The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: ericire12 on January 19, 2010, 04:05:14 PM
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Yes, S&W enters the .380 wars
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/image_archive/2014590.jpg
(http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/image_archive/2014590.jpg)
(http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/popups/BGWeb/Untitled-2.jpg)
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&content=754501
The S&W Bodyguard 380 is a compact double action only 6-shot .380 Auto. Measured at ¾" thick, the little gun is hammer fired, has a second-strike capability and an Insight laser aimer installed inside the dustcover. The Bodyguard 380 was quite thin - very flat. The safety - it has a manual safety - is small, cannot be knocked "on" by accident. In fact, I never did get the safety on. The trigger is quite smooth and I found accuracy on par with the Bodyguard 38.
*Bane also talks about this on the video cast
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/?p=1402
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Now can they just make the ammo more available???????
A little cheaper wouldn't be too bad either........
Love my Kel-Tec... :-X
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Now can they just make the ammo more available???????
A little cheaper wouldn't be too bad either........
Love my Kel-Tec... :-X
Just picked up a boat load of personal defense ammo for my .32 Kel Tec...... Target ammo is easy to find as well :P
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I guess even though S&W picked up the Walther PPK/S .380 line, they wanted to get into the "mousegun" market.
Hoping the ammo market continues to settle down, before this admin "changes" something and we'll start all over again..... :-[
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Why would anyone release a 380 now? S&W is a little behind the curb. Then again this is the same company that refuses to accept the best thing they could do for the company is to take out "the lock".
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I think at this point S&W is just trying to keep in the game and take some market share from Ruger and Taurus. Their Semi autos don't have the lock except as an option. But just to show you may be right... look how long it took for S&W to catch up on the whole AR game.
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I think at this point S&W is just trying to keep in the game and take some market share from Ruger and Taurus. Their Semi autos don't have the lock except as an option. But just to show you may be right... look how long it took for S&W to catch up on the whole AR game.
Good point garand, another would be the M+P, the knee jerk reaction to the Glock by S&W was the Sigma, marginal at best when they first came out, and now a decent pistol, (still for right handers), BUT they got it right on the M+P line.
The S&W AR's are based on the the exact spec of the STAG line, and function as such. Good ammo + maint. they go bang every time.
Not sure if it was "catching up" , or just trying to get it right in the market. References could be made about a certain Ruger SR9 that was "rushed" to market only to realize it wasn't quite "there" yet....
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Damn, S&W made no effort to bribe to to buy one either! Damn!!
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I think that a lot of this investigation is going to be found to be trumped up. My gut feeling anyway. Yes, the SR9 was another great example of trying to cash in on polymer. But I think the M&P and the SR9 in the end will be seen as following the natural evolution of service pistols. Especially since S&W already made 1911s.
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Given the built in laser, will this gun be twice the price of their competitors ($450 vs $225)? If they can get the price down below what the other 380s plus lasers would cost, they might get sales.
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UPDATE: Retail price will be $575
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2010/01/19/shot-show-day-one-2/
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It's really not that over priced if you consider the cost of adding a Crimson Trace laser to an LCR/LCP. Gun = $275, Laser $200 and your still competitively priced.
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CT's are high. Demand is high, so their riding the Laser Highway in pricing.....Lasermax is doing the same thing.
$575 seems pretty steep, even if it "reality" sells for $450-475.....
No .380 should be over $400... But well,.....I got my Walther PPK/S for over $500 so,...what the market bears....
Still wouldn't spend the over $600 for a Kahr, or close to $1000 for a Rohrbaugh..even if I did win the Powerball...
Still waiting on ammo to catch up with all the "new" models
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If S&W had made a 9mmMak version, they'd sell a million of them... 8)
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Ya know, I'm surprised no American or western European companies have introduced anything in the tokarev or the makarov round. The ammo is pretty cheap by today's standards and the 9x18 is hotter than the 380, also easier to find.
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Ya know, I'm surprised no American or western European companies have introduced anything in the tokarev or the makarov round. The ammo is pretty cheap by today's standards and the 9x18 is hotter than the 380, also easier to find.
Ammo is great, from a ballistic standpoint and a cost point, but the gun manufacturers would really have a challenge taking the butt UGLYNESS out of a platform... ;)
Ask deepwater, or look at his avatar, shoots great, but it makes a "G" gun look "pretty" :P
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We've discussed the 7.62 X 25 on here if an American company came up with bullets more advanced than the soft point that could be a heck of a cartridge.
TW, Those are 2 things Glock's and Tok's have in common, ugly, but they go bang EVERY time you pull the trigger.
As for putting the caliber in better looking guns, It ain't nothing but a reamer.
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I'm surprised no one has come up with an aftermarket barrel for the Mak cartridge.
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We've discussed the 7.62 X 25 on here if an American company came up with bullets more advanced than the soft point that could be a heck of a cartridge.
Which I've also heard about .380acp, .410 shotgun and .30 carbine. Well, it's happened with the first two due to demand...
(still wondering why I can't load .308 bullets into 30 carbine brass)
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What gets me is why .380? A .32 for a mouse gun I get, and Kel Tec makes a good one. .380? The difference in size vs power seems to favor 9mm. I would rather carry a very slightly larger 9mm than a .380 any day of the week, and that's excluding ammo cost and availability. I have never once gone to the store and been unable to buy 9mm. It may not have been what I wanted, but I was at least able to get something.
FQ13
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There seems to be a differnence in size/weight between a Keltec 3AT and their PF9. The PF9 weighs 50% more and is 10% thicker than the P3AT. On the other hand, the P32 isn't much different in size than the P3AT. Are all three blowback?
P32
Calibers: 32 AUTO
Weight unloaded: 6.6 oz. 186g
Length: 5.1" 129mm
Height: 3.5" 89mm
Width: .75" 19mm
Barrel Length: 2.7" 68mm
Capacity: 7 + 1 rounds
P3AT
Calibers: .380 AUTO
Weight unloaded: 8.3 oz. 235g
Length: 5.2" 132mm
Height: 3.5" 89mm
Width: .77" 20mm
Barrel Length: 2.7" 68mm
Capacity: 6 + 1 rounds
PF9
Calibers: 9mm Luger 9x19mm
Weight unloaded: 12.7 oz. 360g
Length: 5.85" 149mm
Height: 4.3" 109mm
Width: .88" 22mm
Barrel Length: 3.1" 80mm
Capacity: 7 + 1
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Yeah, but the PF9 was not really built to "pocket pistol" dimensions..... Its more along the lines of a single stack sub-compact. They could have made it the exact same dimensions as the P380 and still made it 9x19. It would weigh a little more then the P3 but it would still work. Perhaps the mag & mag well would have to be a bit wider, but not much at all if any.
(http://www.mouseguns.com/quad.jpg)
(http://www.mouseguns.com/pf9rev/pf9q.jpg)
See also:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9437.0
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Yeah, but the PF9 was not really built to "pocket pistol" dimensions..... Its more along the lines of a single stack sub-compact. They could have made it the exact same dimensions as the P380 and still made it 9x19. It would weigh a little more then the P3 but it would still work. Perhaps the mag & mag well would have to be a bit wider, but not much at all if any.
Given that Keltec has made 2 9mm pistols, a single stack and a double stack(PF9 & PF11), why HAVEN'T they made a P3AT sized gun in 9mm? I just don't think you can, witnessed by the fact that one one has. Can you imagine how demanded it would be?
No one WANTS a .380, all would rather have a larger caliber, but it's a trade-off for the small size.
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Given that Keltec has made 2 9mm pistols, a single stack and a double stack(PF9 & PF11), why HAVEN'T they made a P3AT sized gun in 9mm? I just don't think you can, witnessed by the fact that one one has. Can you imagine how demanded it would be?
No one WANTS a .380, all would rather have a larger caliber, but it's a trade-off for the small size.
Its in the works:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9437.0
$600
7.1 oz
... And I completely agree with ya:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=9437.msg122302#msg122302
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Can you imagine how demanded it would be?
Can you imagine how much a gun like that would HURT to shoot?.... :o :'(
Sometimes smaller isn't better.... 8)
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The prob with 7.62 x25 is the length of the shell.
The OAL ~ 1.345". 45 acp and 10 mm is 1.25" 380 is just under a inch. standard 9x19 is ~ 1.15".
If it was just a little bit shorter...
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Can you imagine how much a gun like that would HURT to shoot?.... :o :'(
Sometimes smaller isn't better.... 8)
I once read about a snubbie revolver designed for anti grizzly bear use in Alaska. It was in a super major caliber (480 Alaskan?). They said it would rip the web of your hand when you shot it.
Just like a 9mm pocket gun, I assume you're not supposed to shot/practice with it a lot.
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Which I've also heard about .380acp, .410 shotgun and .30 carbine. Well, it's happened with the first two due to demand...
(still wondering why I can't load .308 bullets into 30 carbine brass)
Overload,
What the issue of your .30 carbine cases? Sizer too tight? I have no problems with my dies, .308 bullets and brass.
CD
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Given that Keltec has made 2 9mm pistols, a single stack and a double stack(PF9 & PF11), why HAVEN'T they made a P3AT sized gun in 9mm? I just don't think you can, witnessed by the fact that one one has. Can you imagine how demanded it would be?
No one WANTS a .380, all would rather have a larger caliber, but it's a trade-off for the small size.
Rohrbaugh makes a .380 and a 9mm in the same frame, both hold 6 rounds in the magazine. Granted, it's a 1K gun but it can be done.
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Overload,
What the issue of your .30 carbine cases? Sizer too tight? I have no problems with my dies, .308 bullets and brass.
CD
I was mentioning that I couldn't load .308 bullets (like those used in the 7.62x51mm rounds) in my .30 carbine brass. It would be like asking why I can't use 45/110 bullets in .45acp brass. Both bullets have the same diameter, but are radically different in shape. Even if I had room in the case to deep seat it won't work, mainly due to OAL of the loaded round.
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Rohrbaugh makes a .380 and a 9mm in the same frame, both hold 6 rounds in the magazine. Granted, it's a 1K gun but it can be done.
The Rohrbaugh is a steel gun, the Keltec is partually plastic. Still, since it can be done, why hasn't it been done on a larger scale?