The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: garand4life on January 28, 2010, 03:27:47 PM
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It's been a while since I've seen any discussion on the topic, and since I didn't really pay any attention then I figured I would put this out there. I am seriously considering getting on of the Mossberg Cruisers in 12GA. But the question really goes to is there a plausible use for an 18.5" pistol grip shotgun when it comes in self/home defense. Obviously size is a plus but controllability is drastically reduced I figure. So is it worth having as a defensive tool? And are there any other real world utilities for such a design other than breaching a door.
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Hello to all;
I just bought a riot style shotgun 2 weeks ago and have never seen the need for a pistol grip on any shotgun. My guess is that these newer style "pistol grip" shotgun are here due to so many people buying ar's and ak's with pistol grip's , that it's just "natural" for the gun makers to come out with another selling point like the grip. For me it is something that could get in the way at some point if the stuff hits the fan.
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I'm more referring to the Cruiser models which have a pistol grip only. No traditional stock. I am adding a 500 or 590 with the full adjustable AR style stock with pistol grip soon but am considering getting on of the JIC kits that has a 500 Cruisers
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Good friend has a Mossberg 500 with a pistol fore grip and pistol rear grip. It's fun outdoors for hip shots, and hitting water jugs. I NEVER would do that to my 870 Express Magnum.
I can see the mobility and SD applications, but I can move just fine around halls and doors with my 870 and all I've added is an ATI adjustable rear stock. When fully retracted it provides a very compact package with the stability of a shouldered shot, and ability to have no trouble in target acquisition with increased probability of hits. Especially if using shot instead of slugs.
Accuracy with a pistol grip goes way down from the hip, or off stance, unless you practice. My shots with the pistol Mossberg all were high until I "dialed it in". I guess in a household, across a room it would work, but you better have a good grip on that thing, be healthy with strong hand and arm strength. I'd rather know most of the shot is on target than having to "guess" in an SD situation, with adrenaline, and a host of other factors...that a pistol grip makes more difficult.
Just my humble opinion. Looks great in movies. But I don't find them applicable for me. My Stoeger Coach's 12g is even shorter, and is usually the one available as my last resort firearm. That is after, my handgun, and a reload aren't enough.
They are great for blowing up watermelon and water jugs!! ;)
FWIW.
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In my opinion, I think they are better than nothing, but one step away from useless... Unless you are planning to fight on a boat or someplace equally as cramped.... I have a spiral staircase in my house, where if I had to clear the stairwell he extra manueverability may come in handy, but I would sling the long gun and go to pistol in that case anyways.
I have had some folding stock weapons and other than a few times on the range it was fired with the stock folded out... If it is appealing to you from a storage standpoint, then there are several good aftermarket folding stocks for the 'berg....
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One of the features of a Mossberg 500/590 which is touted as superior to the Remington 870 is the safety which is located on the tang. It is said to be superior because it can be manipulated with the thumb without requiring the trigger finger to make additional movements under stress.
This is true, but put a AR style stock..or any full stock with a pistol grip...on the 500/590 and it is a pain to work that safety
I used the Knox stock and it also make using the magazine release difficult because of the placement. Don't know if that would be difficult with other pistol grip stocks..
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I'm actually pretty good with a pistol gripped shotgun at common in the house distance. If I have the whole family gathered in one place, I don't need it, but I've got a tight stairway with 2 turns and it is easier to navigate it with the shorter gun, than my longer Benelli.
I've got a tactical cruiser in desert camo. Mostly, it's just fun. I've shot clay pigeons with it just for fun too.
(http://www.galleryofguns.com/prod_images/52438.JPG)
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One of the features of a Mossberg 500/590 which is touted as superior to the Remington 870 is the safety which is located on the tang. It is said to be superior because it can be manipulated with the thumb without requiring the trigger finger to make additional movements under stress.
This is true, but put a AR style stock..or any full stock with a pistol grip...on the 500/590 and it is a pain to work that safety
I used the Knox stock and it also make using the magazine release difficult because of the placement. Don't know if that would be difficult with other pistol grip stocks..
EXCELLENT POINT
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In Michigan a long gun that meets the federal requirements of 26 inches in length, but is less than 30", is considered a "handgun" and must be registered as such. If you have a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) in Michigan you could then "carry" the pistol gripped shotgun loaded. This law applies to folding or telescoping stocked rifles and shotguns if it is operational with the stock closed and between 26" and 30" in length. There are some advantages to pistol gripped only shotguns. The problem is trying to find a holster for a Mossberg Cruiser or one of the original wood stocked folding Ruger Mini 14s. ;D
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Find the review of MB's SERBU.... Even at the range it was so fun, it hurt for two days,....
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WE have covered this before, a pistol grip if you want to use it, takes a lot of practice, expect a bloody nose at some point, when negotiating doors, you have nothing to hang onto as you open it with your off hand, I think a pistol grip only shotgun is the best excuse for a laser there is, but negotiating doors is a very week point, a full although short stock long gun allows you to tuck the butt, under your arm for shortness, but allows you to bring it up quick with no loss of control. The ultra short shotguns are a complete different subject like the Serbu or Stake out. They are light enough, even when fully loaded to one hand with good control. Recoil is severe, even in .20 guage.
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G4L, When I bought my Mossy 500 it came with an ATI Folding stock, I replaced it with the original wood stock.
First off as M25 points out I had no control over the gun one handed, I could not put a spare ammo sleeve on it, and when the stock was folded it blocked the thumb safety. Another consideration was taking the full recoil of a 12 ga. in one hand at a relatively bad angle because the hand on the slide will be trying to hold the gun DOWN and will be no help with recoil.
Some of these reasons don't apply to your case but the weapon stability issue, both one handed and in recoil are things you might want to consider.
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For home defense I have a 500 with an ATI collapsible stock and a 20 inch vent-rib Bbl. with screw in chokes. I keep a modified in it for tighter patterns with #4 bird shot. I think it should do the job.
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I am more than skeptical. Aiming (good with a shotgun will still qive a three inch group at fifteen feet with oo aught, so aiming is key). Me, I would, and do, go with either a full stock 20" under the armpit, a 9mm with a high cap or an m-forgery that I can handle with the stock collapsed and the pistol grip and fore arm. Though that is the last option. A pistol at 15-20 feet seems like the best plan, a conventional shot gun number two, and anything else a distant third unless you own an MP or the like.
FQ13
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I concur with M25. The cruiser serves a very limited role and would be better served with a good folding stock (side or under/over). Never had much use for a 18/20" pistol gripped shotgun. Cut the barrel back to 12-14" then a AOW is a different breed. I used mine mainly for breaching. My Kentucky CCL would allow it to be carried concealed (Ky looks at it if your justitied to use deadly force the weapon doesn't matter)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/870_breecher.JPG)
CD
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CD that's rock and roll ;D
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Since you can either fire it from the hip and miss the target more easily, or fire it from eye level and risk hitting yourself in the nose with it (Which I saw my brother do when I first got my Mossberg 590. Hilarious!), With a laser sight on the gun, it can have a decent legit use. Otherwise, a folding stock is better. 8)
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I can tuck the butt under my arm and fire 7 shots one handed with my Remington. My stock has a pistol grip on it too. I hope I never have one hand disabled but it's nice to know I can shoot it that way. The pistol grip only guns look kind of cool but don't seem very practical.
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I keep it simple a Moss 500 Ati stock and it sits behind my closet door in soft case hung from a hook.
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I keep it simple a Moss 500 Ati stock and it sits behind ny closet door in soft case hung from a hook.
My Maverick leans against the wall by my bed, with a glock under the empty (sad or good, I differ depending on he day) pillow on the double bed (both loaded, with empty chambers). Some may say this is paranoid. Me, I see it like this. I spent good money buying these guns and learning how to shoot them. If I need them, I'll need them right the hell now, not 5 minutes from now. Why not keep them where I can grab them, as kids aren't an issue? I have little expectation to face a threat in my home, as I live in a safe neighborhood, but its as easy to keep the shotgun by the bed as in my closet, and costs nothing. Why not?
FQ13
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I agree with everything you said. I keep my 500 in the closet and a glock22 in my nightstand. My girl keeps a glock19 in her nightstand, and we bother keep or cells handy. Not that i live in a bad neighborhood but i'd rather be ready for anything than be caught flat footed in a pinch.
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I agree with everything you said. I keep my 500 in the closet and a glock22 in my nightstand. My girl keeps a glock19 in her nightstand, and we bother keep or cells handy. Not that i live in a bad neighborhood but i'd rather be ready for anything than be caught flat footed in a pinch.
And here is the sad thing. The anti's don't understand that you grab your cell to CYA, while you grab your gun to to save it. Even the best PD on the planet, with the most competant cops, is still 5 minutes away if you're lucky. The burglar is here right now and so is the gun. The 911 call is basically to say "I'm going to shoot this guy, but I really don't want to, is everyone ok with this?" Sad thing for Phil is that in OZ, they have lost their damn minds and aren't. Here in most of the US, if you dial, warn and are in your own home, you're fine.
FQ13
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And here is the sad thing. The anti's don't understand that you grab your cell to CYA, while you grab your gun to to save it. Even the best PD on the planet, with the most competant cops, is still 5 minutes away if you're lucky. The burglar is here right now and so is the gun. The 911 call is basically to say "I'm going to shoot this guy, but I really don't want to, is everyone ok with this?" Sad thing for Phil is that in OZ, they have lost their damn minds and aren't. Here in most of the US, if you dial, warn and are in your own home, you're fine.
FQ13
'911, what's your emergency?'
'If the cops can't get here in four seconds, skip it and just send a clean up crew.'
Seriously though, I'm looking to get a new defense shotgun, and the pistol grip has crossed my mind...we'll see. I've been looking at the ones made by Mako. Any one own a Mako product?
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'911, what's your emergency?'
'If the cops can't get here in four seconds, skip it and just send a clean up crew.'
Seriously though, I'm looking to get a new defense shotgun, and the pistol grip has crossed my mind...we'll see. I've been looking at the ones made by Mako. Any one own a Mako product?
If you have the green there is no question. Buy the Mossberg 590 with the ghost rings and top mounted safety. The Marines chose it for a reason. I carried one in Ak.and it is tops on the list of guns I wish I'd never sold. Screw the pistol grip. News flash, a 12 gauge with an 18 inch barrel ain't a pistol unless you're built like Arnie. A buttstock tucked under your arm however.... ;) Thing is, my Maverick is the bargain basement version. The 870 is to the 590 as Craftsman is to Snap On. Good enough, but not the same. The sight and the safety make it worth the 5 bills if you have them. I didn't and think I got my money's worth with my $230 Maverick. However, the RH trigger mounted safety is so sticky I have just decided to leave it off and pretend its an old school revolver. Keep your finger off the trigger and don't drop it. I like the gun, but I don't trust the safety. Good enough for a by the bed SD weapon, but if I wanted anything more from it (like being an LEO or doing three gun competition) it would be unacceptable.
FQ13
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.....Not that i live in a bad neighborhood.......
Too many people think the above is enough to keep them safe.....
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One of my favorite sayings - "When seconds count, the Police are only minutes away!"
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This is my 870 with the ATI stock, I did have to work the angle between the stock adapter and the stock itself, as the drop would not allow me look over the barrel without raising my cheek off the stock, I just kept working the angle until I could see over barrel naturally. Mine is a 20" rifle sight barrel with night sights, surefire forend, vang safety, ( I highly recommend them, large and easy to manipulate when going to the trigger, and inexpensive. ) scattergun 7rd mag, and side saddle. Got lucky and bought a Sig 556 butt stock, nice because is has decent rubber pad, and 2 battery carriers for the surefire, and it was only 30 bucks. If I just grab the shotgun, I have 10 rds of mixed ammo to start. All of the ammo in the magazine are turkey loads, mixed 4 and 6 shot in the same cartridge, side saddle are buck shot 00.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1338.jpg)
The other items are bedside companions for me and Momma.
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When I was a kid I had a mossberg 500 with front and rear pistolgrips. I keep it in my truck as I lived in the rough part of Houston then. Did save my Arse a couple of times but mostly from fear factor alone. We had alot of fun shooting bowling pins and the sort, but in a real home invasion I would not see it as practical. As pointed out before by "I think My older Bro." you have no support when it comes to opening doors or if needed, to reload...Also I would like to point out the reach you would have with a full or collapsible stock if you have a malfunction and your only choice is to use it as a blunt weapon...Don't forget that either end is just as deadly when it comes to fracturing the nasal passage or the larynx. Stick with something that has the most versatility.
My safe is about 15' away in my retreat. 5 buttons and I am in. I have a Remington 870 home defense model with +2 tube extension and a Surefire handgaurd. Also it has an ATI stock with a 5 rnd side-saddle. "which I will change out for a receiver model SOON". I keep #7 loaded and 3 00 buck and 2 slugs in the saddle. Ghost ring sights and a Wilson Combat oversized Safety. Simple, Rugged, Reliable... The AR in the safe is a YHM Diamond XL I built up from parts with VLTOR Emod stock and Magpul almost everything else...A 3 mag bandoleer I can sling over my shoulder. "these are a smart cheap investment".
Under my night stand is a pistol safe that I keep the Springfield Armory XD45 with Insight M3 light on it. I can remove the light and use it on the AR in a momants notice. I also have 2 13rnd mags in a pouch. Cell phone and home phone as I am on call 24/7 for work. Like the 870 surefire light. I like having a rail light that I can change from weapon to weapon. At $100.00 to $200.00 a pop, I can't afford to have a light on everything...
Carlton
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The other items are bedside companions for me and Momma.
Nice setup on that shotgun! Are the j-frames .38's or .357's?
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Fuzzdaddy, the 649 is a .38 spl, the 940 is a 9mm. The 940 uses full moon clips like the 625.
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Carlton,
That 5.56mm bandoleer that you have looks like the one out of the MOLLE ruck. If it is you should be able to put 2 USGI mags in each slot. I've got one just like it loaded with 6 mags for a run and grab.
CD
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Carlton,
That 5.56mm bandoleer that you have looks like the one out of the MOLLE ruck. If it is you should be able to put 2 USGI mags in each slot. I've got one just like it loaded with 6 mags for a run and grab.
CD
CD,
You got it! Problem is I don't have any USGI mags. Gave them all to my younger brother when I bought about 36 Pmags.
I have 2 of these and the other I had to buy some extra female snaps to adjust for the Pmags size. But it will hold 6 Pmags with the dust cover on either end. They are great to have!!! Stay safe over there!!!
Here's a pic of the other one I have... Carlton
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.......the 649 is a .38 spl,.....
My 649 is a .357........... ;D
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Carlton,
That 5.56mm bandoleer that you have looks like the one out of the MOLLE ruck. If it is you should be able to put 2 USGI mags in each slot. I've got one just like it loaded with 6 mags for a run and grab.
CD
Where can you get these bandoliers?
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Where can you get these bandoliers?
Here is where I found the Bandoleers. http://cgi.ebay.com/6-MAG-MOLLE-II-Bandolier-Bandoleer-Coyote-SDS-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ390148385002QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad6a7e8ea...
But if you look a little more, you can find them for half that price and in other patterns...
Carlton
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Fuzzdaddy, the 649 is a .38 spl, the 940 is a 9mm. The 940 uses full moon clips like the 625.
Them is nice! I wish I could find one of those 940's around here.
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I'm actually pretty good with a pistol gripped shotgun at common in the house distance. If I have the whole family gathered in one place, I don't need it, but I've got a tight stairway with 2 turns and it is easier to navigate it with the shorter gun, than my longer Benelli.
I've got a tactical cruiser in desert camo. Mostly, it's just fun. I've shot clay pigeons with it just for fun too.
(http://www.galleryofguns.com/prod_images/52438.JPG)
Just as an asside, I just found out that when a NICS check is made on "shotguns" with a pistol grip without a stock is not classified as a "Long Gun" (rifle or shotgun). Actually, Other, needs to be checked on the 4473 form.
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I have a Winchester 1300 9 shot 12 Ga. pistol grip. You can buy a stock so you have dual purpose gun. Its very handy.
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I can still nail clays with my Maverick 88: