The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: cjwise5 on January 22, 2010, 08:04:47 PM
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So we know that today's war on terrorism is really a religious war. They hate Christians and whether you consider yourself a christian or not, the muslim terrorists believe that the United States in a Christian nation. This being the case, has it been discussed that terrorists could target large church gatherings? The church I attend every sunday in the middle of Iowa in considered a mega church, which really just means that there are 3000 plus people who attend on any given weekend. Is this a large enough crowd to tempt a terror strike? I think so. I am constantly running through scenarios in my head while I'm sitting in church. Very rarely do churches have any kind of security measures. There may be greeters at the doors, but it's not likely that they are trained to look for suspicious persons/behaviors.
Whether you like this or not - I wear my gun to church, and I try to sit on the end of an isle. Help me think through this a bit... what are the options, tactics, strategies, etc. if a bad guy comes into the church waving a gun or worse, is wired with explosives.
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Seems like you are doing pretty much all you can, you are aware of the possibility, you are aware of your surroundings, and you are prepared to defend yourself and the rest of the congregation.
If the attacker is armed with explosives your screwed, all you can do is get your family and yourself down behind cover and hope God is merciful to you and them.
In the event that some one attacks the Congregation with fire arms, you need to understand and accept in your gut that nothing you do can make such an attack not happen, all you can do is minimize the damage the BG is able to inflict.
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Hello cjwise5, welcome to DRTV, in a "mega" church, 3000+/- folks,....let's run through some scenarios. There have been church shootings by non-muslims also. Disgruntled folks that want to go down in a blaze of gunfire, taking as many victims as they can and than commit suicide.
OK, if you have a shooter in a mega church, and your armed, the possibility is he may be on the second level, over 100 yds from your position. Hardly in pistol range, (standard carry handgun),.... even at 10- 25 yds, how many panicking folks will be scrambling all over the place, not a good time to take a shot either.
So, unless your Jack Bauer, and going to take the "I'm going to end this" in a mega church, (which will be used against you in court), the alternative is a good defense for you and your family.
Sitting by an exit is good. Getting out quickly is good. Not stopping while you call 911 is good.
However, if your in the middle of the "pack" with a better chance of being trampled than getting low at your seat, making quick looks to see where, how far, what's the BG's weapon,, etc,.. will dictate a different response.
Explosives aside, a crazed madman with an AK, 12g, AR, semi auto pistol and (25) 15 rd magazines, hell bent on shooting everyone, there will be a "space" created that will leave the BG vulnerable to a well placed shot. Most just simply "walk" around shooting. Find a defensive position, column of concrete, wall, threshold, and if you can;t escape, defend yourself.
This is a mega church, not a country church with 30-60 members. That would be a different set of circumstances. If a shooter is across the arena, or on a different level in a mega church? I'm getting my family OUT as a first option.
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Agreed. Exit stategies are the best strategies when in a large area like that. But keep in mind, terrorists are crazy, not stupid and may cover all exits. If you have to defend yourself, just be sure what chances you are taking at collateral damage.
Ive often wondered this as Southeast Christian Church here in Louisville has a Sanctuary that holds over 9,000 people and on Christmas or Easter probably fills to capacity. Imagine the death toll and the psychological impact of a terrorist strike on this building at teh wrong time.
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Perhaps you could speak to your church leaders about a plan where church members provided security.
This was the case when Jeanna Assam stopped a shooter at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs.
Many church officials are aware of the story and the effectiveness of her shooting.
Here is a link to a news report of her heroic action.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html
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The last two episodes of the Best Defense kind of gave you some of what you need for this scenario.
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9,000 people ? I bet that panic, trampling, heart attacks etc. would kill as many or more than the gun man .
I should have mentioned in my 1st post that the best defense is not to be there, get you and your family OUT, as the others mentioned, but I assume that with that many members in a panic that isn't going to happen, all doors will be mobbed by hundreds of basically insane animals all trying to get out at once, in the process creating an ideal target for the shooter.
Consider the option of busting a window and going out that way, otherwise find a position that not only gives some protection from bullets, but the greater danger of the crowd movement. (3,000 members 30 round mag in BG's gun = 1 round for every 100 members, where as the panic is the same as standing in front of a stampede )
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I would give anything (almost) if our church had 300 in attendance on Sunday! We wouldn't be able to hold 3000. Talking with your church leaders (as well as like minded individuals that you might know) is a great idea but in my church we still have the "plastic, invisible, get thru airport security undetected, cop killer bullet" thing in place. I carry without people knowing and would be harshly criticised if not kicked out for it! I would be very uncomfortable with 300 in the church because, even that number is a target for someone. I would always sit near an exit no matter what! I would also strongly consider CMA first...family included. I know that sounds bad but I can't help if I go down quick!
FWIW
Richard
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Paying attention is the best thing you can do.
Out side of that, I would say sit near a exit that is not used as a main entrance. For example most churchs have a emergency exits up front on both sides. I would try to sit near those.
If a crazy does go into a church to shoot people, chances are those near the entrance, and those near the people leading the survice are the ones that are going to get shot at 1st.
As was mentioned above, if some one has a bomb or other device( bio, radio active, chemical, etc) you are pretty much screwed.
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cjwise5
Welcome from a Fellow Eastside Iowan. Sounds as if you are doing alright for yourself. Have you approached your church about security? Would they be open to the idea? I have friends that attend a very large church over here and they have a security team in place and one of my friends that attends this particular church is the Investigator for the county that I use to work for. He has been very good about recruiting other officers that attend this church to help with the security. While it isn't going to stop a Bomb it is going to help with Active shooter situation.
PM me if you would like some more info on this church if you think it is something that your church would be interested in modeling after.
I know it is a taboo with churches and firearms but when you get that many people together in one spot on a weekly basis it is going to attract the wrong subject at some point.
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There is no right answer here. I wrestled with the carrying in chuch issue spiritually. I was against, and changed my mind. Now I do. However, in a large congregation, Tom is right. The largest danger is the panicked crowd, not whatever caused them to panic. Unless you can be the first out the door, don't go there. Find a place to hide, a confessional, the baptismal font, a small side chaple etc. There, you are safe from the crowd and in reasonable range if the BG does turn that corner. You'll be shooting at 20 feet, not 50 yards, which is what a carry gun (and just assuming here) your level of training is geared for. My advice is to ride it out if you have family. If not, then work your way to the BGs if you want, but understand if you can't make a shot reliably on the range, you sure won't under fire. Again, I really think that your fellow parishoners are the biggest threat odds wise in that scenario.
FQ13
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Thanks for all the great input guys. I think bad things could happen at any point in this church. We have already had some crazy guy come waltzing in and right up to the front of the stage during the service and start causing trouble. It is just as likely that he could have been carrying a gun. In the same way, the odds are against us that a terrorist attack could occur. I think i will talk to the leadership team about security concerns. It doesn't make any sense to me to just ignore this and hope nothing happens. As far as being prepared and good positioning goes... i just volunteered to run a video camera during the service, which puts me in the back and near most of the exits depending on which camera I'm on. We have a small handful of cops and active military guys in the crowd every week - perhaps I will see about getting all these guys to keep their eyes peeled each week.
This issue keeps me guessing because there really isn't a good tactical option. Someone here pointed it out accurately that the distance at which a pistol shot would have to be taken is unrealistic. Especially given the number of frantic people.
It might be a good idea for me to keep my long gun in the car on sundays and during an incident, perhaps there would be a chance for me to slip out undetected and get it. This only takes care of the distance issue - not the frantic people issue however. I find it hard to believe that a large group of "terrorists" would "takeover" the church, but that's a 50/50 gamble too. Anyway.. scary times.
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Thanks for all the great input guys. I think bad things could happen at any point in this church. We have already had some crazy guy come waltzing in and right up to the front of the stage during the service and start causing trouble. It is just as likely that he could have been carrying a gun. In the same way, the odds are against us that a terrorist attack could occur. I think i will talk to the leadership team about security concerns. It doesn't make any sense to me to just ignore this and hope nothing happens. As far as being prepared and good positioning goes... i just volunteered to run a video camera during the service, which puts me in the back and near most of the exits depending on which camera I'm on. We have a small handful of cops and active military guys in the crowd every week - perhaps I will see about getting all these guys to keep their eyes peeled each week.
This issue keeps me guessing because there really isn't a good tactical option. Someone here pointed it out accurately that the distance at which a pistol shot would have to be taken is unrealistic. Especially given the number of frantic people.
It might be a good idea for me to keep my long gun in the car on sundays and during an incident, perhaps there would be a chance for me to slip out undetected and get it. This only takes care of the distance issue - not the frantic people issue however. I find it hard to believe that a large group of "terrorists" would "takeover" the church, but that's a 50/50 gamble too. Anyway.. scary times.
Cj
In re getting a long gun out and re-entering: do understand that you just painted a big fat target on your butt. LEOs will have have been called by the time you get to your car, grab the rifle and re-enter. They will drop you like a bad habit, thinking you are a terrorist. Your job isn't to be the hero. Its to get your family to safety and let the pros do their job. This might sound cowardly, but its good advice. Don't put yourself in a position where both the BGs and the cops consider you a target. Just my .02
FQ13
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I agree with you except that I am an LEO and always carry my badge. Hopefully I would also be the one calling the police and could explain that I was there - giving them a description of myself. I think under any other circumstances I would not leave to go get a rifle and then re-enter. It's very difficult to armchair quarterback this problem for me because to be completely honest I am equally torn. One part of me wants to just run get my family and be out of there as quick as possible. The other part of me gets really pissed that bad guys would want to harm people I love and a place that is so much more than just a building to me.
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I kinda past over this topic for that past few days, but today turned out different.
I work at a church, and it puts a slightly different perspective on it. We may have some "stalker" around the premesis. I was asked to walk several ladies to their cars this afternoon.
So now I'm exploring my options as a GA CCW. Ga law explicitly prohibits carrying firearms, "to" or "at" churches and church functions. Which means technically, that IF I had a firearm in my car, I would be guilty of a violation. It also means that if my firearm is stolen from my car while in the church parking lot, I could not report it. I've got to explore more from a "employee" standpoint.
An interesting side consideration is the three "parsonages" we own on contiguous property. If those families posses firearms are they guilty of code violation?
Current GA legislature is trying to simplify the law, but I bet they haven't considered cases like mine.
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I kinda past over this topic for that past few days, but today turned out different.
I work at a church, and it puts a slightly different perspective on it. We may have some "stalker" around the premesis. I was asked to walk several ladies to their cars this afternoon.
So now I'm exploring my options as a GA CCW. Ga law explicitly prohibits carrying firearms, "to" or "at" churches and church functions. Which means technically, that IF I had a firearm in my car, I would be guilty of a violation. It also means that if my firearm is stolen from my car while in the church parking lot, I could not report it. I've got to explore more from a "employee" standpoint.
An interesting side consideration is the three "parsonages" we own on contiguous property. If those families posses firearms are they guilty of code violation?
Current GA legislature is trying to simplify the law, but I bet they haven't considered cases like mine.
Don't know Ga. law, but it would seem that being a security guard at say $1 per year would cover you. My stepdad used to pay me that when he needed me to look up old common law stuff for one of his cases. Just the exchange of money meant that attorney client privelge applied and I couldn't be deposed. Assuming a security guard doesn't mean a special licence, a token payment from the priest should cover you.
FQ13
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I kinda past over this topic for that past few days, but today turned out different.
I work at a church, and it puts a slightly different perspective on it. We may have some "stalker" around the premesis. I was asked to walk several ladies to their cars this afternoon.
So now I'm exploring my options as a GA CCW. Ga law explicitly prohibits carrying firearms, "to" or "at" churches and church functions. Which means technically, that IF I had a firearm in my car, I would be guilty of a violation. It also means that if my firearm is stolen from my car while in the church parking lot, I could not report it. I've got to explore more from a "employee" standpoint.
An interesting side consideration is the three "parsonages" we own on contiguous property. If those families posses firearms are they guilty of code violation?
Current GA legislature is trying to simplify the law, but I bet they haven't considered cases like mine.
Ohio has a similar law about carrying in a religious facility. But, from what I have found here because churches are still private property I can still carry as long as I have permission from someone in authority to grant me such. In this case my Dad counts since he is the Senior Pastor. It's treated just like a private residence. If I go in your house I can't legally carry without your permission. So as long as you say it's cool we're good. I always carry when I'm at the church as many times I'm there alone and we have had transients decide to take up temporary residence and not want to leave. It's added insurance that if a situation deteriorates badly I still have a force multiplier.
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Don't know Ga. law, but it would seem that being a security guard at say $1 per year would cover you. My stepdad used to pay me that when he needed me to look up old common law stuff for one of his cases. Just the exchange of money meant that attorney client privelge applied and I couldn't be deposed. Assuming a security guard doesn't mean a special licence, a token payment from the priest should cover you.
FQ13
that would also open the chruch up to all kinds of liabilty.
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that would also open the chruch up to all kinds of liabilty.
That goes without saying, but you have to assume that their insurance (like any business insurance) covers liabiity from security. I mean hell, they don't pay taxes, they should be able to pony up for a decent liability policy.
FQ13
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most churchs I know are just "making it". donations are way down. Then there are churchs that make you pay to attend ::) lets just say I don't hink very highly of them.
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I am exploring the "permission" thing, however, I'm not related to any of the management and I'm "just" an employee. I am not a member of the congregation.
I need to broach this quickly due to the immediate potential threat, but I need to be careful that any request I make isn't turned down immediately for the liability issue.
Am a little blurry eyed this morning, having spent some time reading GA code last night.
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If you are interested in a program to refer church leadership to, here is a link from my county in TN:
http://www.bradleysheriff.com/content/view/29/56/
Scroll to the bottom of the page to the Special Deputy Church Protection Program. I am attending a church in an adjacent county currently but my former church had one full-time staff member and one of our retirees, with an LEO background, take the certification. There were also several other church members that are HCP carriers that were encouraged to carry. My only problem with the program is that like everyone that takes the responsibility to carry, they should have much more training than what it takes to pass a typical "qualification" test.
Who is standing behind you right now???
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The ones you should be watching for is the BATF.
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Alf
You are getting amateur advice from the peanut gallery (its what we do ;D). My serious advice is to have your priest pick up the phone and call the local PD chief (not Deputy Fife) and explain the situation and ask what you and others can legaly do. He's the one who will be making the call as to prosecute or not if things go pear shaped so best just get it out in the open before anything gets weird.
FQ13
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Alf
You are getting amateur advice from the peanut gallery (its what we do ;D). My serious advice is to have your priest pick up the phone and call the local PD chief (not Deputy Fife) and explain the situation and ask what you and others can legaly do. He's the one who will be making the call as to prosecute or not if things go pear shaped so best just get it out in the open before anything gets weird.
FQ13
Lawyer, not Police chief.
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So I followed up with my pastor at church on this. I told him that I would like to meet and discuss some security concerns with him. He was very willing to meet and is excited to hear what I have to say. I'll update this thread after meeting with him, and let you all know what happens.
I plan on pointing out that the church has very little exterior lighting around entrances and no security cameras of any kind. I will also mention that none of the staff has been trained in threat recognition, not to mention dealing with bad guys through verbal means or hands on methods. I would venture to guess that they don't really know the laws of use of force in these situations or what they are legally allowed to do and say.
Any other help and advice as I prepare a proposal would be appreciated.
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So I followed up with my pastor at church on this. I told him that I would like to meet and discuss some security concerns with him. He was very willing to meet and is excited to hear what I have to say. I'll update this thread after meeting with him, and let you all know what happens.
I plan on pointing out that the church has very little exterior lighting around entrances and no security cameras of any kind. I will also mention that none of the staff has been trained in threat recognition, not to mention dealing with bad guys through verbal means or hands on methods. I would venture to guess that they don't really know the laws of use of force in these situations or what they are legally allowed to do and say.
Any other help and advice as I prepare a proposal would be appreciated.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Its about training, and not just for worst case stuff either. It's far more likey you'll be dealing with some crazy wino. It's about detecting a threat and de-escalating it before guns even become an issue. Given that this is a church you will (or should be anyway) welcoming to that crazy wino. Welcoming does not mean stupid however, and having security trained to deal with escalating levels of threats is like money well spent for a prosperous chuch. If evey member of that 3,000 strong congregation put an extra $5 in the plate to train a voluteer security team you would have $15k which would certainley get Pincus or any other pro's undivided attention.
FQ13
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SHOT Distracted me from jumping in earlier. Here are a few thoughts:
-Churches are targets for violence, we know this. Most people there are perceived as being perfect targets at peace and unarmed.
-most attacks against churches in recent times come from congregation members, former congregation members or member's families.
-Several churches have professional security, of course, they are larger ones, often with "celebrity" preachers.
-Many Churches have volunteer "security ministries" that provide security services (or a semblance thereof).
I do church specific security training from time to time, item # 2 is the hardest part for most serious non-professionals to deal with. Keep it in mind, when you form a security plan, especially if it involves firearms. The most likely person you will need to shoot is someone who looks like you. Think about Roeder. His is a home grown religious terrorist who shot a member of the congregation during services (his trial just started this week and he's in the news again). If there had been professional armed security on site, those guys would've needed to act without hesitation.
As FQ just said, training is the key for all of the scenarios.
(for the record, I prefer to do such training for the volunteer groups on the cheap or as a donation while I am in town doing another, profitable, course).
-RJP
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I attend a "megachurch" of about 5-6,000, and we have off-duty, uniformed LEOs (usually 2-3 in uniform). We also have some plain clothes off-duty, and retired LEOs as well. I would think that any church that size would. That doesn't include any CCW holders that may be carrying since it is legal where I live. Explosives are another issue altogether, but amid the chaos of someone walking in shooting, my biggest concern would be of people not knowing who is who. I think if I went after the shooter, there would be a very good chance of someone thinking I am the bad guy. End of life.
I think I would certainly take a back seat to the uniformed LEOs, and only draw my firearm if the shooter were coming at me or my family, or I was in the best position to take a shot (like standing behind or beside the guy when he starts shooting--even then there is the risk of appearing as an accomplice).
I know this may sound a little cowardly/selfish and won't earn me the title Rambo, by my firearm is for PERSONAL defense--me or my family/friends. I am not paid, trained, protected, or identified to provide security for the church or any place else I am at. My family comes first and that includes making sure I am around to continue to be there for them.
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I attend a "megachurch" of about 5-6,000, and we have off-duty, uniformed LEOs (usually 2-3 in uniform). We also have some plain clothes off-duty, and retired LEOs as well. I would think that any church that size would. That doesn't include any CCW holders that may be carrying since it is legal where I live. Explosives are another issue altogether, but amid the chaos of someone walking in shooting, my biggest concern would be of people not knowing who is who. I think if I went after the shooter, there would be a very good chance of someone thinking I am the bad guy. End of life.
I think I would certainly take a back seat to the uniformed LEOs, and only draw my firearm if the shooter were coming at me or my family, or I was in the best position to take a shot (like standing behind or beside the guy when he starts shooting--even then there is the risk of appearing as an accomplice).
I know this may sound a little cowardly/selfish and won't earn me the title Rambo, by my firearm is for PERSONAL defense--me or my family/friends. I am not paid, trained, protected, or identified to provide security for the church or any place else I am at. My family comes first and that includes making sure I am around to continue to be there for them.
Amen.
FQ13
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I know this may sound a little cowardly/selfish and won't earn me the title Rambo, by my firearm is for PERSONAL defense--me or my family/friends. I am not paid, trained, protected, or identified to provide security for the church or any place else I am at. My family comes first and that includes making sure I am around to continue to be there for them.
No cowardice at all, Red, that is your first duty. If everyone took the time to prepare to defend their family as you have, the need for additional protection would be greatly reduced.
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No cowardice at all, Red, that is your first duty. If everyone took the time to prepare to defend their family as you have, the need for additional protection would be greatly reduced.
+10
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No cowardice at all, Red, that is your first duty. If everyone took the time to prepare to defend their family as you have, the need for additional protection would be greatly reduced.
+10
Add another +10...
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My cousins church has a security staff. Theyre located in Downtown Charleston WV and has a congregation of over 2K. They have a couple of cops leading the security staff and takes the civilians out for a rudimentary training course.
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(for the record, I prefer to do such training for the volunteer groups on the cheap or as a donation while I am in town doing another, profitable, course).
-RJP
Rob, I'm going to take you up on this when you come out to Iowa for the Waterloo guys. :)
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So.. I said I would give an update after meeting with my pastor about security concerns. The short of it is that they realized our church has become a soft target, they were concerned about all the threats that could pose a problem when that many people gather in one place, and I am now volunteering to design, organize, and implement a security plan and lead a team at our church. We will be the eyes and ears and sometimes the hands and feet (maybe the teeth if things go really south) of the church. I plan to hand pick the team from among our police officers, fire fighters, military and ems people. We will train in everything from heart attacks to natural disasters to missing kids to active shooters. Anyone with experience in designing or implementing these kinds of plans, please send me a message. I would love to get your opinions and advice.
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So.. I said I would give an update after meeting with my pastor about security concerns. The short of it is that they realized our church has become a soft target, they were concerned about all the threats that could pose a problem when that many people gather in one place, and I am now volunteering to design, organize, and implement a security plan and lead a team at our church. We will be the eyes and ears and sometimes the hands and feet (maybe the teeth if things go really south) of the church. I plan to hand pick the team from among our police officers, fire fighters, military and ems people. We will train in everything from heart attacks to natural disasters to missing kids to active shooters. Anyone with experience in designing or implementing these kinds of plans, please send me a message. I would love to get your opinions and advice.
Ya done good CJ, very good.
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So.. I said I would give an update after meeting with my pastor about security concerns. The short of it is that they realized our church has become a soft target, they were concerned about all the threats that could pose a problem when that many people gather in one place, and I am now volunteering to design, organize, and implement a security plan and lead a team at our church. We will be the eyes and ears and sometimes the hands and feet (maybe the teeth if things go really south) of the church. I plan to hand pick the team from among our police officers, fire fighters, military and ems people. We will train in everything from heart attacks to natural disasters to missing kids to active shooters. Anyone with experience in designing or implementing these kinds of plans, please send me a message. I would love to get your opinions and advice.
My Old Man is doing this for his suburban, but isolated neighborhood outside of Naples (picture a smallish upper middle class deveopment surrounded by by the Everglades National Park with 20 miles of swamp in either direction). He has worked with the Red Cross to set up a CERT (community emergengy response team). Their last excersize was in using shovels, axes, chain saws, come-alongs and wheel barrows without hurting yourself. (sounds basic, but when the median age is 70 and the daily temp is 85, its worth worth teaching). Point is, he's gotten a lot of support from Red Cross, the county fire and rescue crews, the NP rangers, and basically anyone with a badge who wants to help folks who are trying to make their jobs easier. I would definately call Red Cross for CPR etc and your local PD/SO for security training. I was also serious about that $5 special collection. Get the money and hire someone who is not a Rambo, but will spend most of their time teaching you to de-escalate a situation. The pistol should be ALMOST an afterthought, because you will have been shown ten ways not to need it. Just my.02.
FQ13
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Good for you CJl, Every community needs more people to step up when they see a need as you have done.
I may disagree with you on some things, (Don't know of any yet but there will probably be SOMETHING ;D )
But after only 15 posts you show yourself to be one of the "Good guys ".
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So we know that today's war on terrorism is really a religious war. They hate Christians and whether you consider yourself a christian or not, the muslim terrorists believe that the United States in a Christian nation. ..........
First practical defense for a morning or evening service is in the foyer, before crazies get into the worship center. Our ushers are aware, armed and vigilant.... and many of our members carry concealed. We have the ailes cleared for fire with armed individuals sitting at the end of the aisles. We will be training our congregation shortly, mostly code words and instructions if they hear such...to instruct them to go to ground and stay down. We will soon schedule some onsite and offsite training with USSA as they have what they call a "Deacon's Program" that they have trained some local Tulsa mega-churches in.
The plan needs to include all the times that the property is occupied and offices, kitchens etc.; not just Sunday morning services in the main auditorium. Professional onsite review and training will be the most beneficial first step.
The old Circuit Preachers used to pack...seems like those days have returned.
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My GrandPappy was a 'Pistol Packin' Preacher'.
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My great-grandfather was too.
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Good for you CJl, Every community needs more people to step up when they see a need as you have done.
I may disagree with you on some things, (Don't know of any yet but there will probably be SOMETHING ;D )
But after only 15 posts you show yourself to be one of the "Good guys ".
Thanks man. :)
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If memory serves me correctly, much of the damage from the bad guy was inflicted in the parking lot before the BG even got inside the church.
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If memory serves me correctly, much of the damage from the bad guy was inflicted in the parking lot before the BG even got inside the church.
If you are referring to the incident where Jeanne Assam stopped the shooter at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, you are correct.
At that location, he was only able to shoot innocents outside in the parking lot. Once inside, he was so overwhelming engaged by Assam that he turned his weapon upon himself rather than try to take her, even thought he had her "out gunned".
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I am the Team Leader of our Church Safety Team, called that for a reason, not Security Team. I am an Usher and we have this as a subdivision of the the Usher Staff. Not all our ushers are in the Safety Team. It is more PC to have it called a Safety Team which we do deal with other safety concerns.
My pastor knew I trained LE in Martial Arts more specifically for LE I use the I.S.R. Matrix by Luis Gutierrez and knows I work with them on shooting as well. I knew many on the board would not see the need for armed security so I asked one of my students a LEO that teaches school, church, business and home security to give us a reality check. He circled the church 4 times in a bright red truck had 2 longs guns in plain view had our church layout on the dash along with a back pack and other nefarious items. He parked the truck in plain view got out with a full size 1911 bulging from his left pocket plus a fanny pack. He then walked in and was greeted by the ushers and even the head usher and neither one knew him, he then went downstairs talked to two young children walked in our utility room. Walked back up stairs on the opposite side and went behind the baptismal & choir area. He went back down and outside and walked around the church twice and then came back in all the while no one asked him anything or thought his behavior was odd. I told him that Sunday I would be isolated in the Nursery. He then asked the head usher for me and told me how bad it was. I knew this but we needed a reality check. When he and I went before the pastor and the board with the info you could see there attitudes change in an instant. The LEO said our small town could have had a very bad Sunday had I been a psycho. Our pastor said I am so proud you are not a psycho. Every board member was 100% behind having a Safety Team. One thing I wanted to point out to them was it is not just protection from a shooter but a child molester, kidnapper or a hostage situation. Also, it is much more likely that if we need to act it would be for an unruly or crazed person that would be unarmed and would need to be escorted out. That has happen before at our church.
We know have our team in place and have a monthly training and extra weekend training. In our training the biggest problem with a shooter is getting our team to where they need to be during the chaos and being able to take a shot in the chaos with people running every which way. We do lots of scenario training and this is not easy. This might seem extreme but in the sound loft, BTW all the Sound Room guys are on the team, we keep a Wilson's UT-15 TACTICAL CARBINE with laser and aim point. If there is a shooter in the sanctuary it would be much better for them to take the shot with the carbine than with one of our team members in the midst of the crowd with a pistol we have found. The margin of error is not much and we only use frangible ammo in the carbine.
We are a church of @ 300 so not that big, but in our size town pretty big. We have 10 team members. They all are wonderful, I could not ask for a better group of guys. They all love to train and are dedicated to protecting our flock. When the members were asking why the extra people were milling around and in the parking lot we just said we had a safety audit and were training to improve on it and make sure no cars are broken into or any people that shouldn't be around the kids are not and to make sure people can get out safely in case of an emergency. We are also going to have the pastor speak to the congregation about various safety concerns and what they should do in the event of a tornado, fire, power outage and to not scare the folks too much but in the case someone starts shooting we need to do x,y and z.
Many churches do not see the need for armed security or think it is wrong to be in a church. I think that is nuts. We will see more and more attacks on churches and as mentioned earlier we will see Islamic Terrorist attacks on Christians. Before each meeting we pray for safety. We do know we have became a much harder target.
Sorry for such a long post.
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From ms1212
We are also going to have the pastor speak to the congregation about various safety concerns and what they should do in the event of a tornado, fire, power outage and to not scare the folks too much but in the case someone starts shooting we need to do x,y and z.
Many churches do not see the need for armed security or think it is wrong to be in a church. I think that is nuts. We will see more and more attacks on churches and as mentioned earlier we will see Islamic Terrorist attacks on Christians. Before each meeting we pray for safety. We do know we have became a much harder target.
Sorry for such a long post.
Some comments on your post.
First, No need to apologize for a long post when it makes for interesting reading.
Having the Pastor talk to the Congregation seems like a great idea for 2 reasons, first off every one is in the loop if some type of emergency should occur, you don't wind up with 10 people trying to handle the situation, (Medical or Meteorological as well as Maniac ) while 290 others run around like headless chickens. Everyone will know there is a plan in place, I don't know exactly what it is, and have no active part in it, so I will just get the heck out of the way of the people who DO.
Secondly, Every Church has Fire extinguishers, Every member of the Congregation has a spare tire (if they drive ) It is foolish to not prepare for other possibilities as well.
And to those who say defensive fire arms have no place in a house of worship I will point out that the crenelations around the roof line of Catholic Churches may simply be a design feature today, but originally they were meant as fighting positions for archers defending the Sanctuary.
Also in the Colonial period men were required to bring their rifles to church since that was where the they were checked for militia duty . (Not to mention that up here any way, we still had an Indian problem that could make the journey to church quite dangerous )
But then, there are still people who believe the earth is flat ::)
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Some comments on your post.
First, No need to apologize for a long post when it makes for interesting reading.
Having the Pastor talk to the Congregation seems like a great idea for 2 reasons, first off every one is in the loop if some type of emergency should occur, you don't wind up with 10 people trying to handle the situation, (Medical or Meteorological as well as Maniac ) while 290 others run around like headless chickens. Everyone will know there is a plan in place, I don't know exactly what it is, and have no active part in it, so I will just get the heck out of the way of the people who DO.
Secondly, Every Church has Fire extinguishers, Every member of the Congregation has a spare tire (if they drive ) It is foolish to not prepare for other possibilities as well.
And to those who say defensive fire arms have no place in a house of worship I will point out that the crenelations around the roof line of Catholic Churches may simply be a design feature today, but originally they were meant as fighting positions for archers defending the Sanctuary.
Also in the Colonial period men were required to bring their rifles to church since that was where the they were checked for militia duty . (Not to mention that up here any way, we still had an Indian problem that could make the journey to church quite dangerous )
But then, there are still people who believe the earth is flat ::)
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Thanks for that. We had many long discussions on how to impart the needed info to the congregation without causing too much alarm or letting everyone know we have armed security. You are exactly right we had lots of concern with people that were not in the safety team that may try to "help" and cause more harm than good. Some other concerns is if in the basement we have an active shooter and our assigned team makes entry to the basement we have to secure the entry/exit points to the basement by our team members assigned to each point to not only keep the shooter from coming up, but keeping church members from going down to get there kids. That could be a nightmare. Also, we have to keep control of the members exiting in an orderly way and kept them out of the way of the responding LEO. The congregation knows we have team members with the youth at all times.
That is so true of the crenellation and the Colonial period. How soon we forget.
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Very good post, MS1212.
Give a good view of what needs to be done and some of the problems that will be encountered.
It would seem that one of the recent or next church shootings might be a good way to introduce that aspect of your Team's responsibility to the congregation....maybe that you are considering how to incorporate that type of threat into your plan...
In any case, it is very good work you are doing and it sounds like you have found some true Sheep Dogs there.
Good luck and take care.
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Very good post, MS1212.
Give a good view of what needs to be done and some of the problems that will be encountered.
It would seem that one of the recent or next church shootings might be a good way to introduce that aspect of your Team's responsibility to the congregation....maybe that you are considering how to incorporate that type of threat into your plan...
In any case, it is very good work you are doing and it sounds like you have found some true Sheep Dogs there.
Good luck and take care.
That is one thing we try to do is get the police reports on church violence and other events that would be similar and then we scenario train it as closely as we can in our "lab". I also, and this could seem morbid, e-mail them any shooting incident info that is current or relative to our situation. You have a fine line that you want each member to be at...you do not ever want the "I can't wait to get to plug someone today!!!" or the "I didn't feel like wearing my gun today because it is uncomfortable and besides we have done this forever and I have never needed it before." I have the best team members I ever could have wished for that all have super personalities and great skills. I have known all of them well for over 15+ years. However, you want them to be aware that though unlikely we have to prepare as if it will happen today.
Thanks for the comments and I appreciate any suggestions that any one may have it could help us all in the future.