The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: twyacht on January 30, 2010, 09:01:47 PM
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After almost 70 years. With our countries own domestic problems, and the strategic relevance? of a military base in Japan; the pattern of thinking "we're just always going to be there" needs a fresh approach. IMHO.
Why do we need to be in Okinawa?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1247281/Thousands-protest-Tokyo-U-S-military-presence-Japan.html
I would move ops to South Korea, just to piss off Kim-Jong-Idiot, that seems strategically and geographically just as good, and it would be good PR, and save money.
I know money means nothing to a gov't that spends it freely as it's technically "our" taxpaying dollars....but geez...
Time to think outside the box.
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To hell with those little gooner azzholes, If it wasn't for the innate kindness and big hearts of Americans there would not be a live Japanese ON Okinawa. They need to shut up and remember that their defending Army had less than 50 survivors and they were ALL wounded, badly.
We need Okinawa because it's an unsinkable aircraft carrier like England, also, since Japan is no longer a "militant " nation but has at least 2 neighbors who are (N Korea and China ) our presence guarantees Japans safety.
Okinawa is the best choice because,
1 diplomatic considerations rule out Taiwan,
2 June 25 1950 showed the strategic vulnerability of South Korean bases
3 Reaction times and travel distances, as well as political interests and safety issues rule out a return to the Phillipines.
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Send them to Taiwan. They are going to need them.
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To hell with those little gooner azzholes, If it wasn't for the innate kindness and big hearts of Americans there would not be a live Japanese ON Okinawa. They need to shut up and remember that their defending Army had less than 50 survivors and they were ALL wounded, badly.
We need Okinawa because it's an unsinkable aircraft carrier like England, also, since Japan is no longer a "militant " nation but has at least 2 neighbors who are (N Korea and China ) our presence guarantees Japans safety.
Okinawa is the best choice because,
1 diplomatic considerations rule out Taiwan,
2 June 25 1950 showed the strategic vulnerability of South Korean bases
3 Reaction times and travel distances, as well as political interests and safety issues rule out a return to the Phillipines.
4 deepwater needs a watering hole (had a few drunks there before....)
5 Phillipines... well.... no sailor worth his salt could be found on board unless he had the duty... not a way to remain 'battle ready' ;D ;D ;D
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Send them to Taiwan. They are going to need them.
We spent the 20th century fighting other peoples wars and getting sh!t on for it.
You think we should spend the 21st wasting our blood and resources on more ungrateful foreigners ?
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For those 5 reasons, from tom and deepwater, it seems to make more sense.
Just wondering. I know China wants Taiwan back really bad, and the U.S. just made a huge weapons deal with Taiwan, but Japan?
Can they not defend themselves from that little schmuck in N korea? Do you think China will attempt to conquer the region?
Seems unlikely.
We spent the 20th century fighting other peoples wars and getting sh!t on for it.
You think we should spend the 21st wasting our blood and resources on more ungrateful foreigners ?
He!! NO!
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but Japan?
Can they not defend themselves from that little schmuck in N korea? Do you think China will attempt to conquer the region?
IIRC, Japan, by the treaty signed at the end of WWI, is prevented from establishing a military force?
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They have the "Japanese Self Defense Force" and after 9-11 they amended their Constitution to allow it to serve outside Japan so they could assist us in the war on terror, but while they are very professional the force is very small, and aimed primarily at SELF defense and Fisheries protection, while N Korea has one of the largest Armies in Asia, and when they test their missiles they often shoot them over Japan into the Pacific. Japan has the lead in quality, but they would be swamped by sheer numbers.
China ? As far as Taiwan/ Formosa it's hard to say because so much of the decision would depend on internal Chinese politics, as for the rest of the region I see them preferring a course of economic domination, and political influence rather than military domination, although the military option will always have a place in theirs neighbors minds.
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TomB, I think your sounding more Presidential by the day.
Not kidding either.
tw
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Must be because I didn't waste my time on reading Law. ;D
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It's time for us to go back to the 50's....
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Write in TT and I in 2012.
(If the country lasts that long )
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After almost 70 years. With our countries own domestic problems, and the strategic relevance? of a military base in Japan; the pattern of thinking "we're just always going to be there" needs a fresh approach. IMHO.
Why do we need to be in Okinawa?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1247281/Thousands-protest-Tokyo-U-S-military-presence-Japan.html
I would move ops to South Korea, just to piss off Kim-Jong-Idiot, that seems strategically and geographically just as good, and it would be good PR, and save money.
I know money means nothing to a gov't that spends it freely as it's technically "our" taxpaying dollars....but geez...
Time to think outside the box.
The younger generation of Koreans don't want us in Korea either. When I was stationed their we had regular protests agains the US bases their. As Tom said Okinawa has a great runway and a place to station our reserves for Korea and Taiwan or any other little shit hole that needs saving!!
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Hate to put the brakes on all this isolationist crap, but didn't we learn the dangers of averting our eyes from the world scene under BJ klintoon?
9/11 happened precisely because (a) we stopped paying attention, (b) "we" (as in the gummint) entrenched this myopia in the bureaucracies (e.g. the FBI & CIA "wall"), and (c) we were perceived as weak, dis-interested and non-responsive by our many enemies.
In this day and age, when a disease can hop a plane and be in the States in hours - as can a terrorist or enemy fighter - we need eyes and ears - and boots on the ground - around the world. Perhaps not bases, but even nuclear powered ships need to be re-provisioned occasionally. And we have historically seen countries close their ports to us - as happened after the USS Cole was bombed - just when we needed them. So relying on commercial ports is not only dangerous, it may not even be viable.
The one aspect of Ron Paul I could not stomach was his absurd so-called "foreign policy" - which was little more than Wilson's pre-WWI isolationist sentiments. I can see scaling the number of bases back, but even that is problematic - that would concentrate our presence into a small number of easily eliminated locations.
Simple solutions are good. But if simple gets you attacked - or killed - maybe a little more complicated is a good thing.
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Actually 9-11 happened because our government lacked the guts to kill some one (Bin Laden ) that even BJ knew needed killing.
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Honestly, if the American Foreign Policy direction, over the last 30+ years, had not been so UN mandated "diplomatic", and we just came out and said we will unequivocally and without any bias or prejudice, bomb anyone back to the stone age if attacked, and any host countries will suffer the consequences for their lack of enforcing International Law regarding Acts Of Terrorism.
The world would gasp, the "diplomatic elite" would call us war mongering radicals, the Un would condemn our remarks, but I'll bet the terrorists "hangin out" in Pakistan, would be rounded up pretty quick.
Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but the result to Kim-Jong-Idiot, Chavez, little man in Iran, and anyone else would be:
How badly do I want to do this and say something stupid?
It's not isolationism, it's a blanket threat to problematic countries, that reminds the world we are still a Superpower, and we will turn 1/2 of Afghanistan into pretty glass beads if attacked.
No invading troops on the ground, no drones, we're talking B-52's and the good ol' silo's on Submarines, and silo's "somewhere" in Kansas....
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Another reason 9/11 happened was the intel community was slashed by BJ. He slashed our military also.
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BTW, I forgot to mention, Starting with an air campaign in Somalia, and dive bomb the pirate motherships, authorize a Jefferson type approach to Muslim Pirates that worked a couple hundred years ago. Navy ships could "seek and destroy" all of them. One warning shot across the bow, and if they resist or run; they are artificial reefs....
Arm the commercial and merchant marine ships, and let Yemen know their next on the smack down. Damascus, Syria, N. Korea, Venezuela, and the UN can relocate to Paris. (seems more fitting),....
Probably, too "rough" around the edges,......in today's world.... :-\
Implement an El Al "style" security for commercial air travel. "Don't feel discriminated against, We Profile everybody." Enjoy your flight.
Armed Air Marshalls in plain sight, one in the front and back, pilots required to carry.
Too bad we're such a kind and gentler nation,,,,,seemed to have worked out didn't it?
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I bet if we nuked N Korea and Iran the rest would get REAL peaceful REAL quick.
Syria no longer HAS a nuke program, the Israeli's stole it a couple years ago.
Landed troops to secure the area, loaded up the good stuff, Plutonium, documents, and scientists, and blew up everything else.
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I bet if we nuked N Korea and Iran the rest would get REAL peaceful REAL quick.
Syria no longer HAS a nuke program, the Israeli's stole it a couple years ago.
Landed troops to secure the area, loaded up the good stuff, Plutonium, documents, and scientists, and blew up everything else.
And our current administration has tried to piss them off. Not the sort of fellas we want after us. Maybe we should poke them with a stick and get them to do our dirty work and finish off the rest of the radical islam.
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Actually 9-11 happened because our government lacked the guts to kill some one (Bin Laden ) that even BJ knew needed killing.
BTW: There will be NO such lack of guts under a Bogan/TT Administration.
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BTW: There will be NO such lack of guts under a Bogan/TT Administration.
Here Here!!!!
I think "little man" from Iran and Chavez, and Kim-Jong-Dork, would scurry back to their bathrooms and take a big "time out", if there was a little "violation of air space" perhaps a sonic boom over each countries capital with the re-vitalized and rushed F-22 Raptor Project. Buzz them at Mach "wide open throttle", and shake the very foundation of their buildings.
Combat Pilots would probably volunteer by the hundreds to do a "fly by" over these little punk wannabe dictators.
Ya' know, just to say hello,,,,,we're back.....
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Another reason 9/11 happened was the intel community was slashed by BJ. He slashed our military also.
I can attest to the intel budgets being slashed. I remember after the first failed attempt to bring down the Twin Towers with a bomb i knew there was a credible threat of flying an airliner into them back in late '93 early '94.
Took a while...but it happened.
I really don't think keeping our budgets up are our best defense against terrorism, I think a like-minded, homogenous society is the best defense. Something we abandoned in the 60's and 70's. I remember the WWII vets raising hell during the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis wondering why we were allowing foreigners in the country to study sciences, etc. that it would dilute and bring us down as well as educate them and allow them to work against us more effectively.
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I can attest to the intel budgets being slashed. I remember after the first failed attempt to bring down the Twin Towers with a bomb i knew there was a credible threat of flying an airliner into them back in late '93 early '94.
Took a while...but it happened.
I really don't think keeping our budgets up are our best defense against terrorism, I think a like-minded, homogenous society is the best defense. Something we abandoned in the 60's and 70's. I remember the WWII vets raising hell during the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis wondering why we were allowing foreigners in the country to study sciences, etc. that it would dilute and bring us down as well as educate them and allow them to work against us more effectively.
A like minded homogenous society? What alternate universe do you live in? The world of conservative white protestant anglo saxon men? Those who inhabit an America who never had a mick, spic, pollack, dago, kike, hun, fag, chink, jap or raghead make his way to these shores? Or what about niggers or Injuns? Oh, by the way, in the nineteen sixties they invented these things called women. I think they're pretty cool, but that's just me. "like minded and homogenous" in Hitler's dream world maybe, but its never been reality in the US of A . ::) ::) ::)
FQ13 who wonders why people don't teach history anymore. America is and allways has been a messy place politically. Its what you believe that matters. Like minded, sort of. Homogenous, nope. Want that? Go back to the Old Country. E Pluribus Unum.
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How about Americans dumbazz.
Correction, ENGLISH SPEAKING American CITIZENS.
FQ, You really are an ignorant, uninformed, overeducated azz.
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How about Americans dumbazz.
Correction, ENGLISH SPEAKING American CITIZENS.
FQ, You really are an ignorant, uninformed, overeducated azz.
And who are those AmericansTom? Franklin hated the Germans, the Irish were discrimated against, as were the Italins, the jews and the Finns and the Hungarians. Chinese Exclusion Act ringing any bells? Hell, we still told pollack jokes in high school. Guess what? They all assimilated. This is the key. Come legally and assimilate , expanding the culture as you do so. America has never been a homogenous place. Hell, the intial national motto, E Pluribus Unum had six shields representing Britain, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, the Netherlands, Germany and France, surrounded by banners of the thirteen original colonies. One ideal yes. One Volk? Only if you ignore your history.
FQ13 Who thinks that he might not be winning the prize for ignorance here.
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And who are those AmericansTom? Franklin hated the Germans, the Irish were discrimated against, as were the Italins, the jews and the Finns and the Hungarians. Chinese Exclusion Act ringing any bells? Hell, we still told pollack jokes in high school. Guess what? They all assimilated. This is the key. Come legally and assimilate , expanding the culture as you do so. America has never been a homogenous place. Hell, the intial national motto, E Pluribus Unum had six shields representing Britain, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, the Netherlands, Germany and France, surrounded by banners of the thirteen original colonies. One ideal yes. One Volk? Only if you ignore your history.
FQ13 Who thinks that he might not be winning the prize for ignorance here.
That's what makes them Americans. Like TR said there is no place in this country for "Hyphenated Americans". "Celebrating diversity" is self destructive. any one who doesn't like the White Christian dominated society is free to leave since no other culture besides the Chinese have contributed nearly as much to society.
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That's what makes them Americans. Like TR said there is no place in this country for "Hyphenated Americans". "Celebrating diversity" is self destructive. any one who doesn't like the White Christian dominated society is free to leave since no other culture besides the Chinese have contributed nearly as much to society.
On this, we agree.
FQ13
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Then take my word for it that political liberalism is a dead end street. Other than the old maid with the binoculars across the street, no one really gives a hoot what you do in your home, but Conservative principles such as not supporting lazy sows and keeping Government OUT of the affairs of business is far better than the liberals "planned economy that worked so well for the USSR or the socialized medicine that Spain Germany and other countries are trying to get rid of.
Write in TT and I in 2012.
If you are under 45 you will not recognize the country you will be proud to get out of it, if you're OVER 45 you will be looking for the lyrics to "happy Days are here again.
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Then take my word for it that political liberalism is a dead end street. Other than the old maid with the binoculars across the street, no one really gives a hoot what you do in your home, but Conservative principles such as not supporting lazy sows and keeping Government OUT of the affairs of business is far better than the liberals "planned economy that worked so well for the USSR or the socialized medicine that Spain Germany and other countries are trying to get rid of.
Write in TT and I in 2012.
If you are under 45 you will not recognize the country you will be proud to get out of it, if you're OVER 45 you will be looking for the lyrics to "happy Days are here again.
Substitute "libertarian", (screw that!) , lets call a spade a spade and say classical liberalism, for conservative and I am on board. The difference is this. A clasical liberal, in the spirit of Locke, Jefferson, Mill and Franklin, believes that lassiez faire applies not just to our economic choices, but our lifestyle decisions as well. The government has two main mandates. 1) provide security, infrastructure, education and a neutral court of law to settle disputes. 2) To leave me the hell alone otherwise, beyond asking me for my time, money, forbearance or blood to acomplish objective one. Anything else is BS. People should rise or fall on their own merits. I am my brother's brother, but I am not his keeper. I also feel zero need to be policeman to the world. Imperial overeach isn't a theory, its reality. Let the UN deal with the nonsense. If they try to dictate our laws, well, we have nukes for a reason.
FQ13 who is socially libereal, fiscally conservative and a cold blooded realist when it comes to FP. In short, the same position our founders took. Find me a candidate who backs these ideas and I will vote for them.
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Substitute "libertarian", (screw that!) , lets call a spade a spade and say classical liberalism, for conservative and I am on board. The difference is this. A clasical liberal, in the spirit of Locke, Jefferson, Mill and Franklin, believes that lassiez faire applies not just to our economic choices, but our lifestyle decisions as well. The government has two main mandates. 1) provide security, infrastructure, education and a neutral court of law to settle disputes. 2) To leave me the hell alone otherwise, beyond asking me for my time, money, forbearance or blood to acomplish objective one. Anything else is BS. People should rise or fall on their own merits. I am my brother's brother, but I am not his keeper. I also feel zero need to be policeman to the world. Imperial overeach isn't a theory, its reality. Let the UN deal with the nonsense. If they try to dictate our laws, well, we have nukes for a reason.
FQ13 who is socially libereal, fiscally conservative and a cold blooded realist when it comes to FP. In short, the same position our founders took. Find me a candidate who backs these ideas and I will vote for them.
Where to start?
Jefferson and Franklin only represent one side of the Founding Fathers' thinking. An important part, but if you only take their word for it, you're missing a huge part of the thinking.
"I am my brother's brother, but I am not his keeper. " - yes, yes you are. Read the Cain and Able story in Genesis and learn the lesson. Since you won't, I'll net it out for you. It does not mean that you are required to destroy yourself to help everyone, but it does mean you are to be aware that they are in need. You are responsible for knowing - and acting accordingly.
"socially liberal" - in this day and age, this means the absolute contrary position to what Jefferson and Franklin believed. "Socially liberal" today means in your face anything goes and you damn well better not only be "tolerant", but will be called upon to "celebrate" abhorrent, counter-productive, and socially destructive behaviors. The Founders were the products of a society that used the stocks to punish those who transgressed societal norms.
Even you believe in some societal norms, else why would you have said in a previous post "Come legally and assimilate"? Assimilate to what? Answer - some sort of societal norm that has limits.
"Socially liberal" and "classical liberal" are not the same thing, not even close. And this is why I refer to you as a faux "libertarian" - you have been so thoroughly indoctrinated into believing the modern American "socially liberal" part that you have confused it with the "classic liberal" concepts.
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Where to start?
"I am my brother's brother, but I am not his keeper. " - yes, yes you are. Read the Cain and Able story in Genesis and learn the lesson. Since you won't, I'll net it out for you. It does not mean that you are required to destroy yourself to help everyone, but it does mean you are to be aware that they are in need. You are responsible for knowing - and acting accordingly.
Path, I know this is not your intent with that directive, but it is surely the justification for MANY wrongs. To paraphrase BC, it all depends upon your definition of 'need'.
For instance. I KNOW my neighbor/brother NEEDS to keep his firearms from harming others, so I will act accordingly and make it LAW that he keeps them disassembled and lock up.
Abortion doctors are killed with this justification. I do not know if you believe that killing for this reason is morally justified or not, but others have been killed for wearing provocative clothes.
There is, and should be, a distinction between moral and legal. J-walking is illegal, but I would not consider it immoral. Not attending church services or otherwise keeping holy the Sabbath may be considered immoral, but I do not believe it should be made illegal.
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A little late to this game but...
Actually 9-11 happened because our government lacked the guts to kill some one (Bin Laden ) that even BJ knew needed killing.
The seed was sown when Slick Willy was still in diapers. A lot of it can be traced to the end of WW2 and the way the area was divided up, and the establishment of Israel. The Arabs left the rest of the world basically alone until the 70s when the Iranian's began actively pursuing the radicallization of Islam. Once we started funding little bush wars all over the world it was only a matter of time before it bit us in the a$$. The Afghans, through Pakistan, were getting BILLIONS from us to fight the Russians. Same thing in South America. Then once the Russians stopped being a threat we left. Funding went to nothing and the populance got pissed that we hung them out to dry. Now they had a reason to hit the US and a lot of training and equipment to do it. If you haven't already, read Charlie Wilson's War, the movie glosses over a lot of it but you'd get the idea, especially towards the end. He knew that cutting all the funding for the Afghan's would get us into trouble. We're out to prove history repeats itself in Iraq and Afghanistan AGAIN.
We're leaving Iraq right when they need us the most. Looking back it has taken at least a decade to get a "stable" government and effective infrastructure in place even in "modern industrialized" nations, such as Japan and Germany after WW2 or the US after the Revolution. We are expected to believe that the Iraqi's or Afghan's can do it in less than five without help?
On the original post:
The Japanese tolerate our presence on the mainland but would much rather see us leave. Okinawa has had enough but there isn't a better place to be. Guam is to far from China/North Korea while Taiwan is WAY to close. PI and South Korea are out as well.
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FQ, To steal from Paths post, not only do "Jefferson and Franklin only represent one side of the Founding Fathers' thinking."
They also represent most of the FAILED ideas of the Founders, I will use their opposition to a standing Navy as just one example.
The Humanist concepts of "Locke, Jefferson, Mill and Franklin" that assume every one is basicly good and will do the "Right" thing if given a choice is the philosophy that led Europe to Fascism and gas chambers .
College is NO PLACE to learn about humanity, nor will you learn by reading the thoughts of others who merely sat around and THOUGHT about it.
If you REALLY want to understand how people interact, move to the worst area in your town, get a job at the local factory that does NOT do drug testing, and watch how your neighbors and co workers interact.
OR, put several packs of wolves with a few females in heat in a pen a little to small, with not quite enough food.
Then you will see how the real world works.
In college, while there may be scum bags and youthful aggression, the process of getting in has already weeded out a major segment of society so it is NOT a representative cross section.