The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Tyler Durden on January 31, 2010, 10:58:00 AM
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http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123187157
DISCUSS!
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1st Amendment, Freedom of worship, Both groups recognize a Supreme Creator, they simply worship through an appreciation of the natural world, instead of closing themselves off from the Creators works in a building.
And dispite what some would have you believe they are NOT all a bunch of pacifist queers, many of the fiercest warriors in history have been nature worshipers such as Attila and Geronimo
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I applaud there tollerance for all religion, I just wish more people had the same attitude. As a druid myself I wish I had access to such facilities in my own community.
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I've actually been to that spot in the early nineties. A friend of mine was a Priest their while I was going through Tech school at Lowry AFB just up the road in Denver. That hill top is just behind the house he lived in. That's a beautiful spot to worship regardless of your religious orientation. Heck just about anywhere you go at the Academy is going to be beautiful! Their was a call out a couple of months ago for enlisted instructor positions at the Academy wish I meet the requirements I'd love to live their!!! ;D
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1st Amendment, Freedom of worship, Both groups recognize a Supreme Creator, they simply worship through an appreciation of the natural world, instead of closing themselves off from the Creators works in a building.
And dispite what some would have you believe they are NOT all a bunch of pacifist queers, many of the fiercest warriors in history have been nature worshipers such as Attila and Geronimo
That was then. And you forgot the Celts and Germans who gave the Greeks and Romans such nightmares.
Dollars to donuts, though, these modern types are going to be mostly a bunch of "pacifist queers", as you so quaintly put it! ;D
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Tombogan wrote:
....fiercest warriors in....
Reading that part makes me giggle. ;D
We are talking about the Air Force here, and my alma mater. This is just my opinion....but the percentage of warriors in the Air Force is really, really small. And even smaller from the Air Force Academy. (and before you get your dander all the way up, GUNS-R-US, I am referring to the CCT's, the PJ's, the TACP's and the fighter/bomber/attack pilots and those aircrews. And maybe some of the SP's...err...SF's...aka sky cops...maybe some HAMMER ACE people if they're still around and these Raven guys. Still a really, really small percentage of the whole Air Force.)
switching gears here a bunch.... let me ask you all this...
The Zoo has a "student" population of about 4,000. Just by the law of averages, some of them are going to be muslim.
A few years back at the University of Michigan, the bathrooms there had to be retrofitted with foot baths for the muslim students who wash their feet before they pray.
Would you all be for footing the US taxpayer bill to get the bathrooms retrofitted with footbaths at the Air Force Academy (then West Point and Annapolis)?
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We are talking about the Air Force here, and my alma mater. This is just my opinion....but the percentage of warriors in the Air Force is really, really small. And even smaller from the Air Force Academy. (and before you get your dander all the way up, GUNS-R-US, I am referring to the CCT's, the PJ's, the TACP's and the fighter/bomber/attack pilots and those aircrews. And maybe some of the SP's...err...SF's...aka sky cops...maybe some HAMMER ACE people if they're still around and these Raven guys. Still a really, really small percentage of the whole Air Force.)
I won't knock what you said here. The majority of the AF is not in the Warrior career fields. We are mostly logistics support for the Warriors. If I could roll the clock back 20 years I'd of gone in to the Marines!
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Tyler posted,
"Reading that part makes me giggle. Grin
We are talking about the Air Force here, and my alma mater. This is just my opinion....but the percentage of warriors in the Air Force is really, really small."
I wasn't going to go there ::) Besides, sometimes it IS the thought that counts ;D
From Tylers post,
"Would you all be for footing the US taxpayer bill to get the bathrooms retrofitted with footbaths at the Air Force Academy"
2 things, first, they are currently our enemies, so NO.
Second, since there is no Mosque there is no reason for them to take their shoes off, so their feet should already be relatively clean, unless of course they are just naturally dirty people, so no need to wash their feet before prayer except to be difficult so again no.
Third, I have been prejudiced against Muslims since 1979, and more so since Oct. of 82 so again f-ck them.
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A few years back at the University of Michigan, the bathrooms there had to be retrofitted with foot baths for the muslim students who wash their feet before they pray.
When I was in the service everyone managed to wash their feet without special foot baths.
I know this is off the wall, I would like to propose Muslims in our military simply wash their feet in the facilities provided.
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When I was in the service everyone managed to wash their feet without special foot baths.
I know this is off the wall, I would like to propose Muslims in our military simply wash their feet in the facilities provided.
In the AF we call them showers!
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In the AF we call them showers!
What a life the AF has =)
Sometimes we had showers, some times it was cold water in our helmets that got our feet clean =)
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What a life the AF has =)
Sometimes we had showers, some times it was cold water in our helmets that got our feet clean =)
;D +10
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What a life the AF has =)
Sometimes we had showers, some times it was cold water in our helmets that got our feet clean =)
That just caused some memories to come flooding back. :)
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I won't knock what you said here. The majority of the AF is not in the Warrior career fields. We are mostly logistics support for the Warriors. If I could roll the clock back 20 years I'd of gone in to the Marines!
Yeah, but you get to sleep in barracks/semi-private rooms almost everywhere you go. ;D My brother was in the AF and was stationed in Iceland. Got to watch the poor grunts bivouac in the snow from the comfort of his room - where he had to crack the window because it was too hot.
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What a life the AF has =)
Sometimes we had showers, some times it was cold water in our helmets that got our feet clean =)
Yeah, but you get to sleep in barracks/semi-private rooms almost everywhere you go. ;D My brother was in the AF and was stationed in Iceland. Got to watch the poor grunts bivouac in the snow from the comfort of his room - where he had to crack the window because it was too hot.
Ya know their is a test to get in the military. The AF is just a little pickier about your score than the others. ::) ;D
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Just remember this, The Air Force GOES to Iceland, (had an Uncle stationed there in the early 50's ).
Except for the Embassy personnel the Marines left in 1941 and haven't been back since ;D
(No Swamps, they don't send Marines places that don't have swamps, that's why they were operating along the Euphrates in Iraq, that's where the mud was ) ;D
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Ya know their is a test to get in the military. The AF is just a little pickier about your score than the others. ::) ;D
So based on this and Tom's observation about swamps, I'm guessing the pivotal question on the ap tests to separate Marine from AF candidates is:
Do you prefer:
A) Bass fishing
b) Ice fishing
c) Fly fishing
d) Fishing for the remote in your climate-controlled room while the guys that answered any of the above are stationed in the swamp/snow/mud/searing heat/all of the previous at once outside your window.
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Pick a flavor at the USAFA. Maybe the peyote eating Sun Dancers will make it over the threshold next.
Our Founders refered to religion in the Army as "denominations of religion" and not the ranks of witchcraft.
"Sir Richard Sutton read a copy of a letter relative to the government of America from a [Crown-appointed] governor in America to the Board of Trade [in Great Britain] showing that. . . . If you ask an American, “Who is his master?” He will tell you he has none – nor any governor but Jesus Christ." This is the heritage of America and making room for Earth-lovers is I think unfortunate. I appreciate their need for fellowship with the like-minded, have at it but it's a mistake to give them a place at the table. Somewhere someone in an Academy office lacked the Giulianis to say "No". You don't give your kids everything they want.... dittos here.
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Yeah, but don't try to put up a nativity scene around Christmas.
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Soooo... back to the topic.............
Dollars to donuts, though, these modern types are going to be mostly a bunch of pacifist queers, as you so quaintly put it! ;D
I have to poke my head in here and say something.....
Uhhmmm~~~ Pacifist queers is a pretty strong term...
Do you actually KNOW anything about the Wiccan and Druid way of worship? Or are you just flipping something out there from the fear of the part of the unknown that you don't know... I'm just curious as to what you actually personally KNOW about this way of belief..
Do you understand that most people who are practitioners of nature-centered spirituality are usually a mix of several types of spiritual beliefs? And you would be very very surprised if you knew the number of "Us" who are not pacifist queers..
((You have a good evening)) ;)
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Like Calithump he's just talking out his Pelosi, not from knowledge.
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I don't know much about the USAF, But I do know my share about Wiccan/Druids as I am one...Alot of people in history had considered themselves Pacifist before someone else came along and p*ss*d them off. One thought all should consider about religions. Most all pale men of european decent came from a Pagan Religion. It wasn't until the Roman Catholics conquered the Pagan Races of Europe and forced Christianity or death on them did white men accept the new religion. Also, On my mother's side I am Native American. So no where in my ancestry was I ever meant to be Christian. Doesn't mean I don't respect other peoples religions. But before you make comments about them, you should learn a little about it first. And like most pacifist, I'm relly easy going until someone ruins my calm...(Don't tread on me)...
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These type of discussions always seem to open a can of worms. With that said it's one thing to have freedom to pray and worship what ever God a person wants. But the line should be drawn there. No feet washing, incense burning, sacred cows, Ouija boards, or other "ceremonies" requiring added equipment to perform. This can get out of control real quick otherwise.
I'm sorry but I have a very large problem with Muslims in general. There has never been a "religion" in modern times that has caused so much death, pain, and controversy, world wide. It's getting worse by the day. It's only a matter of time before we or Israel start shooting in Iran. Why?, one word, Muslims and their eternal hatred for Christians. These people do not believe in live and let live. I get so tired of hearing how "All Muslims aren't bad", yet 99.9% of all terrorists are in fact Muslim. We are at war with these people, and they have zero place in our military. It simply is not worth the risk. We took that risk at Ft. Hood and we all saw what happened. It will happen again, and next time it will be worse.
There are approximately 1.3 BILLION Muslims worldwide. If only 1% of them are radical that equates to 13,000,000 (read 13 MILLION) radical followers of Islam. My guess is that number is far greater. That people, is a very real and dangerous threat that we as a country are foolish to be embracing, simply to provide us with some abstract way of being politically correct. It's going to wind up getting a lot of innocent people killed. Bill T.
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Let me reflect the facts. I was quoting Tom when I used the phrase "pacifist queers" that M'ette quoted. I will go back and put quotes around the phrase.
For the record, I have only known a handful of self-professed druids, and no wiccans that I am aware of. The handful I knew were "pacifist queers", real new agey types. Not the "queer" part in the sense of homosexual, but "queer" as in just not right, really odd. And definitely pacifist. YMMV
Personally, I was always drawn to the Japanese Shinto spirituality, and no one ever accused the Japanese samurai of being "pacifist queers". Of course, they also had Zen Buddhism to help with the warrior stuff! ;D
Even after my salvation, Shinto holds a special place in my heart. Now, though, I pay homage to my Lord and Savior for the natural creation rather than a gang of nymphs, nyriads, sprites, goblins (hob or otherwise) or gnomes. Since He commands that I have no other Gods before Him, how can I do otherwise?
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When I was in high school in denver back in, oh my god, 2002, I had several friends who were wiccan. On a personal the ones I knew were nice and generally respectable people, but, even during 9/11 (and I know it because we all sat in class watching it) pissed me off with their indifference to the events. Given that age came into play but that left a general distrust for the culture surrounding the religion. Lastly, why does it seem that every year anything that comes along claiming to be a religion just falls into the ever growing "appease them" bucket? Next we will be recognizing the church of Al Gore and the whole green movement will get everything it wants on the grounds of religious appeasement.
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To the best of my knowledge I know only one wiccan, and this person could HARDLY be described as a "pacifist queer", nor either of the two terms on it's own. You might be surprised by those among us who are wiccan. For the most part they don't seem to advertise the fact.
Back to the original topic, I agree with my running mate.....1st Amendment covers it....end of discussion. Everything beyond that is personal opinion, or simple ignorance.
As far as a comparison between wiccans and muslims..........last I knew, wiccans weren't trying to kill us.
YMMV
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Yeah, but you get to sleep in barracks/semi-private rooms almost everywhere you go. ;D My brother was in the AF and was stationed in Iceland. Got to watch the poor grunts bivouac in the snow from the comfort of his room - where he had to crack the window because it was too hot.
Just remember this, The Air Force GOES to Iceland, (had an Uncle stationed there in the early 50's ).
Except for the Embassy personnel the Marines left in 1941 and haven't been back since ;D
(No Swamps, they don't send Marines places that don't have swamps, that's why they were operating along the Euphrates in Iraq, that's where the mud was ) ;D
I was stationed in Iceland....there WERE Marines there (though not many) and they had a barracks just like mine. Not once in my 364 days on the "Rock" did they have to live outside! Humans don't do well in 50-60 below zero.... It was a US Naval Air Station since 1961, not an Air Force facility.
It is now closed and returned back to the Icelandic people.
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Glad to see it! Wiccan priest right here on DRTV! Nope, not a pacifist not even queer (but Mrs. Addict might well say I am a bit goofy :D).
For those unfamiliar with the religion there is quite a big difference between a fluffy bunny new ager and a Traditional pagan. Frankly dont see how my faith wouldnt fit well in the military.
Be Well,
Addict
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Glad to see the board is a bit more religiouslly diverse than I thought. I thought folks were giving me a hard time becase I'm a theologically liberal Christian. As I've said before, as long as you support the 2a and the Constitution, the rest of it isn't my business.
FQ13
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
No problem here.....
I'm sure, being of Celtic and Norse bloodlines, there is a Druid in my ancestry anyway... ;)
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Guns and the occult: that's an interesting combination...
And on another front, all of this talk about Druids and Wiccans got me thinking. I apologize in advance for the following, but I just had to post it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpaG-L0zTJ4
;D ;D ;D ;D
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There has never been a "religion" in modern times that has caused so much death, pain, and controversy, world wide.
Bill T.
You have got to be kidding...Right? I mean you aren't really insinuating that any religion does not have blood on its hands... Are you?
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Well...whoops...there goes my thread..... ???
My short Cliff's Notes version of an answer for you, JdePietro, is this: Where are all of the Christian suicide bombers?
I'm pretty sure NO one here is going to argue that no religion even Christianity does NOT have blood on its hands. Quite the opposite, actually.
Like a lot of other things in the world, things taken in excess or to the extreme usually don't turn out all that well.
anywhooo...back to my original question...
Would you want your hard earned tax payer's dollars going to revamp all the bathrooms at the USAF Academy, West Point, and Anapollis to put in foot baths for muslim cadets?
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anywhooo...back to my original question...
Would you want your hard earned tax payer's dollars going to revamp all the bathrooms at the USAF Academy, West Point, and Anapollis to put in foot baths for muslim cadets?
My tax dollars? No. BUt if I were a cadet there, I'd think it was better than them washing their feet in the sinks.....
The 2 or 3 folks I've known who claimed to be Wiccan weren't pacifists; just the opposite, and seemed to be really touchy about religious discussion in general. Haven't personally known anyone who claimed to be a druid....
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Well...whoops...there goes my thread..... ???
My short Cliff's Notes version of an answer for you, JdePietro, is this: Where are all of the Christian suicide bombers?
I'm pretty sure NO one here is going to argue that no religion even Christianity does NOT have blood on its hands. Quite the opposite, actually.
Like a lot of other things in the world, things taken in excess or to the extreme usually don't turn out all that well.
anywhooo...back to my original question...
Would you want your hard earned tax payer's dollars going to revamp all the bathrooms at the USAF Academy, West Point, and Anapollis to put in foot baths for muslim cadets?
Nope, but they can provide a a small basin at the non denominational chapel to do so. TAB could probably put one in for $1k. Failing that, a sponge would work. Not like they'll have that bath in the field anyway. But they should be able to hold Friday prayers and have a Muslim chaplain even if he is a volunteer. Like wise, giving the druids a patch of lawn costs nothing. The military is under zero obligation to provide ANY religious facilities to ANY religion. They just can't discriminate between them. Remember, the USAF Academy got its tail in crack a few years ago because Evangelical cadets were bullying others. It got buried under the concurrent sexual harrassment scandal, but basically, main line protestants, jews, Catholics and atheists all raised holy hell about it. Dobson got W to pave a lot of it over, but a fair number of chaplains and others got let go. That's why they are being so accomadating now. The 1A has it right. No official religion and pray how and to whatever you want. Just show up for work on time.
FQ13
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You have got to be kidding...Right? I mean you aren't really insinuating that any religion does not have blood on its hands... Are you?
Not at all, Even Buddhists have troops (Darn good ones, with a little help from the CIA it took China several years to take over Tibet )
but it DOES seem that the "People of the Book" (Jews, Christians and Muslims ) are the only ones who shed blood OVER religion.
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Well, it only took 6 days for the initial story to break through to the national news:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584500,00.html
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FW wrote:
Remember, the USAF Academy got its tail in crack a few years ago because Evangelical cadets were bullying others. It got buried under the concurrent sexual harrassment scandal, but basically, main line protestants, jews, Catholics and atheists all raised holy hell about it. Dobson got W to pave a lot of it over, but a fair number of chaplains and others got let go. That's why they are being so accomadating now. The 1A has it right. No official religion and pray how and to whatever you want. Just show up for work on time.
Do I remember...do I remember? Jeesh... ::) How could I forget? Thanks Mikey Weinstein.
I was never a victim of Christian bully'ing while I was there.
So, I don't know what made the place so Bible thumper-ish in less than 10 years since I left there. ??? Weird. ???
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FW wrote:
Do I remember...do I remember? Jeesh... ::) How could I forget? Thanks Mikey Weinstein.
I was never a victim of Christian bully'ing while I was there.
So, I don't know what made the place so Bible thumper-ish in less than 10 years since I left there. ??? Weird. ???
10 years is a life time in a college. 3 generations of students and two cycles of profs. All it takes is a poisonous cycle of "well meaning" ideologues on the faculty side and some students to take their cues and you have a problem. Fundamentalist, PC, socialist, liberal, conservative, green, or what have you, and if you have an easily cowed admin., who treats CYA as Holy Writ, combined with influential alums backing the source of the problem and you have a classic Charlie Fox Trot. I've seen it happen, and heard way too many war stories to doubt this. Add in the fact that the Springs is known as the "Riyadh of the Rockies" with lots of well connected political evangelical ministeries (think the anti-Berkley, and just as useful on their best day) and you have issues. The academy had a problem, and the admin played Sgt. Schultz. I'm not dinging evangelicals, as most of these war stories are about PC nonsense, but nonsense is nonsense. The Admin let an atmosphere of "pray my way or you don't belong here" either exist or perceive to exist. Either way, its equally bad for morale and equally a failure of leadership. The result, we now have the Wiccan grove or whatever. Common sense is restored. My opinion? Give all cadets one day a week off. Day to be chosen by random draw. Let them observe (or not observe) that as the sabbath, and go into town to seek fellowship with other believers. Any church, mosque or synagogue worth its salt will arrange a service. And let those who want to drink beer or sleep in do that. Problem solved, crisis over, cost to the tax payer, zero. No state religion, worship what you will, just do it on your own time. Just my .02.
FQ13 who doesn't think there is anything holy about Sunday. Tuesday will do just fine as long as I get to go to church and take Communion.
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slight thread drift ahead...
That scene with Robert Redford in the movie Lions for Lambs keeps popping into my head.
It's where Robert Redford talks to his two soon to be enlisted students and remarks how the WWI German shoulders used to write poems about how courageous their British enemies were. The Germans were quoted as saying, "how can they have so many lions led by lambs."
Huh!
Just something I have been thinking about lately. ???
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FW wrote:
Do I remember...do I remember? Jeesh... ::) How could I forget? Thanks Mikey Weinstein.
I was never a victim of Christian bully'ing while I was there.
So, I don't know what made the place so Bible thumper-ish in less than 10 years since I left there. ??? Weird. ???
I would assume it was one of those stories that was "slightly" overblown at the time. It's the way to handle all things foundational to America. In fact, it's the way fascists/progressives have worked since the 1800's.
One of my eldest son's best friends is in the AF Academy right now. I'll have to see what kind of facts are really out there on this. Lots of opinions here based upon MSM "facts". Being a bit sarcastic, you would have thought that if it were as bad as reported on the news media about Bible thumping you would have noticed that, eh? I'll go with your observation over the news media...today, tomorrow, anyday...etc.
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You have got to be kidding...Right? I mean you aren't really insinuating that any religion does not have blood on its hands... Are you?
In modern times Muslims have the most.
Here is a sampling of their Koran (Quran) in an English translation.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...terrorism.html
Quote:
# 3:151 "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve."
4:74 "Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
# 4:76 "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil."
# 4:91 "Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant."
# 8:12 "I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger."
# 21:97 "Behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve!"
# 33:35-36 "Allah repulsed the disbelievers. ... He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
# 59:2 "He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture who disbelieved to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!"
# 59:13 "Ye are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah
And here is a site that is interesting: http://islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php I'll go way out on a limb here and say I doubt you could find matching verses in the Bible. I regard any and all of these people as a threat. I challenge anyone to give evidence as to why we should trust, support, defend, anyone with beliefs like these. Where is the upside? These people are nuts. Bill T.
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I would assume it was one of those stories that was "slightly" overblown at the time. It's the way to handle all things foundational to America. In fact, it's the way fascists/progressives have worked since the 1800's.
One of my eldest son's best friends is in the AF Academy right now. I'll have to see what kind of facts are really out there on this. Lots of opinions here based upon MSM "facts". Being a bit sarcastic, you would have thought that if it were as bad as reported on the news media about Bible thumping you would have noticed that, eh? I'll go with your observation over the news media...today, tomorrow, anyday...etc.
Rastus
As someone who has been there and seen that as a prof, let me tell you the truth. These things happen. They just take few bad apples in a department. They take about a semester and a half for a student or students to get brave enough to make a complaint. Then the faculty/admin tries to ignore it, a second complaint, or third or fifth happens, an "exhaustive" investigation is launched, eating up an additional 3-4 months and corrective action is taken. Time elapsed? About 18 months, thing is, that's half a student's college career. Bureacracy moves slowly. That's usually a good thing, but sometimes moving slowly is bad. Student culture can be shaped for a decade (right wing or PC, take your pick) by what happens in those 18 months. I have no bone to pick with evangelicals or the Academy, its generally the PC crowd that is to blame, but its a whole lot quicker to make a mess than it is to clean it up, particularly when outside observers see it through a political lense. I'm not dinging you here over politics or theology. Its just to say that the ideology is the least important thing in the picture. Its about a certain kind of unethical egotistical asshat that thinks its their right/misson to convert immpressionable students to take their POV. I detest these people. They are a blight on my profession as much as those who trade grades for sex. I also don't think too highly of those who cast aspersions on their opponents and make excuses for their allies. An asshat is an asshat, I don't care who you are. The correct solution is a free rail ride off campus, the long way around. My job is hard enough without Monday morning QBing from the activists. They can all KMA. If I'm wrong tell me why.
FQ13 Who wants profs to be honest about what they belive and why, but thinks that anyone who is so insecure that they need to create a coterie of 19 year old followers and punish those who disagree, needs to be introduced to some tar and feathers
PS to those who read an earlier version of this post, I missed a key line in rastus' post. I accused him of looking to non "MSM" sourcs, when he as going to talk to a cadet. My bad. Mea culpa Rastus.
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In modern times Muslims have the most.
And here is a site that is interesting: http://islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php I'll go way out on a limb here and say I doubt you could find matching verses in the Bible. I regard any and all of these people as a threat. I challenge anyone to give evidence as to why we should trust, support, defend, anyone with beliefs like these. Where is the upside? These people are nuts. Bill T.
As to your first point, its no limb at all, you're playing Will E. Coyote. There are points in the Old Testament that call for genocide. The Ammalekites (sp)? Kill them all. The city of Jericho ditto. The book of Exodus is not full of fluffy bunnies. Thing is, we got over it. Them, not so much.
FQ13
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@ FQ... just an FYI...
When I was serving my sentence at Mama Blue's Aluminum Womb, our instructors were captains and majors. IIRC, a lot of them had PhD's. I'm sure they all had to have had a master's, too.
I remember one female Captain who like had just pinned on Captain, so she was just four years out from the Academy. She already had her Master's and PhD, at age 26 or 27 ...or so. So they are some real fast burners who come back to teach.
There might be some civilians there, who teach, but probably just a handful.
All of the department heads were full bird colonels. The Dean is a one star.
So, I am at a loss as to how this "Bible-gate" incident or incidents came to pass. ???
I'm poking around and asking questions to my fellow grads in those year groups, so maybe then I could get the straight skinny from them.
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@ FQ... just an FYI...
When I was serving my sentence at Mama Blue's Aluminum Womb, our instructors were captains and majors. IIRC, a lot of them had PhD's. I'm sure they all had to have had a master's, too.
I remember one female Captain who like had just pinned on Captain, so she was just four years out from the Academy. She already had her Master's and PhD, at age 26 or 27 ...or so. So they are some real fast burners who come back to teach.
There might be some civilians there, who teach, but probably just a handful.
All of the department heads were full bird colonels. The Dean is a one star.
So, I am at a loss as to how this "Bible-gate" incident or incidents came to pass. ???
I'm poking around and asking questions to my fellow grads in those year groups, so maybe then I could get the straight skinny from them.
I would love to hear it. Frankly, a miltary academy, particulary AF is a whole different beast than what I am used to dealing with, as its so science heavy. There are civvies, but generally in the social sciences. The culture differs too. One thing that stays the same, or maybe intensifies is a don't rock the boat mentallity. If you know its a two or four year post, you're less likely (I would think) to make a stand, than if you wanted to retire there. You know the place far better than me. I can only report on one liberal arts college and a couple of state universities, coupled with war stories over drinks with my friends. Even here, a lot of the wars were over methodology, not overt (though certainley covert) ideology. It effected who got hired, fired, promoted and which students were admitted and funded. Again. 2 years worth of WTF can take a decade to undo.
FQ13 Anything you have to offer would be useful.
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Oh, yeah, as opposed to civilian schools, the Zoo did not have tenure.
I'm sure there was an underlying force there to get Captains and Majors back out to the real Air Force to do more "operational" work....versus having them there from junior captain to Lt.Col.
Consequently, the instructors weren't protected by tenure and could NOT take on this "I can do NO wrong" mentality and try to push an agenda.
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Oh, yeah, as opposed to civilian schools, the Zoo did not have tenure.
I'm sure there was an underlying force there to get Captains and Majors back out to the real Air Force to do more "operational" work....versus having them there from junior captain to Lt.Col.
Consequently, the instructors weren't protected by tenure and could NOT take on this "I can do NO wrong" mentality and try to push an agenda.
Flip side of that is, they can't say "You're full of shit sir, get off the dime or I'm calling you on it". :-\
FQ13
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There are points in the Old Testament that call for genocide.
And who follows it today? Forget thousands of years ago. Don't try and compare this to the Crusades, or the Inquisition. Show me one other "religion" TODAY that has suicide bombers, and uses them? What religion tells kids to go throw rocks at tanks. As I said, these people are nuts. Anyone who TODAY believes in that crap is a direct threat. The only resolve we have is to kill them, simply because that is the very thing they want to do to us. Every single one of us. Bill T.
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As far as the original post:
I don't mind it at all. The military in general has always had religious leadership from multiple religions. For example the Navy has seperate Chaplain Corps devices for Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim. While I was on Independence a friend of mine was authorized by the command to lead Wiccan services using the ship's chapel and was seriously considering pursuing a commision in the Chaplain Corps as a Wiccan. Yes, he could be a little "queer"/weird but was a good guy and more than happy to get into it if the need arose. There were Jewish, Muslim and Christian religious programs/services and it was not a big deal to add the Wiccan service in.
I see the whole thing as a non-issue. It has nothing to do with appeasement or being PC and all about the First Amendment and the fact that a few students of that religion took the time to ask the leadership for what amounts to a club (no matter what religion, it boils down to a group of like minded people, a club) and space to practice their beliefs
On the other hand the AF in recent years is it's own worst enemy. Every major program has been in the news for fraud, waste, and abuse. Then the regular reports of failures of leadership. In general leadership, in all the Services, has declined and more officers are worried about budget and CYA then in fighting capability. The Navy has fired at least a dozen Skippers and XOs in the last year. Most were fired for fraternization or "lack of confidence in the ability to lead." A cruiser Skipper was just fired for cruelty to the crew.
Tyler: I'm sure that you had good instructors but I would be hard pressed to expect a lot of military bearing and leadership/operational experience from a O-4 four years out of Academy that spent at least half of that time back in school for a Masters. Maybe that is the problem, more and more of the Service officers TEACHING people to become officers have lost sight of operational reality. If that is the case the next few years should see marked improvement as more and more combat veterans become eligible to return to the Academies as instructors. Even Navy OCS has started to withdraw the Marine DIs so OCS and Academy students are being taught how to be officers by other sudents one or two years ahead of them. No real military experience and no undersatnding of how the military really works. Same can be said for the Reserves in some cases. I had a non-prior Service guy that was put in a leadership role because his civilian job was equievilant to a supply supervisor. Even after a year of training, on the weekends and two weeks of "Boot Camp," this guy STILL called the XO (0-5) "Chief" (E-7) and could not follow simple directions. Luckily he was popped on a drug sweep and left.
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And who follows it today? Forget thousands of years ago. Don't try and compare this to the Crusades, or the Inquisition. Show me one other "religion" TODAY that has suicide bombers, and uses them? What religion tells kids to go throw rocks at tanks. As I said, these people are nuts. Anyone who TODAY believes in that crap is a direct threat. The only resolve we have is to kill them, simply because that is the very thing they want to do to us. Every single one of us. Bill T.
I was just responding to your point about the Bible having no such passages. It does. Both were written many, many centuries ago. We have progressed, they haven't.
FQ13
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BillT I disagree...
How can you pull up parts of their holy book as if you have the smoking barrel and then ignore the parts of your own? How can you claim any rightieusness by ignoring a very recent history of atrocities? In the last 250 years your religion has caused more human suffering than I can imagine. The Native American population can attest heavily to Christian tollerance, the Aztecs, the Salam Witch trials remember reading about those?
I tend to believe the only realization is self realization so I'm gonna stop and just agree to disagree, call me a "Pacifist Queer" thats fine, but as I had stated in my first post. I wish the world has as much religious tollorance...
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BillT I disagree...
How can you pull up parts of their holy book as if you have the smoking barrel and then ignore the parts of your own? How can you claim any rightieusness by ignoring a very recent history of atrocities? In the last 250 years your religion has caused more human suffering than I can imagine. The Native American population can attest heavily to Christian tollerance, the Aztecs, the Salam Witch trials remember reading about those?
I tend to believe the only realization is self realization so I'm gonna stop and just agree to disagree, call me a "Pacifist Queer" thats fine, but as I had stated in my first post. I wish the world has as much religious tollorance...
Like I said before, fighting OVER religion seems to be confined to "people of The Book" Every one else in history seems to have fought for Defense, gain, or revenge.
Also, don't go throwing the crusades into that, Religion was only an excuse to grab off part of the richest trade routes in the world.
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^^^ That's probably only because they hadn't figured how to pipe crude oil through that region. ;) :P