The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on February 01, 2010, 11:06:32 AM
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http://www.neworleansgungrab.com/
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It not only CAN, IT DID.
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No it cant, virtually every state made it illegal for any type of confiscation during an emergency or catastrophic event.
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perhaps the old lady with a .38 that was literally "roughed up" that went viral on youtube, will refresh your memory. Or the N.O. Police Chief saying all guns will be out of the city except by Police and NG.
Or the court case they just lost last year, by the city, and the guns that were confiscated "mysteriously disappeared"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?id=4205
New Orleans Mayor Finally Admits Illegal Gun Confiscation, Settles With NRA
Friday, October 10, 2008
After a three-year legal battle over the unconstitutional confiscation of lawfully owned firearms during Hurricane Katrina, this week, the City of New Orleans agreed to settle a lawsuit initiated by NRA. A permanent injunction has been issued against the city, Mayor Ray Nagin, and current Police Chief Warren Riley. The Second Amendment Foundation assisted NRA in the legal battle against Mayor Ray Nagin and the City of New Orleans.
"This is an important victory for the citizens of New Orleans and the Second Amendment," said Wayne LaPierre, NRA's executive vice president. "We fought for three long years in a fundamental legal challenge to assert the inherent self-defense rights for law-abiding citizens, knowing the Constitution would prevail. Today it has prevailed and freedom has won."
Judge Carl J. Barbier presided over the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana. Judge Barbier signed the permanent injuncation against the City of New Orleans. The city admitted the firearm confiscations carried out by Nagin and Riley were unconstitutional and illegal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tbp1hERZjI&feature=related
It not only CAN, IT DID.
AND IT DAMN SURE WON"T HAPPEN AGAIN!!!!!!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8
I just threw up in my mouth
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perhaps the old lady with a .38 that was literally "roughed up" that went viral on youtube, will refresh your memory. Or the N.O. Police Chief saying all guns will be out of the city except by Police and NG.
Or the court case they just lost last year, by the city, and the guns that were confiscated "mysteriously disappeared"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?id=4205
New Orleans Mayor Finally Admits Illegal Gun Confiscation, Settles With NRA
Friday, October 10, 2008
After a three-year legal battle over the unconstitutional confiscation of lawfully owned firearms during Hurricane Katrina, this week, the City of New Orleans agreed to settle a lawsuit initiated by NRA. A permanent injunction has been issued against the city, Mayor Ray Nagin, and current Police Chief Warren Riley. The Second Amendment Foundation assisted NRA in the legal battle against Mayor Ray Nagin and the City of New Orleans.
"This is an important victory for the citizens of New Orleans and the Second Amendment," said Wayne LaPierre, NRA's executive vice president. "We fought for three long years in a fundamental legal challenge to assert the inherent self-defense rights for law-abiding citizens, knowing the Constitution would prevail. Today it has prevailed and freedom has won."
Judge Carl J. Barbier presided over the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana. Judge Barbier signed the permanent injuncation against the City of New Orleans. The city admitted the firearm confiscations carried out by Nagin and Riley were unconstitutional and illegal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tbp1hERZjI&feature=related
AND IT DAMN SURE WON"T HAPPEN AGAIN!!!!!!
The hell it won't.
It already did in that town ( Greenville ? ) in Kansas that had the hurricane a year or 2 ago.
It CAN happen, and it WILL happen until citizens get the nads to MAKE it stop.
But most citizens are to lazy and cowardly to have principles, it might make them miss the latest episode of "Lost"
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No it cant, virtually every state made it illegal for any type of confiscation during an emergency or catastrophic event.
Well I know they passed it here in California and the Terminator signed it, but I sure wouldn't put it passed them to try it when the San Andreas acts up.
Really, wouldn't we all say that it was illegal before Katrina too? I mean even if the only laws that you knew were the Bill of Rights.
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Really, wouldn't we all say that it was illegal before Katrina too? I mean even if the only laws that you knew were the Bill of Rights.
Bingo!
Not to mention there were no warrents that allowed them to go into those homes.
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The hell it won't.
It already did in that town ( Greenville ? ) in Kansas that had the hurricane a year or 2 ago.
It CAN happen, and it WILL happen until citizens get the nads to MAKE it stop.
But most citizens are to lazy and cowardly to have principles, it might make them miss the latest episode of "Lost"
I'm with Tom on this one. The reality is that a law can only protect you after an event happens. Laws do NOT prevent things from happening. People who don't care about the law go ahead and do the unlawful act and let it get sorted out after-the-fact.
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The hell it won't.
It already did in that town ( Greenville ? ) in Kansas that had the hurricane a year or 2 ago.
It CAN happen, and it WILL happen until citizens get the nads to MAKE it stop.
But most citizens are to lazy and cowardly to have principles, it might make them miss the latest episode of "Lost"
It was Greensburg KS and it was a tornado that flattened pretty much the entire town.
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As I watched that video from 2005, I was thinking what if they came to my door and demanded I leave and/or give up my guns....what would I do?.....I'm afraid I would be a martyr for my beliefs because there is no f'ing way I'm giving them my guns. I know the feds read this blog and I stand by what I write here. I know they will have a body bag for me but they will probably need a few extra for them too...
No bravado or B.S. here but I'm just saying what's in my heart on this one....
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Maybe it's state or geographical, or something. I met National Guard troops in coastal NC wearing a very visible side arm, right after Hurricane Fran, they were only interested in our well being, and if we had provisions, they even gave us MRE's. Told us help is coming, and it might be a couple more days to get the roads bulldozed "covered in sand", and power restored.
They wished us well, and we were.
Now that I'm back in S. Fl, I'm with FullAuto. You can't have them, I'm fine, please leave my property. If it escalates from there, they started it.
I am protecting myself and my property. Please help those who really need it.
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Maybe it's state or geographical, or something. I met National Guard troops in coastal NC wearing a very visible side arm, right after Hurricane Fran, they were only interested in our well being, and if we had provisions, they even gave us MRE's. Told us help is coming, and it might be a couple more days to get the roads bulldozed "covered in sand", and power restored.
They wished us well, and we were.
Now that I'm back in S. Fl, I'm with FullAuto. You can't have them, I'm fine, please leave my property. If it escalates from there, they started it.
I am protecting myself and my property. Please help those who really need it.
And that is how it is supposed to operate here in America.
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In theory, I agree. Reality, even if you "win" you'll be doing life at best. Forcing you to leave is Constitutionally ok. Clearing an area to prevent looting, or preventing someone from risking their life to rescue your stubborn ass are legally valid reasons to forcibly evacuate you. Forcing you to turn over firearms isn't legally valid. Still, the only legal excuse to kill someone for civilians is in defense of life, not property, and certainley not legal POVs. This is doubly true if you are shooting cops (even if they did have it coming).
"Why did you shoot the officer"?
"He tried to take my gun in violation of my 2A rights".
"Why didn't you comply and sue later"?
"Because I stand foursquare for the 2A".
You'll be on death row faster than you can say dumbass. The only justifiable reason you could offer is if there was a clear and present danger that complying with an illegal order would mean an immanent and proveable danger to your life. That would give you a fighting chance with the right jury (which you won't get). Otherwise, you're screwed. Giving up the gun MAY endanger you. Not giving it up sure as hell will. Plus giving up the one or two visible ones peacefully might prevent them from frisking you or searching your bag for the BUGS. ;D
FQ13
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FQ, you are as usual on this type of subject, WRONG.
Every hear of Harry Truman ?
Not that one, the old guy who refused to leave his cabin on Mount St. Helens.
The fact is that there is no legal mechanism that allows the Govt. to FORCE any one to evacuate.
As to shooting the Officer, 2A never enters into it, You were resisting a robbery by an armed assailant operating under color of the law. To put it another way, you were resisting the theft of your property by an armed intruder .
Then of course theres always "Shoot, shovel, Shut up ".
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FQ, you are as usual on this type of subject, WRONG.
Every hear of Harry Truman ?
Not that one, the old guy who refused to leave his cabin on Mount St. Helens.
The fact is that there is no legal mechanism that allows the Govt. to FORCE any one to evacuate.
As to shooting the Officer, 2A never enters into it, You were resisting a robbery by an armed assailant operating under color of the law. To put it another way, you were resisting the theft of your property by an armed intruder .
Then of course theres always "Shoot, shovel, Shut up ".
your last point is the only one that is correct. Do what you will, but understand that you will have zero legal defence. My advice? Give up what's visible or hope they never find the bodies or a witness. Otherwise, you are screwed.
FQ13
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That's the difference between a "moderate", and the men who built this country, you have ideas that vanish in the face of authority, legitimate or not . They on the other hand stood by PRINCIPLES and damn the consequences.
You seem like a nice enough guy, but you have been in Academe to long. You would not make a pimple on Lew Armistead's azz.
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That's the difference between a "moderate", and the men who built this country, you have ideas that vanish in the face of authority, legitimate or not . They on the other hand stood by PRINCIPLES and damn the consequences.
You seem like a nice enough guy, but you have been in Academe to long. You would not make a pimple on Lew Armistead's azz.
On the contrary Tom. A smart man picks his fights wisely. Alone with cops pointing guns, you lose, and die, for what? Pride? Better to give them what they can see and move on with the BUGs to fight another day. The definition of a fool is to fight on his enemy's terms and play by his enemy's rules just to satisfy his ego. Its not about balls, but brains. Live to fight another day. That way you are still fighting, rather than laying dead hoping someone will write a song about you. (but maybe that's just the Army vs. the Marines) ;D
FQ13 who is an unapologetic sneaky sob
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Remember what Zapata said, It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. You should skip the ammo and buy knee pads because that is not being sneaky it is merely a justification for surrender.
But maybe that's why the Marines had to evacuate the Armies wounded from Chosin Resevior (in the Armies abandoned trucks ) and walk patrols in front of the Armies lines.
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Remember what Zapata said, It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. You should skip the ammo and buy knee pads because that is not being sneaky it is merely a justification for surrender.
But maybe that's why the Marines had to evacuate the Armies wounded from Chosin Resevior (in the Armies abandoned trucks ) and walk patrols in front of the Armies lines.
I think the difference between us boils down to this. You seem to be advocating dieing for a principle, where I am advocating fighting for one. You need to be alive to fight. Plus, stepping back from the political rhetoric, lets look at things objectively. The gun is a tool, just like any other. If it helps you survive, keep it. If it gets in the way, sh*tcan it. Nothing sacred about a gun, anymore than a tarp or an e-tool. If having a gun helps to keep you alive, fight for it. If dropping it down a storm drain helps, do that instead. Lets drop the rhetoric and look at things pragmatically. I didn't buy my guns to make a suicide pact. I bought them the same way I bought my canoe, tent, back pack and bug spray. Tools. Nothing less, nothing more.
FQ13
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I think the difference between us boils down to this. You seem to be advocating dieing for a principle, where I am advocating fighting for one. You need to be alive to fight. Plus, stepping back from the political rhetoric, lets look at things objectively. The gun is a tool, just like any other. If it helps you survive, keep it. If it gets in the way, sh*tcan it. [size=2[]0pt]Nothing sacred about a gun, anymore than a tarp or an e-tool.[/size] If having a gun helps to keep you alive, fight for it. If dropping it down a storm drain helps, do that instead. Lets drop the rhetoric and look at things pragmatically. I didn't buy my guns to make a suicide pact. I bought them the same way I bought my canoe, tent, back pack and bug spray. Tools. Nothing less, nothing more.
FQ13
That's right, and I'm not going to let some coc$suc%er steal those from me either.
The difference between you and I is that you have been protected in schools all your life and I have been in the real world, And playing army in college doesn't count for much more than Cub Scouts does. In the REAL World only a victim goes out front to see who all those people are.
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"Nothing Less, Nothing More?"
Last time I checked the Constitution was irrelevant when it came to a hammer, screw-gun, stapler.....
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
(Tench Coxe in ‘Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym ‘A Pennsylvanian' in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
Daniel Webster
"There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face."
Krusty the Clown
"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..."
Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, 1798 - Sam Adams
C'mon FQ, at some point this has to make sense. Lose the " I fought the law, and the law won" mindset. At this point, precedent has been set. New Orleans admitted the unconstitutionality of gun seizures. How about if it was your grandmother, well provisioned, prepared, not flooded, and had an old .38. Than some jack booted thug bangs on the door, throws her down, confiscates the old pistol, than has her house ransacked by corrupt N.O. city workers, after the cops leave, and she goes to jail. Only to have her charges dismissed and her old .38 just "disappear".... I call BS on that....
Katrina (in N.O.) was and never will be America. This is stuff that happens in countries we bitch about on other threads, and Nazi stormtroopers "rounding up Jews" in the early 40's. Stalin and Saddam making your Uncle "disappear",.... You didn't hear about this crap in Mississippi, or Texas.
I am not a military vet, but I am a hurricane vet, several times over. Castle Doctrine applies, and all LEO's, and NG troops I talked to before, during, and after, all wished me well, warned me of the isolation and danger for several days, and recommended being armed.
Rant off.
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"Nothing Less, Nothing More?"
Last time I checked the Constitution was irrelevant when it came to a hammer, screw-gun, stapler.....
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
(Tench Coxe in ‘Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym ‘A Pennsylvanian' in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
Daniel Webster
"There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face."
Krusty the Clown
"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..."
Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, 1798 - Sam Adams
C'mon FQ, at some point this has to make sense. Lose the " I fought the law, and the law won" mindset. At this point, precedent has been set. New Orleans admitted the unconstitutionality of gun seizures. How about if it was your grandmother, well provisioned, prepared, not flooded, and had an old .38. Than some jack booted thug bangs on the door, throws her down, confiscates the old pistol, than has her house ransacked by corrupt N.O. city workers, after the cops leave, and she goes to jail. Only to have her charges dismissed and her old .38 just "disappear".... I call BS on that....
Katrina (in N.O.) was and never will be America. This is stuff that happens in countries we bitch about on other threads, and Nazi stormtroopers "rounding up Jews" in the early 40's. Stalin and Saddam making your Uncle "disappear",.... You didn't hear about this crap in Mississippi, or Texas.
I am not a military vet, but I am a hurricane vet, several times over. Castle Doctrine applies, and all LEO's, and NG troops I talked to before, during, and after, all wished me well, warned me of the isolation and danger for several days, and recommended being armed.
Rant off.
Rant as much as you want because I don't disagree with a word you'e said. My point was simply that shooting cops to keep your gun is a bad idea. This doesn't strike me as a particularly radical POV. You and I could both find ourselves in Katrina come July. The thing is, if the nice armed man with the body armor, radio, air support, and AR wants my gun, and if I know he'll go away if I give it to him, its his. Hopefully, if I obey cheerfully ( >:( >:( >:(, oh sorry, ;D ;D ;D) he won't search the house or my person for more guns. The point is, I have the gun to get me OUT of life threatening touble post hurricane, not into it.
FQ13
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There were Mandatory Evacuations for all NON-homeowners on Carolina Beach, the short-term renters, the hotels/motels, the weekend warriors, all had to go. This was verified with a copy of your power bill, and locals were issued a resident sticker for their vehicle.
All that said, and the looooonnnnnng time it takes for a hurricane to make landfall, the Carolina Beach cops drove the streets, "urged" us to leave, but could not enforce the property rights of homeowners. It was done to let them know when the winds are 125 sustained, and the water is rising, you can't call 911 and say "OK, My bad, come and get me".... They are not coming.
What happened AFTER Katrina, was the crime. The Chief of Police, under the complete Capt. Clueless Mayor Nagen, allowed this to happen. There was no need to run these folks out and "seize" their firearms.
I'll quote Jerry Garcia/Grateful Dead:
If you got a warrant, I guess your gonna come in...
.(probable cause etc,.... comes into play). State of Emergencies can be taken advantage of by gov't (state, local, etc,..) but the Constitutional Rights of Citizens supercedes it, on their own property.
HOWEVER, if you don't have warrant, and I'm on MY property, I will politely and respectfully tell them to get off of it. We saw the video of the old man on his flooded porch in the mid west tell the Deputy Sheriff to do just that. "In words I can't post"
If a "LEO, NG" bangs on my door, I will be polite, if he tells me to leave my home, I will remain polite and say no, I don;t have to tell him I have firearms, and am under no obligation to provide him any info, except my name, and we do not need medical or emergency personnel.
That's it. ...Hopefully this upcoming hurricane season, will be like last years. Than I'll thank Al Gore for the "climate change"... ;)