The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: ericire12 on January 22, 2010, 10:30:59 AM
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http://pistol-training.com/archives/2436
Blockbuster announcement today made during the pistol-training.com/HK get together at HK’s booth this morning. HK has won a contract to provide HK45 Compact pistols to the U.S. Navy special operations community, replacing the SIG P226 for personnel in certain roles. Specifically, the model will be the HK45C-SD with threaded barrel and special sights for intended use as a suppressed weapon, taking the place of the now-discarded Mk23 “SOCOM” pistol.
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The foot is in the door? The nose is in the tent? For .45s for everybody else in the military eventually I mean? Some will dream so?
I've shot the G30, XD45C, M&P45C, USP45C, and HK45C. Liked 'em all.
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I guess it may happen again, albeit a slow bleed. If I'm correct I think the Air Force is still looking at the 45 and I know the Marines are still interested as they have expanded the issuing of the M45 in MARSOC but I really don't think we'll be changing out small arms in any large number for another generation at least. That is, unless DC and big Army change their minds.
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I wouldn't read too much into this. Most squids, myself, my brothers and general "Black Shoe" types can go an entire career without even having to qualify with a handgun and rarely are we REQUIRED to do so! I had to ask and was lucky enough to work with a Rifle/Pistol Instructor back in the day.
What the Spec Ops fellas use has always been a little off the path of the rest of the Navy. Beretta has the contract for 500K M9's at the moment. The Pentagon won't budge on that for the forseeable future.
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Don't forget the up to 14 _million_ more new M9 mags they contracted for even before the latest M9 contract. I agree, looks like the M9/M9A1 will be around a little longer than many had hoped.
Some have been trying hard to change: there was the SOF-CP (Special Operations Forces - Combat Pistol), then FHS (Future Handgun System), then JCP (Joint Combat Pistol), then CP and FHS again, then AFH (Air Force Handgun), then AFFH (Air Force Future Handgun), then MHS (Modular Handgun System)... all gone or going nowhere anytime soon.
I was issued the M15 (S&W .38 revolver), the M1911A1 (mine was a Remington), the M9 and M11 (SIG P228). Liked 'em all.
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I wouldn't read too much into this. Most squids, myself, my brothers and general "Black Shoe" types can go an entire career without even having to qualify with a handgun and rarely are we REQUIRED to do so! I had to ask and was lucky enough to work with a Rifle/Pistol Instructor back in the day.
What the Spec Ops fellas use has always been a little off the path of the rest of the Navy. Beretta has the contract for 500K M9's at the moment. The Pentagon won't budge on that for the forseeable future.
The two USNR officers I worked with (O-6,O-4) had never had any weapons training in their MOS (163).
We took the O-4 to the range before she left for Bahrain and ran her through the M-4, M-9 and M-11 so if she had to pick one up she would know how to get them running.
We worked on the O-6 so he went to some DTI courses and actually enjoyed them. He's come to the dark side. ;D
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Sounds familiar ratcatcher.....read OPNAVINST 3591.1E
It basically says unless your job REQUIRES you to carry a sidearm, you don't have to take the quals....
I have an aquaintence, recently retired, who's O-6 wife is currently in Pakistan. The Navy ran her through a course in order to familiarize her with basic function and such. Thirty years in the Navy and never handled a firearm and proabably never will aggain when she gets home.
She's up for Admiral too!
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When your RIFLES have a 16 inch bore, and your issue "Close combat" equipment is a Marine Battalion who the heck needs a pistol ?
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When your RIFLES have a 16 inch bore, and your issue "Close combat" equipment is a Marine Battalion who the heck needs a pistol ?
Tom, you know we don't got no mo' Battleships in commision........Big MO was the last I think!
But your point is well taken.......
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Also note that it only affects the SpecWar community so far. Straight MAs will continue with the M9, NCIS/Investigators will stay with the M11. Aircrew will be split. One squadron I was in had the Sigs and the one I just left had the Berettas. Of course the first was a TacAir unit so it had to fit in a vest and the other was a C-130 unit so there was room for the M9.
I can safely say that I have been qualified in one or both for well over half my career.
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HK made a SOCOM pistol available to the military years ago, I guess they finally got a big enough "fish/squids" to get the whole enchilada...
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The seals can basicly use what ever they want, a 45 packs alot more punch and sub sonic speeds then a 9x19 does.
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Is there any reason to switch... really? What about the whole load of crap about military contracts only going to companies that produce the product here in the US? Sig built an entire facility here to meet that requirement. What is HK going to do?
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Its only a supplemental weapon, like the SOCOM Mk 23. The main battle pistol is still the P226. Also, the HK 45 was designed predominantly by Larry Vickers and is being produced by the American branch of HK.
SEALS have also been known to use 357 revolvers as a sidearm on occasion, particularly missions that require prolonged time underwater.
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IIRC, NCIS has or is in the process of switching from the 9mm M11 to the SIG P229 in 40S&W.
There are plenty of holes in the Buy America Act to drive HKs, SIGs, Berettas, etc through. For contracting purposes, all their US operations are considered "American" companies.
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...replacing the SIG P226 for personnel in certain roles.
The title is a bit misleading. "..certain roles." speaks to mission specific needs. The article should not be interpreted to actually mean that the Navy dropped Sig.
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And here is where I wipe the Kool-aid from my lips and reccomend a Glock in .45. Monkey simple, cheap, proven in every PD world wide, and goes bang every time. Honestly, the average squid will never see combat. They'll be part of the the 3000 plus crew that keeps 200 aviators in the air. They should be be drilled on wrench work, not pistol marksmanship. (And no Tim, thats not a slam, just an aknowledgement that a carrier jet jockey ain't worth crap wtihout a carrier to land on).Someone has to take care of the boat and the planes. Still, the idea of a handgun is to be simple, reliable, and accurate enough to do the job inside of 25 yards. Idiot proofed in every way possible. This seems to describe Glock to a T. No one's first choice for anything, but good enough for everything. Just like a Reminton 870 or an AK, good enough for what it's for, and stone ax simple. Issue these in .45 and I see no problems.
FQ13
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Tom, you know we don't got no mo' Battleships in commision........Big MO was the last I think!
But your point is well taken.......
I did not know that. And I'd like to know the reasons...not that I disagree with it...I just want to understand the changing face of warfare?
Were they 'sitting ducks' for air and missile attacks? Was their mission better met by other resources? Too slow to respond?
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I did not know that. And I'd like to know the reasons...not that I disagree with it...I just want to understand the changing face of warfare?
Were they 'sitting ducks' for air and missile attacks? Was their mission better met by other resources? Too slow to respond?
They are nothing but a floating artillery platform. Anything a battleship can do, carrier launched aircraft and Tomahawk equiped destroyers can do, and from a longer range and with greater precision. The exception would seem to be softening up a landing beach.
FQ13
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They were to big and expensive, after the advent of the Air Craft Carrier the Battleships day was done.
Their only real purpose was to sink other battleships, and when the day of the "Fleet action" died so did their purpose.
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They were to big and expensive, after the advent of the Air Craft Carrier the Battleships day was done.
Their only real purpose was to sink other battleships, and when the day of the "Fleet action" died so did their purpose.
They were still using fuel oil for propulsion with four big steam turbines. It would cost 10's or millions to convert them to nuclear power like our carriers.
As Tom states, the Navy's job today is not what it was in 1944 when Big Mo' was commisioned. It's changed and the Navy is changing with it. During the 80's she was converted to carry 32 Tomahawks and Harpoons. One LA, Seawolf and Virginia class fast attack boat can carry plenty of Tomahawks and get in there undetected. A Cruiser can probably carry 32 Tomahawks as well.