similar to a situation I encountered where I was able to turn onto my street and be within about 60 feet of my front door and just went inside. I also wasn't carrying at that time. I have since pondered the appropriate response to that situation if I were further away from my house and not able to immediately escape it.
Should you turn and walk back away from the direction that takes you home? Even if they don't pursue you still have to go by them to get home and what if they pursue? I wouldn't think it would be advisable to try to split the group and walk through them.
I'm sorry if this thread isn't very well constructed but I would appreciate some input on possible ways to handle this situation because to this point nothing that has happened would justify brandishing a weapon which is illegal in my state.
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I guess I'd ask two questions. 1) what type of high school males (no I'm not profiling, just do they set off the "thug" radar, though appearances can be deceiving) 2) Do you feel like your life is in danger, or are they just being bullies?
I wouldn't flash a gun unless you are prepared to use it and can justify it. This is doubly true as pack mentality might make them feel that you won't use it , and do something stupid, and that leads to badness. Don't escalate till you have to. First choice is eating a little humble pie, try to verbally descalate the situation while gaining some real eastate and if possible walk away, even if it means walking around the block to get back home. If that fails, it gets tricky. If they close in, how close is too close? My own (very, very limited experience) says ten feet is too close. Its at that point you draw or don't. That is in no way a reccomendation, just what I have sort of set as a personal line after mulling over a scenario a whole lot. It seems the minimum safe distance to flash before having to fire, but its still iffy. Honestly its going to come down to deciding if you're dealing with boneheads or thugs, and there will be hell to pay if you call it wrong one way or the other.
FQ13
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As they get close tell them to keep moving or they will blow a police stake out. Touch your ear with your hand and say "No, don't do anything. I think they will be cool".
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Dial 911 on the cell phone before they reach you, have your finger on eht send button. If they start something, hit send, and engage them in conversation. It may take a while, but the police will show up.
The disparity of force in some states is not considered adequate for show of deadly force. If you do have to draw, call 911 immediately and get them there on your side, otherwise it will be the word of these "choirboys" against yours.
Get a bigger dog while you're at it, something like a German Shepherd! ;D
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A lot of assumptions, because even though you gave a good description there is a lot to fill in:
Fifty feet and closing is plenty close -
1. Change course - cross the street. If they continue to block or prove to be strutting and posturing do an about face providing you are not heading into a "dead end." Further from home is not bad if you can eventually get there.
2. If they are proving that they have intents - just harassing or otherwise, use your phone to call 911.
3. If you continue to feel a threat, while on line with 911, shine light and with a strong verbal command order them to give you space. In EMS we were taught and taught that a six foot radius was "our property," and no one was allowed in that perimeter without our permission. Due to how fast a threat can close distance we protected out to twenty feet.
4. Do not panic, and do not run, unless being chased. Be confident and strong, but do not threaten what you can not promise - if you don't have a gun, don't threaten to shoot. The nice thing about calling 911 first is that when you say the police are on the way ... they are!
5. On your own posture and presence: As Walt Rauch has said - You don't want to be a sheep. You want to be grissle. Stand tall and confident, don't look down or away. Move straight, tall and with purpose. Wolves attack the weak. And as I add - Don't go looking for wolf packs to test this out!
Stay alert, be observant, and stay alert!
I'm sure there will be much more, and I look forward to hearing form Rob and Michael.
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Thanks for the replies and yes I am also hoping to get the take of Rob or Michael as well.
I understand that my post may not be the best but I had a similar scenario happen once and I happened to be close enough to the house to just turn down my street and go inside and call the sheriff's dept. to notify them of the group.
It was a mixed group of whites and blacks that I encountered and no I did not feel that my life was in danger at the time but I think that in general I would not have initially felt that my life was in danger but even without obvious weapons a group that size can be deadly even with bare hands and feet.
The problem I see is that when encountering groups the pack mentality can take over and someone within the group almost always will try to agitate the situation and the person or people that are showing off for their buddies. Also with groups, if an attack does develop it has the potential to be immediately overwhelming and much more violent in some cases than 1 on 1 confrontation. I also see no need to assume that "High School age" appearing individuals are necessarily that, nor are they any less dangerous than adults in a situation like that.
After mulling this over for a while I decided to post it to get some input since I wasn't exactly sure how to approach a similar situation if avoiding the confrontation by crossing the street or just giving the group a wide birth was not possible such that the group was intent on confronting me. Obviously simply being confronted isn't justification to draw or especially to engage with a firearm but if the confrontation was forced you could obviously be overwhelmed quickly should the situation deteriorate to physical violence.
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That's the thing D Haut. It doesn't do much good to shoot yourself into a jail cell. It seems the not looking like easy prey/trying to move away and descalate/calling the cops are your best options. Fine, that's all easy advice. You already knew that. How to deal with it if that doesn't seem to work? Damned if I know. I guess you coonvince yourself that you've done everything you can to get away, hopefully initiate contact with cops and then roll the dice. Hope you'll be ok without bringing the gun into play or decide that you need to? At which point you've bought the ticket and you take the ride. I don't think there is a right answer here.
FQ13
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I would first cross the street if they did so as well I would call 911 and report that they were harassing passersby, (in your first post you mentioned they were taunting you ) I would keep the dispatcher on the line while I passed them, and I would be obvious about having the cops on the line.
As far as the gun goes, how you carry may determine your response, if you pocket carry you can have your hand on the grip ready to draw with out it being obvious, other types of carry that is not possible but depending on local climate you may want to unzip any jacket or cover garment that may impede your draw if it's needed, slide your thumb back along your belt to make sure your shirttail is not going to impede your draw, and mentally accept that things may very well be going to hell in a handbasket in the next couple minutes.
If none of that works and they attack you, kill them all if you have to bite out their throats and gauge out their eyes until they quit trying to harm you. BUT REMEMBER THE INSTANT THEY CEASE TO ATTACK, YOU ALSO MUST BACK OFF.
You can't, like in some of these videos, chase down the survivors, or finish off the casualties.
In closing I would strongly urge professional Self Defense training that covers the zero to 5 foot range such as offered by Michael Janich or Gabe Suarez.
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I agree with Tom here, I think he summed it up. The Monty Python drill (run away run away, or walk away in this case) is always the best and cheapest option. Failing that try to cover your ass legally (via the 911 call which will indicate you felt threatened), and literally, which means making the decision BEFORE you touch your gun, that you are prepared for things to get ugly. This is the nightmare scenario. Multiple attackers, no clear cut justification like a burglar or carjacker, and a real caveman level sense that your life is in danger if you don't react, coupled with the knowledge that you will go through legal hell at best if you fire. I can think of few worse scenarios. Gotta say D, for guy with 2 posts, you're turning out to be quite the buzzkill. ;D
FQ13
PS welcome aboard
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When on walks or hikes I have pepper spary and my ccw, your cell phone is a must as others have said, 911.
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I think avoidance is the key here.
I would also not be at all hesitant to call 9-1-1 in that situation. The taunting was most likely a legal "assault" and the cops showing up would probably be just the kind of thing to tone down most kids if they were harmless. If they weren't harmless, maybe the call will result in a violation of probation conditions or just getting their faces & names on the police radar.
-RJP
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All sound advice, my .02 cents would be perhaps what I see folks walking with. A walking stick, that is originally intended in rural areas to defend yourself against mean stray dogs, or dogs that may get through a fence that is in disrepair.
My neighborhood is full of kids of all ages, and I have a small dog. I don't carry a pistol everytime I walk the dog, but I have a Cold Steel 91 WAS African Walking stick. 37" long, from coldsteel.com, and just stroll with it. (kinda like a staff but shorter, longer than a cane, but thicker.)
Here's the link:
http://www.coldsteel.com/sticksportal.html
http://www.tacticaloutpost.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10709
Visual to any group, would still work against a loose mean dog, and perfectly legal.
Cell phone is always a good idea. But when seconds count, the Cops are minutes away. I would hate to fatally shoot a 17 year old "pack" of neighborhood punks acting stupid, but if they approach and get close, and your directly threatened with injury or worse, hit/shoot the biggest one first, preferably hit, but your neighborhood may dictate the threat level.
Walking with a visually potential "skull cracking" implement, generally will make the "kids" just keep going.
Mine was less than $25.00.
World isn't as nice as it used to be.
tw
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I inheireted an old school shillieghle. Irish blackthorn with knobs and and a natural handle where it was cut off the bush. It has zero intimidation factor which sucks as it loses deterent value, but it is as hard as iron wood (lignum vitae), which will actally sink in water. Not what you want to get hit with. I hadn't thought about it for low key SD, but TW just changed my mind. Legal, inconspicous, non-lethal (maybe, see if I care if I actually have to use it) and no one will notice. Maybe an in your face "whup ass stick" would be better as a detterent, but either is better than an ASP and less likely to involve jaill than a Glock. Thanks TW.
FQ13
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Thanks for all the replies, they have definitely given me some things to think about when attempting to be prepared for situations like that. I have not been approached by anybody on my walks with the dog since that night and I'm glad it didn't turn into anything serious that night but I still want to try to run through some possibilities mentally to help be better prepared. There have been several police officers move into the neighborhood in the last year and it seems to have helped calm the kids around here down but you never know. I think avoidance would be my first tactic as well as having 911 ready, but getting an on duty deputy out here can take ten minutes or more depending on proximity and that is certainly long enough for things to degrade should a confrontation be forced. I plan on taking more training to hopefully learn how to think in those situations and handle it well.
These are all helpful things to think about and something I can pass on to my wife to give her an idea of how to respond in similar situations if she goes out for a walk. I am actually planning on getting a bigger dog too, not primarily for protection but I'm sure it doesn't hurt from a deterrent standpoint. She recently joined me in getting her CCH permit but hasn't taken to carrying 24/7 like I have but she does at least keep it with her in the house and in the car when she is out.
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Glad to help confuse you you D. ;D In re. the dog, I personally like pointers, but that's because I chase quail. For a pet/SD dog, there really doesn't seem to be a much better choice than a German shepard or a Belgian malnois (same dog, just smaller). There is a reason most PDs and militaries use them. They are smart, friendly and easily trained. Just do not skimp and go to the pound. Spend some time researching and find a quality breeder. The $500-$1000 you spend on a good pup is the least amount you will ever spend on a dog given food, vet bills etc.. Likewise get it professionally trained for defense. I do this with my bird dogs for hunting. yes its a bit pricey, but Idon't have 500 acres and pens full of quail. I'd rather pay for a job done right than a half assed job I try to do myself. A good pup, good socialization, two or three months at summer camp with a good trainer and you following up religiously on drills....well, you'll have a good friend and an excellent defense for you and the wife.
just my .02
FQ13
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The situation with the wife and I is getting more complicated because she is about 5 months pregnant right now and it is making me more emphatic by the day that she learn more about defending herself. Once the baby comes then it is a whole new game with new rules that I will have to try to break down and prepare for.
As for dogs I am wanting a boxer. It was between that and a Rotty but the wife won't go for anything bigger than a boxer right now and I know boxers are great with kids but I dont' have much experience with Rotty's.
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Perhaps just a good OS spray, congratulations on the upcoming addition to your family.
Yes the "game" will change.
Boxer or Rotty?
With a baby? Get the Boxer.... Rotty's are a working, full time, mega attention dog. With a new baby? Boxer's, especially a puppy, have a better disposition, and would be a good choice. Right up there with a good Lab, or Golden Retriever.
Although I was raised with a Warlock Doberman, mom stayed home, best dog I ever had. When my younger sister was born, (4 years younger than me), that dog saved her life, and there was a bond with that dog, that most cannot compete with.
Also funny to watch "kids/ adults", cross the street when we were walking up the sidewalk.
;D
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The situation with the wife and I is getting more complicated because she is about 5 months pregnant right now and it is making me more emphatic by the day that she learn more about defending herself. Once the baby comes then it is a whole new game with new rules that I will have to try to break down and prepare for.
As for dogs I am wanting a boxer. It was between that and a Rotty but the wife won't go for anything bigger than a boxer right now and I know boxers are great with kids but I dont' have much experience with Rotty's.
Let me again emphasize a quality breeder. Particularly with those breeds. Doubly so with Rottweilers. There are way too many backyard breeders turning out trash and while boxers can be good dogs, they can also be neurotic PITAs. Breeding is key becauce a neurotic boxer or Rott is just plain dangerous and you will have a small child at home. Again I really would reccomend you look at the malnois (about 60-75 pounds, ike a mini-shepard).They seem to be smart, steady and the AKC hasn't screwed them up by breeding for confirmation at the expense of brains. However, you're wife's pregnancy throws a wrench into the works (congrats by the way). Puppies and infants are both PITAs in the same way for the same reasons. I would either buy an older trained dog or hold off for a year or two on the beast or you will drive yourself cazy.
Good luck.
FQ13
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There's always a way home,turn around take a longer walk,take another way home,you have a phone,use it,call someone to pick you up,if you feel threatened you better call 911 before you use your gun,you had ample time to, as you suggested,otherwise I'd say, to a jury you'd look pretty quilty here!
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+1 with Rob and the rest...avoidance avoidance avoidance, especially in the case as outlined. If I have to engage verbally — which has happened — I like the "verbal jujitsu" concept of sending mixed messages...verbally submissive but more aggressive body language, e.g., moving to a flee or fight position, or, if you're carrying a pocket pistol, placing your strong hand in the pocket and achieving a good draw grip on your gun, then quartering your body with the weak hand outstretched palm forward (and ready to block). At that point I'm being verbally submissive and well as physically submissive with palm-forward weak hand, but I want the aggressors to be worrying whether I'm armed or not. If you're facing real predators who are "interviewing" you, as opposed to over-testosteroned college students (who can indeed be dangerous!), they know what the beginnings of a draw stroke looks like and they're not going to risk the gun.
Better to be gone!
Michael B
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I inheireted an old school shillieghle. Irish blackthorn with knobs and and a natural handle where it was cut off the bush. It has zero intimidation factor which sucks as it loses deterent value, but it is as hard as iron wood (lignum vitae), which will actally sink in water. Not what you want to get hit with. I hadn't thought about it for low key SD, but TW just changed my mind. Legal, inconspicous, non-lethal (maybe, see if I care if I actually have to use it) and no one will notice. Maybe an in your face "whup ass stick" would be better as a detterent, but either is better than an ASP and less likely to involve jaill than a Glock. Thanks TW.
FQ13
I own a imitation blackthorn walking stick purchased from Cold Steel, same folks who have the African Walking stick. (I have both to allow for some fashionable variation). While I do not have the talent to use it as a martial arts weapon, it might serve to cause hesitation as I brandish it in my off hand and acquire a grip on my pistol.
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I inheireted an old school shillieghle. Irish blackthorn with knobs and and a natural handle where it was cut off the bush. It has zero intimidation factor which sucks as it loses deterent value, but it is as hard as iron wood (lignum vitae), which will actally sink in water. Not what you want to get hit with. I hadn't thought about it for low key SD, but TW just changed my mind. Legal, inconspicous, non-lethal (maybe, see if I care if I actually have to use it) and no one will notice. Maybe an in your face "whup ass stick" would be better as a detterent, but either is better than an ASP and less likely to involve jaill than a Glock. Thanks TW.
FQ13
It's "Shillelagh" there Professor.....never let a Scot have an Irish weapon... ;D
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Don't talk like that Tim ! It would deprive us Irish lads of the fun of Claymores ! ;D
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Don't talk like that Tim ! It would deprive us Irish lads of the fun of Claymores ! ;D
The Scots can have their "very big swords", we'll keep the ones that go boom!
;D
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OK. Those are from DuPont any way ;D
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I would agree with most everything others have said, but with a couple of exceptions. My only concern about the walking stick approach is this: As someone who often finds himself in need of the use of a cane for walking, I have the fear of a cane or walking stick sending a "victim here" message to potential evildoers. This is the same reason that I use the mirror-hung handicapped parking placard in my truck instead of getting one of the disabled license plates. The only time the placard is visible is when I park in what my doctor calls "Rock Star Parking".
I realize that the above statement is a LITTLE off topic, but my point is that a cane or walking stick can be seen as a sign of vulnerability by potential attackers and may serve to escalate the situation rather than de-escalate.
Remember, the only fight you ever REALLY win is the one in which you don't participate. DEESCALATE, DEESCALATE, DEESCALATE!!!