The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on February 02, 2010, 11:08:55 AM
-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35181444/ns/world_news-haiti_earthquake
Whoever is running the show over there should tell them if those people aren't let out in 15 minutes, we pull everyone and everything out and they can all starve! Why does this country take this kind of silly crap from these pi$$ pot countries? It's ridiculous. Bill T.
-
Because our politicians are a bunch of gutless lawyers and college dweebs with no clue about REAL LIFE.
-
There is more to the story. A lot more.
-
Please don't go into that KGB invented BS about cutting them up for their organs.
That was an active measure they used against America and Western Europe back in the 60's and like "The protocals of the Elders of Zion" (Czarist produced anti Jewish propaganda ) it just won't go away.
-
Because our politicians are a bunch of gutless lawyers and college dweebs with no clue about REAL LIFE.
Have you got that right! Bill T.
-
Please don't go into that KGB invented BS about cutting them up for their organs.
That was an active measure they used against America and Western Europe back in the 60's and like "The protocals of the Elders of Zion" (Czarist produced anti Jewish propaganda ) it just won't go away.
I have personally heard that one from Haitians, but no that isn't where I was going. It simply WON'T go away, like an urban myth.
I was going for the UN/UNICEF agenda and these people getting raliroaded for their agenda.
-
I for one believe they have good evidence that these people were indeed acting illegaly, and should be held until a fair trial can be arranged, and if found innocent, only then be let free. Just because they are americans in a ravaged country doesnt mean they have honorable intent. Americans can be just as crooked and evil as any other culture, hence the reason to arm ourselves for self defense.
-
I for one believe they have good evidence that these people were indeed acting illegaly, and should be held until a fair trial can be arranged, and if found innocent, only then be let free. Just because they are americans in a ravaged country doesnt mean they have honorable intent. Americans can be just as crooked and evil as any other culture, hence the reason to arm ourselves for self defense.
Not going to argue their intent. I agree with there is evil intent everywhere. I am saying they are being treated differently than others caught doing the same thing.
This whole Haiti thing has COMPLETELY convinced me of media innaccuracy. I know a lot of the background, people being interviewed on CNN, etc. and the innaccuracies are astonishing. It has been interesting trying to analyze which are mistakes and which are bias, but it is WAY worse than I used to think it was. The MSM propaganda machine can't die soon enough.
-
I for one believe they have good evidence that these people were indeed acting illegaly, and should be held until a fair trial can be arranged, and if found innocent, only then be let free. Just because they are americans in a ravaged country doesnt mean they have honorable intent. Americans can be just as crooked and evil as any other culture, hence the reason to arm ourselves for self defense.
FACT: They were Americans trying to help the Haitians. They weren't there to improve themselves economically. There is nothing to steal in Haiti except children who you would do a favor to humanity by getting them out of that hellhole.
FACT: They were trying to take some little kids off the island to a better place, which would be ANYPLACE! If they in fact "profited" off of that, SO WHAT? Would the kids be better there? Spare me about, "selling them into prostitution". Or some other lame, liberal game.
FACT: Some stupid Haitians arrested them. They are stupid because they are all a large part of why the country is a stink hole to begin with.
FACT: We as Americans sit here like IDIOT'S and LET THEM DO IT! Just go in there, get them out and IT'S OVER! WHO IS GOING TO STOP THEM? the U.N? Haiti? This is total nonsense, and a waste of bandwidth! Bill T.
-
And yet people wonder why I've not given a dime to help them...
just my IMO, we should not help them. let the EU bail some one out for a change.
-
And yet people wonder why I've not given a dime to help them...
just my IMO, we should not help them. let the EU bail some one out for a change.
Bingo!!!
-
FACT: They were Americans trying to help the Haitians. They weren't there to improve themselves economically. There is nothing to steal in Haiti except children who you would do a favor to humanity by getting them out of that hellhole.
FACT: They were trying to take some little kids off the island to a better place, which would be ANYPLACE! If they in fact "profited" off of that, SO WHAT? Would the kids be better there? Spare me about, "selling them into prostitution". Or some other lame, liberal game.
FACT: Some stupid Haitians arrested them. They are stupid because they are all a large part of why the country is a stink hole to begin with.
FACT: We as Americans sit here like IDIOT'S and LET THEM DO IT! Just go in there, get them out and IT'S OVER! WHO IS GOING TO STOP THEM? the U.N? Haiti? This is total nonsense, and a waste of bandwidth! Bill T.
I didnt realize you knew these people on a personal basis and were privy to every possible piece of evidence involving something happening thousands of miles away. I will just trust that you know more than the people ACTUALLY there handling this in person.
Let em go now or lets bomb the whole island!!!
thats rational...
-
It's multiple counts of kidnapping. No wonder they're in jail.
-
I didnt realize you knew these people on a personal basis and were privy to every possible piece of evidence involving something happening thousands of miles away. I will just trust that you know more than the people ACTUALLY there handling this in person.
Let em go now or lets bomb the whole island!!!
thats rational...
And you do ? These scum bags sell their own kids to be whores. We should not bomb the whole Island, the Dominicans seem to actually try.
But bombing the crap out of the Haitian side would be an improvement since it would rid the world of some of these lazy swine that have sat there sniveling for 200 years. The best years Haiti ever saw were under the Duvalier's.
-
And yet people wonder why I've not given a dime to help them...
just my IMO, we should not help them. let the EU bail some one out for a change.
I agree totally. There is no "helping" these people. Besides, I've already "given". Bill Clinton poured billions of our tax dollars into that stink hole, and absolutely nothing changed. All of the money was stolen by a totally corrupt government, and virtually none of it reached the people. Look at Somalia. We flew in hundreds of metric tons of food to try and feed all of the people who were starving there. Our reward was to have our helicopters shot down, our pilots killed, and their bodies dragged through the streets like dead animals. The bulk of the food was stolen by marauding gangs and sold on the black market to buy guns and drugs with. This kind of nonsense has taken place at one time or another all over Africa. Now the liberal Hollywood crowd wants us to go into Darfur and stop the genocide. You will never improve these peoples lives. We tried all through the 50's and 60's with the Peace Corp. We accomplished nothing. You can't teach these people how to farm anymore than you could make Astronauts out of them. It is simply a total lost cause. Haiti is just another example of that. And I'm talking before the quake! Bill T.
-
I for one believe they have good evidence that these people were indeed acting illegaly, and should be held until a fair trial can be arranged, and if found innocent, only then be let free. Just because they are americans in a ravaged country doesnt mean they have honorable intent. Americans can be just as crooked and evil as any other culture, hence the reason to arm ourselves for self defense.
Walkeraviator might be onto something here. Just because they claim to be US Baptists doesn't necessarily mean they were doing God's work. Reports coming out are indicating several of these "orphans" have living moms and dads and other family members. Other reports are suggesting the church members knew they needed proper paperwork and also knew they weren't going to get it but went ahead, anyway. That being said, one of the heftier women in the group is apparently in need of treatment for her diabetes and isn't getting it in Haiti. That's not right even if she isn't all that saintly. Much more will unfold as the details come to light. If you have read my posts, you know I am not one to defend much of what our current bunch of congresscritters is doing. But, they maybe shouldn't act too hastily in this case.
-
Walkeraviator might be onto something here. Just because they claim to be US Baptists doesn't necessarily mean they were doing God's work. Reports coming out are indicating several of these "orphans" have living moms and dads and other family members. Other reports are suggesting the church members knew they needed proper paperwork and also knew they weren't going to get it but went ahead, anyway. That being said, one of the heftier women in the group is apparently in need of treatment for her diabetes and isn't getting it in Haiti. That's not right even if she isn't all that saintly. Much more will unfold as the details come to light. If you have read my posts, you know I am not one to defend much of what our current bunch of congresscritters is doing. But, they maybe shouldn't act too hastily in this case.
The more that is revealed about this, the more it stinks.
-
Other reports are suggesting the church members knew they needed proper paperwork and also knew they weren't going to get it but went ahead, anyway.
So they lacked paperwork, and were trying to take Haitian children out of the country. How is this a "bad" thing? Do you think if they remained they would grow up to be cardiovascular surgeons? Bill T.
-
So they lacked paperwork, and were trying to take Haitian children out of the country. How is this a "bad" thing? Do you think if they remained they would grow up to be cardiovascular surgeons? Bill T.
That's not the point Bill. It's like Ellian and Maddadonna's Malawian adopted child. Objectively yes, the kids would be better off away from there environments (well, maybe not Ellian with the Miami relatives ::)), but it still doesn't change the fact that you can't take away someone's kid beause you want what's best for them. Suppose Bill Gates wanted Mrs.T. He could buy her a lot more guns than even you. Are you going to let him have her?
FQ13 who hopes the answer is no because other wise there is apt to be gunfire from Phoenix. (Of course that might lead to a gun sale to pay legal bills, so......). ;D ;D ;D
-
I have been trying to avoid the news from haiti because I frankly (bastard I may be for this) Don't care. They won't/didn't send any help our way for any disasters we have had here in the US. While I was fire chief of the small Vol Service I never once had a Haitian person or even a distant relative for that matter come up and offer any assistance during the Flood of 2008 that hit our community and surrounding communities hard or after the F3 tornado tore through our little town and a few other towns to the north. I have/will/continue to support the US and any problem anywhere to the best of my abilities.
Now about the people locked up. I don't know all of the facts at all. They could be and maybe and very possibly are a bunch of crazies. However the one clip they keep showing of the Haitian Official that says one of the 7/8 year olds says they have a living mother and father? Do they know they are living? Have they seen them since the quake? Just seems like shady evidence to me. I don't distrust kids because they are the most honest people you can find most of the time but their time-lines may be off also. Also the authorities of the region seem to be more corrupt than not so why not put a bunch of Americans in jail and make some publicity.
-
Also the authorities of the region seem to be more corrupt than not so why not put a bunch of Americans in jail and make some publicity.
it still doesn't change the fact that you can't take away some one's kid because you want what's best for them. Suppose Bill Gates wanted Mrs.T. He could buy her a lot more guns than even you. Are you going to let him have her?
Come on. This isn't about buying guns. Get real. Let's go once again to reality.
1.) These kids have zero chance.
2.) They have a chance to be sent to a better place which is anyplace. These people who sent them there aren't criminals. Do you honestly think they are better off staying there because the parents are idiot's who just because they "produced them" deserve them? Get real. If I was one of those kids I would want off that rock as fast as I could! You damn well know it!
-
From the limited information I have heard on this situation is seems that, while these people lacked the necessary paperwork, their hearts were in the right place. It would seem to me that if BHO could send BJ Klintoon to Korea to gain the release of a pair of Al Whore employees who wandered into that country, the State Department could DAMN sure point out to Haiti that, in this situation, it should be "no harm, no foul", and get these people sprung from jail. I guess instead of being therre working for the Lord, they shoulda signed on with Al Whore.
-
From the limited information I have heard on this situation is seems that, while these people lacked the necessary paperwork, their hearts were in the right place. It would seem to me that if BHO could send BJ Klintoon to Korea to gain the release of a pair of Al Whore employees who wandered into that country, the State Department could DAMN sure point out to Haiti that, in this situation, it should be "no harm, no foul", and get these people sprung from jail. I guess instead of being therre working for the Lord, they shoulda signed on with Al Whore.
Exactly. It has yet to be proven these kids "belonged" to anyone. Even if they did, it would most certainly be cause for removal from a states based home if they were treated that way here. Then what? Would the media be screaming foul? No, they would want the heads of the parents on a plate. 700 miles of ocean can cause the best of brains to become void of common sense. Bill T.
-
Exactly. It has yet to be proven these kids "belonged" to anyone. Even if they did, it would most certainly be cause for removal from a states based home if they were treated that way here. Then what? Would the media be screaming foul? No, they would want the heads of the parents on a plate. 700 miles of ocean can cause the best of brains to become void of common sense. Bill T.
"Treated that way"? What way? Being poor in a poor country? Look, neither of us has all the facts so wecan't have an intelligent debate. All that we can do usefully is state our first principles that would guide us in a hypothetical case. Yours seems to be that getting any child out of that hell hole is a good thing for the child and therefore the ends justify the means. The wishes of the parents and local laws are irrelevant as the children will be better off if they live here rather than there and there is ample evidence to prove it. Mine are that no one , absent neglect or abuse, can justly seperate a child from its family, and that even the lowliest nation on earth has not just the right, but the duty to stand on its hind legs and enforce this principle against the strongest nation on earth. I think I have fairly stated your case. I also think we should debate these principles, rather than a rather murky case where facts are scarce on the ground.
respectfully
FQ13
-
How can you debate the fact growing up in Haiti is a lost cause no matter who you are? It is the poorest country in the entire hemisphere. The average person exists on less than $2 a day! No child should have to live in those conditions period! The fact is millions do. You have a group of people who tried to take a few of them out. They are now in jail for it. What else is there to know? I don't care who there parents are, if these people had "proper paperwork", what they had for lunch, or anything else. It doesn't matter. If the kids remain there they will have about as lousy of a life as one could possibly imagine. If they get off that rock, however, or by the actions of whomever, they have a chance. If they remain they have zero chance. What is so difficult to comprehend here? I'm not seeing it. As I said, if a parent subjected a child to those conditions here, CFS would yank them out of the home in a heartbeat, and the parents would be facing neglect and abuse charges. In that hellhole we mourn for the "poor parents". Give me a break! Bill T.
-
I guess my feelings can be summed up in the fact that I believe there are more stringent qualifications to being a parent than the ability to eat and screw. Bill T.
-
How can you debate that no mother should have her child stolen by people wealthier than herself? By you logic it would seem that any rich, loving and childless couple should be able to grab a kid out of a ghetto or trailer park on the premise (lets assume an honest one) that it would have a better life with them. This may seem to trivialize the matter, but it doesn't. Some rights are not to be messed with no matter how well intended you are. If the parents or surviving family members want to give their kids up, good. If not, its their call.
FQ13
-
I guess my feelings can be summed up in the fact that I believe there are more stringent qualifications to being a parent than the ability to eat and screw. Bill T.
110% agree
there are people here I know that do not deserve kids and I know people that would be very good parents that are not able to at this stage and are working out if they can go on IVF...
like I have said in the past
you need a licence to drive a car, boat, own a firearm, ect
yet they let anyone breed.... and the kids end up suffering in the cases and it then just goes around in a circle
this is just a general comment not related to this particular
and a little too close to home... with out me jumping on the Rant box about a few people i know AHHHHHHHH must not get on it.
-
you need a licence to drive a car, boat, own a firearm, ect yet they let anyone breed.... and the kids end up suffering in the cases and it then just goes around in a circle
Right on the money. You don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to analyze this. It is common sense. These people have no business breeding, but do so anyway. Because they do the product of that breeding, the child suffers, because these stupid, foolish, selfish "parents" cannot have their "rights violated". It makes me sick. If potential parents had to pass an I.Q. test before breeding, the worlds population would drop drastically, and for the better. Bill T.
-
Right on the money. You don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to analyze this. It is common sense. These people have no business breeding, but do so anyway. Because they do the product of that breeding, the child suffers, because these stupid, foolish, selfish "parents" cannot have their "rights violated". It makes me sick. If potential parents had to pass an I.Q. test before breeding, the worlds population would drop drastically, and for the better. Bill T.
Bill
I'm going to word this post carefully. I don't mean it to sound arrogant, argumentative or accusatory as I think you are a good guy. In fact, empirically speaking, I think you have a good case. The problem is in the morality of the thing. You have basically echoed the eugenisist argument here. Lets put racism aside and assume an equal opportunity standard, because I'm damn sure NOT accuseing you of racism. The thing is I am pro-choice. That means the right to abstinence, birth control, abortion and parenthood. What government body would you trust to tell people whether they can/must produce or not produce a child? By what right does anyone submit to any IQ, or other, test to do so? In an ideal world the worlds population would be half of what is now and we'd all have Einstein's brain, Angelina Jolie's, or Brad Pitts looks and Peyton Manning's athletic ability. But that way leads to badness, because when you try to engineer it.......
FQ13
-
Here is the way I see this deal. Haiti is no different than most other poor nations in that they are "unfixable". We've tried there, and countless other nations with zero results. There are all sorts of reasons. Corrupt governments, lazy, uncaring people, pure stupidity. We've spent billions of dollars and decades chasing results that never come. I don't know about you but I'm a little tired of all of it. I can't even turn on the TV at dinnertime without an overweight Sally Struthers telling me how I can feed some poor starving kid in Upper Volta for .27 cents a day. They'll even send me a picture of him or her.
Nothing ever changes except more starving children are constantly being born to idiot parents. I'm not going to get into the whole black thing, although that seems to be about 95% of the problem. It will never be solved, NEVER. So yes, what I'm suggesting is to take these kids, by whatever means necessary, and distribute them to a more deserving family who is capable of caring for them. We do that with dogs and cats here because we are compassionate people. But try it with a kid and you're some type of monster. I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way.
There is one chance those kids have, and one chance only. That is to get them the hell out of there by whatever means necessary. If they remain it is all but guaranteed they will have a very short, filthy, disease ridden, poverty stricken life. No one should have to live like that. If a few laws, and or parental rights get fractured in the process, so be it. I would rather see an undeserving parent cry, than a kid starve. The "parents" will get over it, and most likely bang out another. The kid in question won't "get over" starving to death. As attorneys so love to say, those are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed. Bill T.
-
What exactly is wrong with eugenics ? Oliver Wendall Holmes thought it was a great idea.
More precisely, can you explain to me why people who believe Darwins theory of evolution, (which says that better adapted species supplant less adapted ones, and the strong survive while the weak perish.) would object to the same type of "reasoned" breeding program for people that we regularly apply to cows and horses ?
Seems like either hypocracy, or a reasoned conspiracy to weaken the human strain.
-
What exactly is wrong with eugenics ? Oliver Wendall Holmes thought it was a great idea.
More precisely, can you explain to me why people who believe Darwins theory of evolution, (which says that better adapted species supplant less adapted ones, and the strong survive while the weak perish.) would object to the same type of "reasoned" breeding program for people that we regularly apply to cows and horses ?
Seems like either hypocracy, or a reasoned conspiracy to weaken the human strain.
One question. Who do we trust to set up and enforce the program? History says the answer is no one. Its something that can go right one way and end up FUBARed a hundred ways. I'll play the odds.
FQ13
-
I should point out I'm not talking about a mass exodus here. I'm applying this to these people who are in the can for trying to take a few kids out, not the military bringing in 50 C-17's and turning Miami International into a parent less Romper Room. And if we should let the strong survive, and the weak perish, wouldn't it be better to just bomb the place, rather than let the human suffering continue on such a grand scale? Besides, it would be more cost effective as well. Bill T.
-
I should point out I'm not talking about a mass exodus here. I'm applying this to these people who are in the can for trying to take a few kids out, not the military bringing in 50 C-17's and turning Miami International into a parent less Romper Room. And if we should let the strong survive, and the weak perish, wouldn't it be better to just bomb the place, rather than let the human suffering continue on such a grand scale? Besides, it would be more cost effective as well. Bill T.
Bill, as you said before "it will never be solved, NEVER"
There will be another generation of kids to save, another Sally Struthers commercial for them or someplace else. Either you let them face the results of their stupidity and perish until, perhaps, at some point in their fall, they learn they will need to fix it themselves.
Either that or it will take a lot of bombing.
As a side note, Marilyn Monroe once suggest to Einstein that they have a child. She commented that a child with his brains and her looks would be wonderful. His answer was yes, but what a disaster if it had my looks and your brains.
-
Marilyn Monroe once suggest to Einstein that they have a child. She commented that a child with his brains and her looks would be wonderful. His answer was yes, but what a disaster if it had my looks and your brains.
I like that! Bill T.