The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: cjwise5 on January 30, 2010, 11:00:17 AM
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I did a search hoping this had been discussed before - didn't find anything so I'm asking the question.
I have very little experience with this. Only the minimal training that the average county Sheriff's dept. can afford.
Here goes: ( maybe one of the trainers can help narrow this down for me)
Stay seated? Get out? Under what circumstances?
Ambushed? Carjacking? If the badguy is at your window - use a knife instead?
Run the guy over? Drive away?
The only thing that seems painfully obvious to me is to make a choice - Fight or drive, can't do both.
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Fight or drive are not the choices, the choice is fight with several 230 grain or less projectiles or one 300,000 grain projectile.
If the bad guy is "Right at your window" If the situation is bad enough to stab him it is bad enough to shoot him , repeatedly.
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CJ last years Best Defense, Rob Pincus did an excellent, although short section on video about fighting from inside a vehicle, I could not find it either, although I thought the video section was on here some where.
My thoughts are drive if you can ( create distance, possibly escape ), fight if you can't, make sure your duty rig allows you to draw seated with a seat belt on, if not and department rules allow, change it, or have a back up in a position that you can draw from that position. Knife is last ditch effort, carry one, but hope it does not get to that point.
Maybe Rob will chime in.
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CJ last years Best Defense, Rob Pincus did an excellent, although short section on video about fighting from inside a vehicle, I could not find it either, although I thought the video section was on here some where.
My thoughts are drive if you can ( create distance, possibly escape ), fight if you can't, make sure your duty rig allows you to draw seated with a seat belt on, if not and department rules allow, change it, or have a back up in a position that you can draw from that position. Knife is last ditch effort, carry one, but hope it does not get to that point.
Maybe Rob will chime in.
Exactly what m25 said!!
That's of corse is if your thinking of a personal SD situation. If your coming from an LEO perspective it might be a little different. I carry a knife but its for opening boxes cutting rope ect., I'm going to use my gun in a knife fight before i use a knife in a knife fight. Hell I'll probably going to run like frightened school girl ::) if I'm within knife cutting range! Distance is your friend! Gives you options. And I like options!!
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Drive or shoot.... dont try to do both
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I think it might be best to say Drive if you can, Shoot if you have to!
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Not on thread, but 20 yrs ago, here in Dallas there was a car chase, perp shot a state trooper and he had to bail while chasing the perp, this was from 2 moving vehicles. One of my hometown cops, ( Garland ) picked up the chase down I30 east bound, shot the perp at 100 mph, weakhanded out the window across the windshield. Headshot, I got to hear the audio from the chase, because a co workers mom, was the girlfriend of the cop, and he had a copy on cassette. Lucky? you bet, but bragging rights for years.
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As a lefty, I have always tried to think about my strong hand, and holstered weapon coming up along side the driver side door, and having to fend off an in your face BG with my weak hand. Or bringing the muzzle to target up the door and canted "outboard" to engage. As a southpaw, I have to "adjust".
On longer drives, I unholster, and place the pistol in a centered position, and practice weak hand drills often. Especially drive up ATM's, which I avoid at night or in "questionable" areas. Or watch my mirrors, even at a Drive thru McDonalds, etc,...
If given a no time to respond scenario, I'm gonna get low and punch it. My reaction time to the gas pedal, is going to be faster, than drawing my weapon.
but variables always come into the picture. Rob, or MB would probably have a valid suggestion also.
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If I was in the position where I thought I would need to shoot from my car/truck I believe I would get a pair of in the ear hearing protectors which automatically shut off a portion of the blast from gunfire yet still allowed me to hear. It can be bad with let alone without. I wouldn't want to take a chance with what hearing I have left.
JMHO
Richard
PS: No, I don't believe there is a high percentage chance I would have to around where I live.
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IN Robs scenario, I asked him about that, had to be very loud, as he shot through a window, + the percussion from the enclosed space, I would do it, but know the price is high.
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WHAT ?
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Percussion in the car while we were filming Rob was extremely loud.
I think the briefest summary we could put together would be "drive if you can" — being in a big steel box is better than not — and drive erratic and fast — it's harder to hit a moving target than television makes it appear to be. We've all put a lot of rounds through various and sundry cars, and there's lots of doo-dads in car bodies that stop or deflect bullets.
In general, if I'm traveling in a car for more than a trip to the convenience store, I prefer (and recommend) a dedicated driving holster that readily gives you access to your carry gun without doing the Rob Pincus dance to get to a strong side IWB. For short trips, I tend to stick a pocket pistol in the center console so it is more readily accessible.
If you've gotta bail out of the car, BAIL TOWARD COVER! That is, make sure you sight a destination before you exit the car. Running down the middle of the street screaming like a little girl is not, repeat not, a plan. In exiting the car, the armed person protects the unarmed person during the exit...ideally, driver and passenger need to bail out the same side of the car, the one closest to cover. Armed person first to if necessary provide cover for the unarmed person. A good reason to have 2 guns (as I typically do on driving trips) is that you have a means to arm the passenger.
In the past I've recommend higher capacity guns for long driving trips, as a carjacking is one of the few civilian situations where multiple attackers are the norm. Typically, I carry a larger capacity 9mm loaded antipersonnel ammunition backed up by a magazine of heavy duty penetrators. Considering my baseline paranoia, my next driving trip will include as my second gun (the one not on my person) the Spike's Tactical 9mm AR pistol with 30-round magazines and a single point sling, an Aimpoint Micro mounted on the top rail and an Insight MX6 white light/laster on the right side rail. If I gotta fight, I'd prefer the firepower advantage, thank you!
As I said in what has become my most controversial podcast, I have indeed traveled with a carbine and I suspect I may well again. In a period of intense social dislocation, if I have to travel I want a long gun with me. The podcast came after an urban riot situation where the passenger and driver of a car "stumbled" into a riot — a MAJOR failure of situational awareness — and, as I remember, the driver got out to try and "calm things down." That's exactly what happened, as the driver ended up dead and there's nothing quite so calm as a dead person. The podcast was controversial because I said if you are trapped in a riot situation and you have seen lethal or potentially lethal violence directed at you or innocents, ALL the participants in the riot are equally guilty of participating in lethal attacks and your actions must take that into account...in other words, if you're in front of me, I will drive over you without regard to race, color, creed, age, religion or sexual orientation. Ditto if, heaven forbid, I have to shoot my way out of such a situation.
Michael B
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What a fun subject! This is one of the classes that we offer and generally have the most interest in, well, Vehicle Defense and Extreme Close Quarters Defense. Matter-of-fact - we have a LEO (Instructor) class coming up in the first week of May in Panama City, FL. We have some videos and still photos on our website.
Now, back to the question..
As previously stated, fight or drive NOT BOTH!
If the threat presents itself from the drivers side of the vehicle you may have to fight while you are "seated" but you need to get away from the window. This puts some distance between yourself and the threat and keeps your firearm out of the immediate threat of take away. Exiting the vehicle if it is disabled or it is blocked in, may be needed. Use as much of the cover the vehicle will provide, but be aware that it is not as much cover as you may think. And never forget about the "beauty of bouncing bullets" because it works both ways and not only on the ground. Bullets will bounce off of the hood of your vehicle. When you are crouched behind the engine block using it as cover and the bullet bounces off of the hood of the vehicle where do you think it will go?
Here in California one of the popular methods of carjacking is the bump and rob. Car gets tapped from behind and the guy gets out to check the damage, you do too and suddenly the guy that rear ended you tells you to hand over your keys. He takes your keys and his passenger slides into the drivers seat of his car and they drive away. This has also been happening at red lights, the big difference there is that they put a car in front of you and behind you so getting away is nearly impossible. If you are going to drive away don't worry about hitting other vehicles. Drive away hard and aggressively.
As for the knife... Well, I would be more prone to using a firearm than a knife, but I guess that would also depend on what is available and your level of training.
Well, I could go on at length on this subject, it is a four day class with A LOT of information.
cjwise5 - if you are in law enforcement and you would like to message me your Training Officers contact information I can send out a couple of Course Syllabuses that may be of interest.
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Thanks for all the replies on this. Guess my opinion is that being ambushed as an officer in this situation would require that I fight or drive. The bad guy and the situation he creates will dictate my response on that one. Kinda hard to game it in my head at this point. If it's a carjacking - my response will be determined by my cargo, ie: the family. If I'm alone. I think I'm going to get out and let him have the car. (not sure of the legal freedoms of re-engaging the guy once he's distracted by getting into my car) If, on the other hand my wife and kids are in the car with me I think I would go for my gun. Don't want the bad guy dumping rounds into my car as I'm driving off. Especially with my kids in there.
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something to think about, a 3000 lb car is a 21 millon grain projectile.
15 mph is 22 fps, said 3000 lb car has 66000 ftlbs of energy whentraveling 15 mph.
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something to think about, a 3000 lb car is a 21 millon grain projectile.
15 mph is 22 fps, said 3000 lb car has 66000 ftlbs of energy whentraveling 15 mph.
Tell me about it.....try it at 45mph.......... ;)
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Tell me about it.....try it at 45mph.......... ;)
and a 6500 lb 1 ton truck. ;D
honestly I think I'd rather be shot then hit by a car.
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and a 6500 lb 1 ton truck. ;D
honestly I think I'd rather be shot then hit by a car.
Alright, boys and girls, the line to get shot forms right behind TAB. ;D
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Lots of good stuff here guys... Over the years, I've done the demo from inside the car several times and over the last year, probably done it more than any other, between taping for PFD, TBD and SWAT TV.... I've found some things about the issue of "percussion":
Shooting through the driver side window is least and shooting through the rear window results in the most "Boom".... I think the physics are pretty obvious. The expanding gasses that create the pressure and the accompanying "bang" are being blown out of the actual passenger compartment when you shoot through the driver side glass and have the most room to expand and bounce off the other interior surfaces back at your when you shoot through the rear glass.
There is also an odd type of pressure wave that can be noticed when shooting through the windshield, because while it is usually close to the muzzle, it also doesn't shatter, so some gas is vented, but it is still very loud.
-RJP
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Thanks Rob, you made me think of another point -
Shooting through the windshield should be considered but can be very dangerous. The glass particles that are splashed back may be more dangerous long term than many consider. The immediate concern would be getting them into your eyes, there by compromising your vision. Those same particles getting into your mouth and nose can be carried down into your esophagus and lungs causing hemorrhaging and other long term problems.
If it must be done hold your breath. Before you inhale blow out HARD through your nose and then your mouth. When you get out of the vehicle look up, hold your breath and shake/wipe your clothing off vigorously. Step backwards and repeat the blowing through the nose then mouth.
I may be overly cautious but my years in the medical field taught me that the body really doesn't like to try to absorb or digest glass.
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I had a fella try to car jack me once and all I did was stomp on the gas and drove away with my driver side door flopping open. I was lucky, simple as that. I did not have my door locked and I was more interested in finding something on the radio that resembled music than paying attention to my surroundings. I got lucky but luck is not a plan. Personally I work on my awreness skills more than my shooting skills when it somes to driving.
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I had a fella try to car jack me once and all I did was stomp on the gas and drove away with my driver side door flopping open. I was lucky, simple as that. I did not have my door locked and I was more interested in finding something on the radio that resembled music than paying attention to my surroundings. I got lucky but luck is not a plan. Personally I work on my awreness skills more than my shooting skills when it somes to driving.
Us pedestrians thank you. ;D