The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Fatman on January 23, 2010, 04:03:21 PM
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(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100123/capt.158ee41181ed40ec8f8a7d6d3a75081a.correction_marine_proper_burial_vakw103.jpg?x=213&y=167&xc=1&yc=1&wc=409&hc=321&q=85&sig=3KQSi8H7RePFLCv2v_Q4_Q--)
Homeless veteran who saved 5 in fire laid to rest
By BRETT ZONGKER, Associated Press Writer Brett Zongker, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 26 mins ago
ARLINGTON, Va. – Ray Vivier had been an adventurer, a Marine veteran who explored the country from South Carolina to Alaska, the father of five children.
The 61-year-old also was a man starting to get his life back together after living for years in a shanty beneath a Cleveland bridge. He had struggled with alcoholism, but by November he had a welding job, friends and a place to stay at a boarding house.
He rescued five people from that house when arsonists set it ablaze — but Vivier couldn't save himself. He and three others died, and two people have been charged in their deaths. Vivier's body, unclaimed and unidentified for weeks, seemed destined for an anonymous, modest burial.
However, Jody Fesco — who met Vivier while she was volunteering at a soup kitchen and had even invited him to her wedding — heard that Vivier may have died. Fesco and her husband contacted their friend Haraz Ghanbari, an Associated Press photographer, about the situation. Ghanbari took the lead to make sure Vivier wasn't forgotten, tracking down the family members and arranging a proper funeral.
On Friday, Vivier's ashes were inurned at Arlington National Cemetery with full military honors.
"You can see from what he did that he definitely had a good heart," said Mercedes Cruz, Vivier's ex-wife of 23 years, who attended the funeral with the couple's children. "No matter what our difficulties were in our marriage, I'm very proud of what's happened."
For his grown children — who now are scattered around the country — Vivier had been gone for about 15 years. They know of his heroism now — but they don't know much about the man he was trying to become. They remember their dad's struggles with alcohol and other troubles.
"What I'm trying to get out of this is to have one good, concrete memory that I can have of him for what he did to save those people," said his oldest daughter, Elisha Vivier. "I'm proud of the man that he was becoming."
Vivier was a private in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1965 and 1966, though he didn't see combat. He was stationed at Parris Island, S.C., Cruz said.
After his discharge, Vivier spent years working as a machinist, welder, iron worker and other tough jobs. He loved the outdoors and moved his family from Alaska to Oregon.
"He was just adventurous," Cruz said. "He loved to see different places and see what it was like to live there."
When he was homeless in Cleveland, he was proud to have one of the best shanties around, said Fesco, 29, who met Vivier at a soup kitchen.
"We hit if off right away," she said.
She took Vivier home for Christmas one year and later invited him to her wedding. Vivier was genuine, she said, "a real gentle spirit.
"He was trying to get himself out of some struggles — some struggles with alcohol — and just do better for himself, and he was, which was fantastic," Fesco said.
Ghanbari, who is an ensign in the U.S. Navy, helped arrange for Vivier's remains to be placed in a columbarium wall at Arlington National Cemetery. The site overlooks the Pentagon with the National Cathedral and Washington Monument in the distance.
At the military service, seven Marines fired three rifle shots, and a bugler played taps. Elisha Vivier carried a gold urn with her father's ashes to the wall and placed them inside, alongside the remains of thousands of veterans.
Ray Vivier was quiet, friends said, but people knew who he was. Cleveland City Councilman Joe Cimperman met Vivier years ago while working as a social worker. He said Vivier was quiet, yet kind and compassionate. More than 125 people attended a memorial service weeks after the fire in Cleveland.
"It was a huge blow for the community. This was one of our neighbors who people cared about and knew," Cimperman said. "We're less because he's gone."
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Semper fi, Marine, semper fi.
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Thank you for posting this fatman,
Sometimes there are no words..except I hope he has found peace.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/US-Flag-capitol-half-staff-737281.jpg)
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God speed.
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Nice story and I hate to be the A hole here but,
Vivier was a private in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1965 and 1966, though he didn't see combat. He was stationed at Parris Island, S.C.
This guy's only duty was as a recruit. He either didn't make it through boot camp, or deserted afterward.
I would ASSUME the Ensign checked the records, but from the info in the story this guy does not deserve to be buried in Arlington , and if he did not finish boot camp he is not entitled to the title of Marine.
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Nice story and I hate to be the A hole here but,
Vivier was a private in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1965 and 1966, though he didn't see combat. He was stationed at Parris Island, S.C.
This guy's only duty was as a recruit. He either didn't make it through boot camp, or deserted afterward.
I would ASSUME the Ensign checked the records, but from the info in the story this guy does not deserve to be buried in Arlington , and if he did not finish boot camp he is not entitled to the title of Marine.
I would agree with that. Based on the info in the article I'm sure there is more to the story. Don't you have to at least pass boot camp to become a Private?
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Yes, before you graduate boot camp you are paid as an E-1 but your actual "rank" is recruit.
You aren't a Marine until you finish boot camp.
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Nice story and I hate to be the A hole here but,
Vivier was a private in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1965 and 1966, though he didn't see combat. He was stationed at Parris Island, S.C.
This guy's only duty was as a recruit. He either didn't make it through boot camp, or deserted afterward.
I would ASSUME the Ensign checked the records, but from the info in the story this guy does not deserve to be buried in Arlington , and if he did not finish boot camp he is not entitled to the title of Marine.
Perhaps he was injured in boot camp and honorably discharged do to the injuries. Not saying this happened, but it is a possibility.
Also, it seem unlikely he would be buried in Arlington if he did not deserve it, no matter who was pushing for it.
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Possible, don't know, not enough info in the article.
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Hello to all;
Keep in mind the time frame 1965-66. This could have been a COMPLETE 2 yr stint in the Corps. Also keep in mind that there are people who graduate and are assigned to stay at their repected MCRD. He having been from Alaska originally could have been in Boot Camp at MCRD San Diego and his first and only duty station could have been Parris Island, There are many who fit this possibility. There was also a program to allow people to get out prior to serving thier required 2 yr minimum tour.
Back in "the good old day's" rank was hard to get and harder to keep. Promotion is/was not an automatic thing. 1 O'chit wiped out many "atta boy's".
He also would have not recieved a Military Funeral anywhere had his service not been under Honorable conditions.
The buildup in Vietnam was not as high then as it was in later years and he may have been "short" in time to have been deployed/ordered to Vietnam.
Also, there was a program called "Project T" or transition from active duty service to civilian life back then, this was a project to allow "short timers" to go and work in/for local civilian companies in an effort to allow Military Personnel the ability to get a job in the "real world" after Military separation.
Also keep in mind George C. Scott was a Marine whose only duty station was at Arlington National Cemetery and he dived into heavy drinking because of all the pain he witnessed at all those funerals he had to participate in.
It makes no difference for some people Combat or not, it is the expierence(s) thrust upon them that affects them. A lot of Vet's have those unseen scars within. Some people/Vet's just cannot shake away the military life/style regardless of time served.
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Hello to all;
Keep in mind the time frame 1965-66. This could have been a COMPLETE 2 yr stint in the Corps. Also keep in mind that there are people who graduate and are assigned to stay at their repected MCRD. He having been from Alaska originally could have been in Boot Camp at MCRD San Diego and his first and only duty station could have been Parris Island, There are many who fit this possibility. There was also a program to allow people to get out prior to serving thier required 2 yr minimum tour.
Back in "the good old day's" rank was hard to get and harder to keep. Promotion is/was not an automatic thing. 1 O'chit wiped out many "atta boy's".
He also would have not recieved a Military Funeral anywhere had his service not been under Honorable conditions.
The buildup in Vietnam was not as high then as it was in later years and he may have been "short" in time to have been deployed/ordered to Vietnam.
Also, there was a program called "Project T" or transition from active duty service to civilian life back then, this was a project to allow "short timers" to go and work in/for local civilian companies in an effort to allow Military Personnel the ability to get a job in the "real world" after Military separation.
Also keep in mind George C. Scott was a Marine whose only duty station was at Arlington National Cemetery and he dived into heavy drinking because of all the pain he witnessed at all those funerals he had to participate in.
It makes no difference for some people Combat or not, it is the expierence(s) thrust upon them that affects them. A lot of Vet's have those unseen scars within. Some people/Vet's just cannot shake away the military life/style regardless of time served.
I thought about this. 1965-1966 could mean two months or two years depending on dates.
But, back then an enlistment was 3 years minimum and a draft was 2 years. I don't think the Marines were drafting back then, if ever. So being less than 3 years seems to show it was cut short.
And yes, rank did not come automatically. Completing boot camp, which for the Army back them was 2 months plus 2 months additional MOS training did not get you E2. In the army you got no stripe till E3 for Private First Class. I believe the marines got a stripe at E2. E1 and E2 in the Army were both Privates.
So depending upon the terminology by the author of the piece, he could have been E1 to E3.
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The article says, Private DURING 65 and 66 not "Through" and since the Marines WERE NOT taking draftee's that early his enlistment was cut short, Being from Alaska is not THAT relevant to where he went to boot camp, I'm from NH and was given the option of San Diego but CHOSE PI, The Rank structure in the Marines then as now, was Private = E-1 PFC = E-2 and Lance Corporal = E-3 . The ranks of Lance Corporal and Gunnery Sergeant had been done away with for a time but were brought back after the Korean War.
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Given the nature of his post-stint jobs and subsequent substance abuse problems, he may also have been viewed as someone maybe not in the Corps best interests, and they let him walk with an honorable.
Just guessing here, as are we all.
Can anyone suggest a way to obtain his official record?
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Given the nature of his post-stint jobs and subsequent substance abuse problems, he may also have been viewed as someone maybe not in the Corps best interests, and they let him walk with an honorable.
Just guessing here, as are we all.
Can anyone suggest a way to obtain his official record?
Convince folks he is Joe The Plumbers father or Sarah Palin's God Father and they will be reading us his life story on MSNBC.
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Generally that all falls under Privacy act.
Path, if they tossed him it would be a General discharge
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You can still have a millitary funeral with a General or Bad Conduct Discharge. Anything but Dishonorable. He may have been kicked out and still get a military funeral.