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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: clayflingythingy on December 18, 2007, 09:33:30 PM

Title: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: clayflingythingy on December 18, 2007, 09:33:30 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317398,00.html

I get thoroughly PO'd when I read stories like this.

Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 18, 2007, 09:59:57 PM
No Knocks should be illegal (actually I think they are via 4th Amendment).
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: TAB on December 19, 2007, 12:13:00 AM
I watched them do the conga line of death in to the wrong house about 4 years ago.   It was just around the corner from me.  It was a duplex, they went in the wrong side.   It was actually very funny, more so since every one on the block knew which door they should have gone in.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: mgobel on December 19, 2007, 10:50:44 AM
I live in  the MSP area and this happens way too often.  At least they did not kill an elderly couple this time.

Mark
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: DDMac on December 20, 2007, 06:07:15 AM
The lead investigator needs to go to work for the Post Office. Delivery to the wrong house won't get anybody killed. Mac.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: pioneer on December 20, 2007, 12:36:51 PM
There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of crap!  These kinds of raids happen way too often.  It comes down to lazy, sloppy police work. 

I can't tell you how many affidavits of search warrants I have written, and not one has ever been lost in court, and I never went to the wrong house.  Never! 

It takes a lot of work to write a search warrant and they are not easy.  They shouldn't be easy.  From what I understand in this case, the information was supplied by a drug informant.  There is no one on the face of the Earth more unreliable than a drug informant.  When you get such information, you verify it.  How?  By sending in an undercover to actually make a purchase, or by surveillance where you can prove that drugs are being dealt.  These cops are just lazy, and can't wait to get dressed up in their ninja costumes and play SWAT commando.   Sometimes there is a valid reason for a no-knock warrant, but they have become routine and abused. 

The home owner did what all of us would do in the same circumstances, and he was well within his rights to do so.  Fortunately no one was killed.   

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/Police/130-224.jpg)
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: gunman1911 on December 20, 2007, 09:35:44 PM
In my years as LEO I've learned that there is now room for erreos o mistates because that is what kills people or senda the wrong ones to prison YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOUR RIGHT. It needs to be verifyed time and agian as for no knoks well sometimes these things need to be if a bad house has a lot of bad people with firearms in them ,are the any kids that can get in the way are the neighbors clear incase of a gun fight, and the lst goes on, THATS WHY YOU NEED TO BE RIGHT!

Pride,Integrity,and Guts---you can't have the last one without the first two.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: 45shootr on December 21, 2007, 07:34:52 AM
Fortunately you were a leo and not an English teacher!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 21, 2007, 07:44:45 AM
Fortunately you were a leo and not an English teacher!
Fortunately you are a English teacher and not a LEO. I didn't know we were grading posts now!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: tumblebug on December 21, 2007, 10:12:30 AM
PLEASE PLAY NICE
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 21, 2007, 11:48:52 AM
Gunman,

I have a really hard time coming up with a reason for no knocks. 

If they are bad guys with guns, wait for them to come out and then arrest them.  If they have a hostage, well I don't see a need at that point as the house should be surrounded and the bull horns blasting BEFORE a 'dynamic entry".

Certainly drugs are NOT a reason to possibly endanger either innocents or police in this type of raid.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 21, 2007, 01:44:39 PM
Gunman,

I have a really hard time coming up with a reason for no knocks. 

If they are bad guys with guns, wait for them to come out and then arrest them.  If they have a hostage, well I don't see a need at that point as the house should be surrounded and the bull horns blasting BEFORE a 'dynamic entry".

Certainly drugs are NOT a reason to possibly endanger either innocents or police in this type of raid.
Haz, There is a huge tacital advantage in no knocks. #1 Catch them off guard in the middle of the night and unprepaired to fight back. #2 Catch all the rats in one den. But they MUST be sure that there are on innocent people there, and it MUST be the right door that there breaking down!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: gunman1911 on December 22, 2007, 05:42:42 PM
yea lets play nice and see who you call the next time your in trouble, a cop or a English teacher!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 22, 2007, 08:16:43 PM
Yes, I understand the tactical advantage (10 years  military 73 -83), but I do not see why we need it for drugs.  If you are sure a kidnap victim is in the house then I'll give you a go depending on the situation.  But for drugs, or armed robbery suspect or even a murder suspect I see no reason.  He will go to the store at some point or you can simply surround and wait.  He isn't going anywhere and he can't hurt any one else.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 22, 2007, 10:27:55 PM
yea lets play nice and see who you call the next time your in trouble, a cop or a English teacher!
That's GREAT!! I can't stop laughing!!!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: gunman1911 on December 23, 2007, 09:00:56 AM
Quote from: Hazmatlink=topic=1078.msg9409#msg9409 date=1198376203
Yes, I understand the tactical advantage (10 years  military 73 -83), but I do not see why we need it for drugs.  If you are sure a kidnap victim is in the house then I'll give you a go depending on the situation.  But for drugs, or armed robbery suspect or even a murder suspect I see no reason.  He will go to the store at some point or you can simply surround and wait.  He isn't going anywhere and he can't hurt any one else.

Does the military wait until the bad guy comes out, no innocents hurt, always the right info. Do you think drug lords are any better than kidnappers murders rapist, do you know that most of the aforementioned are doing these crimes because of drugs or the need of them. Just wait them out? I'm not going to get into that political pile of#@$!. I respect what all of you have had to say but  we (most of us) strive to make sure people are safe and don't think that people suffer consciouses when things go bad. All I'm saying is nobody and I MEAN nobody is perfect, if you are ,you do the job, lets see you go through  the door. P.I.G. Pride Integrity Guts! And that is the last I have to say on this matter.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 23, 2007, 10:05:21 AM
Does the military wait until the bad guy comes out, no innocents hurt, always the right info. Do you think drug lords are any better than kidnappers murders rapist, do you know that most of the aforementioned are doing these crimes because of drugs or the need of them. Just wait them out? I'm not going to get into that political pile of#@$!. I respect what all of you have had to say but  we (most of us) strive to make sure people are safe and don't think that people suffer consciouses when things go bad. All I'm saying is nobody and I MEAN nobody is perfect, if you are ,you do the job, lets see you go through  the door. P.I.G. Pride Integrity Guts! And that is the last I have to say on this matter.
Here! Here! It's a tough enough job without all the Monday moring quarterbacks (especially the media!) coming out of the woodwork. Every situation is different! They can't account for every possible problem!  Remember you only ever hear when things go wrong NEVER when they go right!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 23, 2007, 10:34:50 AM
The police are not the military.  And I believe in the 4th amendment just as stongly as I do the 2nd amendment.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 23, 2007, 12:07:10 PM
The police are not the military.  And I believe in the 4th amendment just as stongly as I do the 2nd amendment.
The 4th Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and was originally designed as a response to the controversial writs of assistance (a type of general search warrant) I too believe in the 4th amendment. I believe we are talking about legal warrants here. I also believe that if your child had to walk by a crack house to and from school everyday, you might just have a different few on those type of raids.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 23, 2007, 12:22:37 PM
The 4th Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and was originally designed as a response to the controversial writs of assistance (a type of general search warrant) I too believe in the 4th amendment. I believe we are talking about legal warrants here. I also believe that if your child had to walk by a crack house to and from school everyday, you might just have a different few on those type of raids.

[Amendment IV]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Breaking down my door on a no knock sounds very unreasonable to me.  Yes. of course the warrents are legal, that doesn't mean they are constitutional in my view (Same as many of our thoughts on 2A Laws).

My son does ride by a crack house on his way to school.  As a matter of fact I live near one.  We are working on getting the problem solved.  How?  The neighbors and I are on a constant watch, taking pictures and license plate numbers, etc.  We are also resolved in the idea that a midnight raid is NOT the way to handle it.  Too dangerous for everyone.

Have you ever seen this map?

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Pathfinder on December 23, 2007, 12:34:29 PM
Does the military wait until the bad guy comes out, no innocents hurt, always the right info. Do you think drug lords are any better than kidnappers murders rapist, do you know that most of the aforementioned are doing these crimes because of drugs or the need of them. Just wait them out? I'm not going to get into that political pile of#@$!. I respect what all of you have had to say but  we (most of us) strive to make sure people are safe and don't think that people suffer consciouses when things go bad. All I'm saying is nobody and I MEAN nobody is perfect, if you are ,you do the job, lets see you go through  the door. P.I.G. Pride Integrity Guts! And that is the last I have to say on this matter.

Haz responded to this, but I need to weigh in here too. The police forces are not the military, never have been, and in this country God forbid they ever do. In recent decades, the police have been militarized to a great degree, but the military is and should be completely separate from the constabulary. Police are (supposed to view us as citizens with rights. The military views their opponents as "the enemy". Do you really suggest the police should view us civilians as "the enemy"?

Re' your comment "we (most of us) strive to make sure people are safe and don't think that people suffer consciouses when things go bad", first, remember Benjamin Franklin's comments on security and freedoms, and do you think for a moment that the cops who stole the weapons in NO during Nagin's illegal searches and illegal seizures suffer one pang of conscious when they go to the range and shoot off their "freebie" that they stole confiscated and, oh, by the way, just happened to forget it is in their car and forgot to turn it in to the impound?

No one is suggesting the police should be perfect, but that imperfection is exactly why the lazy, sloppy LEO work (like relying solely on an informant) that often leads to no-knock warrants get civilians killed, lots of them. Who gives a crap that the LEO feels bad? An innocent civilian is dead because of a no-knock warrant. The Hmong guy in Minneapolis is one lucky man, given the automatic firepower the he was facing with just a shotgun.

Haz, thanks for posting the map. I could not remember where I had seen it.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 23, 2007, 02:37:28 PM
Oh, I get it! Drug dealers good! Cops bad!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 23, 2007, 02:58:12 PM
Oh, I get it! Drug dealers good! Cops bad!

Stop being childish.  No one said that.  What I (and I think Pathfinder) am saying is NO ONE has the right to enter my house with out knocking.  You have a warrant?  Good, present it to me and the enter like police (servants of the People), not like home invaders.

Drugs are not a reason for no knocks.  I can think of a number of different and less dangerous ways.  Could the drugs get flushed?  Yep, and who cares about that? 
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 23, 2007, 03:43:05 PM
Stop being childish.  No one said that.  What I (and I think Pathfinder) am saying is NO ONE has the right to enter my house with out knocking.  You have a warrant?  Good, present it to me and the enter like police (servants of the People), not like home invaders.

Drugs are not a reason for no knocks.  I can think of a number of different and less dangerous ways.  Could the drugs get flushed?  Yep, and who cares about that? 
That's your view! Not law! As I said before I too beleive in the 4th A. There is nothing in the 4th A that say's you must knock to serve a legal warrant! Let me add one thing. Sloppy police work cannot be tolerated!! Bad warrants, bad information, and bad cops should be dealt with. I am not condoning any of these. These things are tools to be used, but must be used correctly.                   (As for being childish, my wife tells me that all the time.)
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 23, 2007, 04:26:27 PM
I acknowledged in a previous post that it was legal.  There are such things as bad laws.

Please explain to me how putting the police in danger, possibly putting innocent persons in the house in danger, putting neighbors in danger (possible stray rounds) etc. is better than oh...

Waiting until wanted person or persons leave and then arrest, or if it is so vital then spend the man power to survail and arrest or if even more urgent surround and contain.

All of those options are less dangerous to the public and the police and I didn't even mention wrong addresses or bad info which also ups the ante of public endangerment.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Pathfinder on December 23, 2007, 04:28:06 PM
That's your view! Not law! As I said before I too beleive in the 4th A. There is nothing in the 4th A that say's you must knock to serve a legal warrant! Let me add one thing. Sloppy police work cannot be tolerated!! Bad warrants, bad information, and bad cops should be dealt with. I am not condoning any of these. These things are tools to be used, but must be used correctly.

Haz, right on the money.

Ismram, I honestly do not know where to begin. The Law - well, there are good laws and bad ones. But since court case after court case has clearly demonstrated that the police are not obligated in any way, shape or form to intervene ever under the law, I wonder why the police choose, voluntarily to intervene in no-knock searches, especially as they do stretch the 4th Amendment even tho "legal" in some eyes.

As for not having to knock to serve a warrant, that is true if I am standing in public. If you want to come into my home, a home I work for, pay for, I pay the taxes on, I maintain - without government help, mind you - then you damn well better knock first and ask permission to enter. Especially if you're wearing a badge.

I hope you, as a LEO understand the basic premise behind that last paragraph.

In the interest of the season, I'm not going to go beyond that.

Everyone have a Merry Christmas, and remember that Christ is the reason for this season.
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: ismram on December 23, 2007, 05:26:11 PM
I acknowledged in a previous post that it was legal.  There are such things as bad laws.

Please explain to me how putting the police in danger, possibly putting innocent persons in the house in danger, putting neighbors in danger (possible stray rounds) etc. is better than oh...

Waiting until wanted person or persons leave and then arrest, or if it is so vital then spend the man power to survail and arrest or if even more urgent surround and contain.

All of those options are less dangerous to the public and the police and I didn't even mention wrong addresses or bad info which also ups the ante of public endangerment.
Small police dept's are going to put 20 officer's around a house for three days waiting for the bad guys to come out. When they could be solving other cases. As for Police in danger, try a (Quote) normal traffic stop! Putting innocent persons in danger BAD POLICE WORK! Wrong address BAD POLICE WORK! Bad info BAD POLICE WORK! Those cannot be tolerated!!! Yes, there are too many no knocks! But there are times when they are the think to do. I agree with you 100% that any raid on the wrong house is inexcusable. I would never argue that. That's my last post on this subject.             Merry Christmas to all!
Title: Re: Cops raid wrong house
Post by: Hazcat on December 23, 2007, 05:34:27 PM
Path, ismram,

Good discussion!

Peace to all and MERRY CHRISTMAS HO HO HO!!!!!

And here is a link to a Christmas song y'all might like http://blogs.tampabay.com/bizarre/2007/12/merry-hot-flori.html

SAFE FOR ALL AGES (just funny and kinda neat)