The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: 1stCivDiv on February 01, 2010, 08:10:19 PM
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I have been loading like this for several years and wanted to get some feedback. Currently, I carry an XD40 Service and load the magazines alternating FMJ and JHP. The premise being that I will not have the luxury of knowing whether I will have to take a straight up/no cover shot at an attacker or if I might have to shoot through a windshield or other cover to stop a fight.
Comments...
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I can't see any advantage to that considering the type of ammo available commercially. The winchester FBI loads which I believe is marketed currently as the bonded PDX1 (someone correct me if I am wrong) is designed to pass FBI barrier penetration and expansion tests. Too much info to post here but you can do some googling and read about the FBI protocols. This ammo would certainly meet your desires for barrier penetration without using an alternating load that gives you no real control over actual penetration for the situation at hand.
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The only time I ever did this was when I briefly owned a kel-tec. It hiccuped occasionally on HP, but was flawless on FMJ. So I put an HP in the stack and loaded the mag FMJ. It occured to me that I would be better served by just getting a better gun,hence the G-26. Frankly, given that as a previous poster said, bonded HPs will do fine through barriers, and in an urban environment I'm more worried about over penetration than under penetration,I'd see no need for this. But hey, what ever works for you. Plus, you'll confuse the CSI guys. ;D
FQ13
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JMHO take it for what its worth, but I think you could better serve your goals by carrying a spare mag with just FMJs if it is that much of a concern for you.
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I have been loading like this for several years and wanted to get some feedback. Currently, I carry an XD40 Service and load the magazines alternating FMJ and JHP. The premise being that I will not have the luxury of knowing whether I will have to take a straight up/no cover shot at an attacker or if I might have to shoot through a windshield or other cover to stop a fight.
Comments...
If by alternating do you mean one after the other or half n' half? Yes most LE use a Winchester product similar to PDX1 called Ranger, goes through car doors, windows, walls, same thing as PDX1 without the sexy nickel plated brass. Honestly, I've never met a cop that was worried about over penetration, and I don't think they care, but they want the stopping power of JHP. If your really concerned about it, I'd load scatter gun style, four or five JHP up front and ball bringing up the rear. :-\ If you have to shoot through cover that you suspect JHP won't make it through, cycle out the JHP or shoot it and you've got FMJ.
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If by alternating do you mean one after the other or half n' half? Yes most LE use a Winchester product similar to PDX1 called Ranger, goes through car doors, windows, walls, same thing as PDX1 without the sexy nickel plated brass. Honestly, I've never met a cop that was worried about over penetration, and I don't think they care, but they want the stopping power of JHP. If your really concerned about it, I'd load scatter gun style, four or five JHP up front and ball bringing up the rear. :-\ If you have to shoot through cover that you suspect JHP won't make it through, cycle out the JHP or shoot it and you've got FMJ.
Reason cops don't care is that they have Soveriegn Immunity. You don't. If the shoot was justified, even if there was collateral damage, no personal lawsuit and no criminal liability. The department might take a hit and they may get fired, but thats it. Us not so much. I live in a crowded wanna-be city. Penetration is a big worry.
FQ13
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Reason cops don't care is that they have Soveriegn Immunity. You don't. If the shoot was justified, even if there was collateral damage, no personal lawsuit and no criminal liability. The department might take a hit and they may get fired, but thats it. Us not so much. I live in a crowded wanna-be city. Penetration is a big worry.
FQ13
Exactly.
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Reason cops don't care is that they have Soveriegn Immunity. You don't. If the shoot was justified, even if there was collateral damage, no personal lawsuit and no criminal liability. The department might take a hit and they may get fired, but thats it. Us not so much. I live in a crowded wanna-be city. Penetration is a big worry.
FQ13
I can't believe I'm siding with FQ as to the civilian part of the equation (even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while)... ;) ;D
Safe bet would be to check your state's laws. Not all states are the same. I would err on the side of caution, as FQ warns.
As an example on the laws:
When passing it's Castle Doctrine law, Georgia put in a new section disallowing criminal and civil liability if the shooting was justifiable.
HOWEVER, the law doesn't mention persons, other than the threats (innocent bystanders) who may have been affected. So as FQ stated, errant shot can/may/will have a lawyer attached unless your specific state went farther than Georgia.
2006: SB396 Stand Your Ground Law. Mirrors a law passed in Florida, ensuring that anyone who is attacked while behaving lawfully would have the right to “stand their ground” and defend himself or herself. The law authorizes deadly force if the attack could reasonably be considered life-threatening. If defending yourself as the law states, you are covered by both criminal and civil liability immunity.
SECTION 2.
Said article is further amended by striking in its entirety Code Section 16-3-24.2, relating to immunity from prosecution and exception, and inserting in lieu thereof the following:
"16-3-24.2.
A person who uses threats or force in accordance with Code Section 16-3-21, 16-3-23, 16-3-23.1, or 16-3-24 shall be immune from criminal prosecution therefor unless in the use of deadly force, such person utilizes a weapon the carrying or possession of which is unlawful by such person under Part 2 or 3 of Article 4 of Chapter 11 of this title."
SECTION 3.
Article 1 of Chapter 11 of Title 51 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to general provisions relative to defense to tort actions, is amended by striking in its entirety Code Section 51-11-9, relating to immunity from civil liability for threat or use of force in defense of a habitation, and inserting in lieu thereof the following:
"51-11-9.
A person who is justified in threatening or using force against another under the provisions of Code Section 16-3-21, relating to the use of force in defense of self or others, Code Section 16-3-23, relating to the use of force in defense of a habitation, or Code Section 16-3-24, relating to the use of force in defense of property other than a habitation, has no duty to retreat from the use of such force and shall not be held liable to the person against whom the use of force was justified or to any person acting as an accomplice or assistant to such person in any civil action brought as a result of the threat or use of such force."
The above laws specify that criminal and civil liability immunity only applies to justifiable shootings where only the threat was hit. Basically if you hit anyone else with a stray shot, all bets are off....you will be in deep doo-doo.
Your laws may vary....so check.
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I do not agree with you FQ. Every police officer is liable when he shoots someone. Had officers sued when they shot a guy pointing a gun at them here recently. You are thinking of judges and they have absolute immunity. Prosecutors have limited immunity.
http://www.publicsafetyproject.org/docs/fei_immunity_c.pdf
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I do not agree with you FQ. Every police officer is liable when he shoots someone. Had officers sued when they shot a guy pointing a gun at them here recently. You are thinking of judges and they have absolute immunity. Prosecutors have limited immunity.
http://www.publicsafetyproject.org/docs/fei_immunity_c.pdf
You know more about this than I do as an LEO. However, I do know that I can sue the County SO for lax training etc. I have a real hard time dragging a deputy into court. The principle being that he was acting under lawful guidelines from a competant authority even if he did miss and hit me by mistake. Yeah, I'll name him in the suit, but odds are good its going nowhere unless I can demonstrate gross negligence or a wilfull violation of department protocol.
FQ13
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I think when you talk about barrier penetration with ball ammo it is also worthy to note that it can tend to skid and deflect a bit easier than JHP. When you have any types of angle to the surface JHP can bite and get better traction to punch through with less of the skidding effect.
There are alot of variables involved, but in a general way I believe that JHP ammo is better at barrier penetration in this respect.
I was able to do some shooting on an old car last year and was kind of amazed at what car glass can do to the path of a bullet.
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FQ You are right. The officers was sued and so was the department. The insurance agency settled out of court. $350,000 pay out was less than sitting in court and winning the civil case that was going to cost the insurance agency $500,000 or so they say. Judges are the only ones that cannot be sued. That is why they can set a low bail amount and if the person gets out and then kills someone oh well. If the officer does not arrest (domestic violence a lot of times) and someone gets hurt or killed, expect to loose everything you have.
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FQ You are right. The officers was sued and so was the department. The insurance agency settled out of court. $350,000 pay out was less than sitting in court and winning the civil case that was going to cost the insurance agency $500,000 or so they say. Judges are the only ones that cannot be sued. That is why they can set a low bail amount and if the person gets out and then kills someone oh well. If the officer does not arrest (domestic violence a lot of times) and someone gets hurt or killed, expect to loose everything you have.
That has happened in a couple of DWI fatalities up here, Cop pulled some one over but gave them a break and told them to go home accident 10 miles later and the Cop got sued.
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That has happened in a couple of DWI fatalities up here, Cop pulled some one over but gave them a break and told them to go home accident 10 miles later and the Cop got sued.
And people hate cops for not being good ole boys anymore and giving breaks. Hmmm wonder why?
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I have been loading like this for several years and wanted to get some feedback. Currently, I carry an XD40 Service and load the magazines alternating FMJ and JHP. The premise being that I will not have the luxury of knowing whether I will have to take a straight up/no cover shot at an attacker or if I might have to shoot through a windshield or other cover to stop a fight.
Comments...
I don't see any advantage to this. I can see, however, an increased chance of a misfeed with alternating rounds. I found a defensive load that feeds reliably in my gun, expands well, and is just as effective as a FMJ if it doesn't expand. I can't see ny need to alternate between that load and anything else.
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Thanks to all! The overpenetration issue is something that I had not thought about but should have. The advances made in JHP has made these loads much more effective and versatile than ever before.
I have never had a problem with stoppages due to the alternating rounds but could see where that could be a problem with a gun that played favorites.
You just made reloading my magazines a lot easier!!!
Thanks again!
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I keep a FMJ as my second round just in case. So I know I will at least get off 2 rounds. Other than that I don't see any advantage. Plenty of people carry ball ammo, IMO the results and worries about over penetration are greatly exaggerated.
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I keep a FMJ as my second round just in case. So I know I will at least get off 2 rounds. Other than that I don't see any advantage. Plenty of people carry ball ammo, IMO the results and worries about over penetration are greatly exaggerated.
Murphy is a SOB. If your luck is anything like mine, you will shoot once, have it pass right thru the BG and hit 5 other people and then detroy a priceless stained glass window.
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I had a friend who used to do this and it took me a while to convince him not to, and in fact he loaded, FMJ, Soft-points and JHP's. Putting different types of ammo in the same magazine significantly increases the chance of a malfunction due to the differences in velocity and feeding. Likewise, you will NOT have the round type you need for a specific shot when you need it due to the Demon Murphy.
I suggest you find a good brand of JHP's that handle intermediate barriers well and still expands well in tissue (I use golden Sabers myself) and stop worrying. Too many of us fall into the trap of expecting our pistols can be turned into death-rays if we just find the right ammo when the reality is that all handguns suck and we only carry them because a rifle is too hard to conceal. If you accept this reality and learn to embrace and overcome the limitations of the handgun you will be far better off.
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My thoughts ... and take them for what you paid for them:
If you are concerned about a barrier of any type causing projectile problems, or one type of projectile not being reliable in your gun - Don't use it at all! Your self defense weapon MUST be 100% reliable at all times!
From all the tests I have seen and literature I have read the only bullet that will not give you a concern with over penetration is a frangible. We need to worry about "pass through" in all our self defense situations, because if we are shooting further than 21 feet we are stretching the reality of "needing to shoot."
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It can exist, but shooting through a barrier is probably not the most likely self-defense scenario (did you say you were LEO with a different need?). An idiot chasing you down with a car, yes...so if you have reason to think that would happen then OK. What I am saying is that if someone is behind a barrier there maybe a decent chance that you can escape/avoid the situation...maybe not, but if you can escape and don't attempt to you might find yourself in quite the legal tangle (assuming you are not law enforcement).
At home I don't want to shoot through walls...because I don't want to hit one of my children. I go with flextip ammo that will break apart....it also has more of an immediate energy dumping shock to aid in stopping the threat. I had an AR for inside home defense before it was cool.
Unless you have something else in mind, a more specific need, most shootings are face to face and very close. Therefore, the greatest likelihood is no barrier. I've had the need for my weapon (or didn't have one and wanted one because there was a very big one pointed at me) about a half-dozen times....no barrier was present in any of those situations.
For myself, I ponder these two things:
First, it's your deal, but before using a fmj round to shoot through a barrier you might want to consider the legalities and decide to safely exit the conflict if you and anyone in your legal protection (immediate family member, etc.) can leave safely. If it's not safe, don't leave.
Second consider what you had in mind for a barrier. If you are at home a JHP will fly right through sheetrock...consider the difference between cover and concealment. A "barrier" might be either...what did you have in mind? If the bad guy is using concealment the JHP should do quite well.
For carry I use CorBon DPX, Hornady Critical Defense or Federal EFMJ (works really well in 45 ACP, expands to .75" flower petal). If you are LE or you are concerned about body armor this may not be the best plan. For me, I'll stick with the above and I will shoot until the threat stops and if I am concerned about body armor will aim below the belly button which, my friends back from the sand box tell me, works quite well.
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I absolutely agree with Rastus. We all have decisions to make in accordance with our personal firearm/s and ammunition. I would prefer the best of the rest in dependability and accuracy, a reason I choose Hornady Ammunition, but how it will all perform with the firearm I may be carrying at the moment which may differ from my Glock.
If you are carrying a .45 ACP, ball rounds will achive the desired effect on a undesirable, just as a hollow point will. I prefer to carry a .45 ACP Glock, no model necessary with that round and not worry about it.
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What are the real odds of having to rely on barrier penetration in a self defense situation? Negligible in my book.... Car glass doesn't affect combat accuracy when you shoot OUT of it much.... Much more likely scenario than HAVING to shoot someone driving AWAY from a situation....
Better to find either ammunition that feeds reliably, have the gun worked on so it feeds you choice of ammo reliably, or get a gun that digests everything reliably.... Or buy a Springfield XD and load Cor-Bon DPX's and have the best of both worlds, good penetration, 100 percent feeding, and incredible expansion.... JMHO....
Cheers,
Scottt