The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on February 03, 2010, 07:47:28 PM
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Here's the link: http://pistol-training.com/archives/2474
The author has some good points about having a plan....Next week I'm going to a training class, so this got my attention!
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It happens.
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Holster fast, hit leg.
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The bullet had entered just below the knee, traveled through the calf muscle, and exited just above the ankle. Pressure bandages were applied to both wounds. The student remained lucid and even made some jokes. He calmly explained that he’d had his finger on the trigger as he holstered the gun.
Booger hook/ bang switch thingy comes to mind. It can happen to anyone within an instant. There is no margin of error when it comes to safety.
Glad he will recover.
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Something EVERY range should have available
http://practicaltrauma.com/range.shtml
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When people handle firearms long enough its not a matter of "If" it becomes a matter of "When".
We have to stay vigilant on saftey.
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This is great information. Do training programs exist that would teach the every day citizen how to appropriately administer the contents of the kit?
Something EVERY range should have available
http://practicaltrauma.com/range.shtml
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American 121 - I am going to respond and I don't want any of this to sound dismissive or insulting. It is in no way intended that way.
The training is available through most Junior Colleges in Basic First Aid or Emergency Med Tech for a little more in depth. But basically there are only four things the 'average' citizen needs to remember.
1 - Call for help! If that means you need to dial 911 do it. If you have to yell at someone to call 911 do it. If you have to yell out for help don't ask for help. Don't ask someone or anyone to call 911. TELL/ORDER someone specific to call 911. Otherwise everyone will think someone else will call for help while they watch the action - They will turn into the OHHH! and AHHH! Squad.
2 - Airway - If is closed open it. If something is in the way move it. If there is breathing proceed to step 3.
3 - Breathing - If you have been able to clear the airway make sure the person is breathing. Lift the chin, get your face close to theirs and look, listen and feel. Look at their chest to see if it is moving, feel for their exhalations on your cheek (At this point you are also feeling the carotid artery for a pulse), listen for their breathing. If their is no breathing start with CPR. If their is breathing proceed to step 4.
4 - Circulation - Sweep the body - A leak check - are they bleeding? If they are try to stop it, or at least slow it down. The best way to do this is through pressure and elevation.
None of the previous is intended to replace professional instruction. It was typed merely for entertainment purposes - With the legal requirements out of the way...
Again, I don't intend to sound insulting but am trying to show really how primitive basic first aid needs to be. You are only there until the Pros show up. If you are a pro or have pro training you should have your kit and know how to use it.
Kits are over rated. The only thing a basic first aid provider may need is a pressure dressing. Sounds impressive, doesn't it? Get a 'feminine hygiene pad' or Maxi-Pad (same thing I believe) and an Ace Wrap. Apply the pad, wrap the wound with the Ace Wrap and raise the injured part above the level of the heart.
Yea, Blood Clotting powders or "Blood Coagulation Powders" should be left to the pros. Don't think so? Keep it away from the face, the patients and yours! If you don't do you know how to treat it? Best left to the experienced.
I hope in some way this helped someone...
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Kits are over rated. The only thing a basic first aid provider may need is a pressure dressing. Sounds impressive, doesn't it? Get a 'feminine hygiene pad' or Maxi-Pad (same thing I believe) and an Ace Wrap. Apply the pad, wrap the wound with the Ace Wrap and raise the injured part above the level of the heart.
I was told this by an EMT who was teaching a first aid/first responder class. He said they are sterile and work well.
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Trident makes a VERY important point about not screwing around with stuff you don't know or understand.
First off is it will tie up space in your kit that could be used for more stuff you DO know how to use, Using it with out knowledge can cause a whole NEW set of problems, and the help that shows up and DOES know how to use this stuff will use their own since they will not trust yours to have been stored properly.
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Good points, Trident, excellent overview of the traditional basics. (I'm teaching in your AO, this week, btw...)
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I'm not doctor, nor do I conduct medical training specifically. I do try to keep up with it, require that all my instructors have a tourniquet and quality compression bandages on their person when teaching CFS and contract in leading specialty instructors (D.A.M.N., Black Sheep, etc) for the medical information.
I think that the leading edge is to focus on bloodloss as the primary care focus, ie- as #1 on your list of priorities. Keep the blood in the body. If you can send someone else to call for help concurrently, all the better. This is what we recommend for people in a training environment.
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Peg leg,
Kits are not at all overrated. Especially simple kits. They give you ONE PLACE for the RIGHT THINGS. There is no reason to use old surgical tubing as a tourniquet or repurposed hygiene products to stop blood loss in 2010. We're all spending a lot of money and effort and time to have guns and ammo and get to the range... the extra $40 for simple supplies and a belt pack is worth it.
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As for this thread itself, I think the integrity that the instructor showed in sharing the story is a great thing. We had a student shoot himself in the leg (through his holster) at Valhalla many years ago and we tried to use the incident to educate (both from the lessons that the instructor on the range learned and the mechanics of what actually happened). Pretending that these accidents don't happen all the time is dangerous. Ignoring the need for a plan is dangerous. Skipping out on simple items and basic knowledge is dangerous.
-RJP
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When people handle firearms long enough its not a matter of "If" it becomes a matter of "When".
We have to stay vigilant on saftey.
What Brady Campaign nonsense gave you that one liner? I would suggest if you don't have the stats to back that up its not worth putting out there. I for one get pissed everytime I hear someone utter the "Accidental Discharge" BS. There is no such thing, it doesn't exist, its about as useless a phrase as "a whole nuther". The student did a stupid thing and paid the price, end of story.
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There ARE occasionally "Accidental" discharges. They ALL involve defective fire arms, which, after all ARE mechanical devices and can break.
ALL others are " NEGLIGENT " discharges and involve some one violating one of the 4 basic rules of safety.
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I'm curious as to why the practical trauma kit doesn't include or link to a quick clot gauze pack. As easy to use as a pressure bandage and easily removed after clotting. ???
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Quote from: Ranger Dave on February 03, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
When people handle firearms long enough its not a matter of "If" it becomes a matter of "When".
We have to stay vigilant on saftey.
What Brady Campaign nonsense gave you that one liner? I would suggest if you don't have the stats to back that up its not worth putting out there. I for one get pissed everytime I hear someone utter the "Accidental Discharge" BS. There is no such thing, it doesn't exist, its about as useless a phrase as "a whole nuther". The student did a stupid thing and paid the price, end of story.
My intent on my comment was when people handle firearms long enough people will get complacent with safety and stuff will happen. That is why we all have to stay vigilant on saftey. As for official stasts I don't have any However I know of six cases of people I know and worked who had ND's because they were complacent. I believe everyone here now as least one story of a ND and this is why we all have to stay vigilant on the 4 basic rules of safety.
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Quote from: Ranger Dave on February 03, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
When people handle firearms long enough its not a matter of "If" it becomes a matter of "When".
We have to stay vigilant on saftey.
What Brady Campaign nonsense gave you that one liner? I would suggest if you don't have the stats to back that up its not worth putting out there. I for one get pissed everytime I hear someone utter the "Accidental Discharge" BS. There is no such thing, it doesn't exist, its about as useless a phrase as "a whole nuther". The student did a stupid thing and paid the price, end of story.
My intent on my comment was when people handle firearms long enough people will get complacent with safety and stuff will happen. That is why we all have to stay vigilant on saftey. As for official stasts I don't have any However I know of six cases of people I know and worked who had ND's because they were complacent. I believe everyone here now as least one story of a ND and this is why we all have to stay vigilant on the 4 basic rules of safety.
Since you are posting on THIS site and not something like "Democrat underground I figured that was where you were going with that comment. ;D
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Thanks Tom
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I'm curious as to why the practical trauma kit doesn't include or link to a quick clot gauze pack. As easy to use as a pressure bandage and easily removed after clotting. ???
Quick Clot is a very Dangerous substance. Cannot be used on anything above the major joints Elbows and Knees. I know this case it would have been maybe ok but most people don't know that and they use them improperly. Causes clots where you don't want them. (brain and heart and lungs) This is why we don't have them on the ambulance service.
"That movie Shooter was a pretty good movie. Fairly accurate if you take out the drama" - USMC GnySgt Caudle (Ret.) My former Chieft Deputy when I worked at the sheriff's office. He also commented about the quick clot scene when he puts quick clot on a chest wound.
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Ranger Dave is right. Lets save the holier than thou BS. There is not a single one of us who drives a car or shoots a gun, who has not had an "Oh sh*t"! moment. It happened to me when I blew through a red light I didn't see because I was busy talking to my passenger some years ago, and it happened with a gun when I violated the booger hook/bang switch rule. No harm no foul either time, but it could very easily have gone the other way, and if it had, I had nobody to blame but me. Both scared the crap out of me enough to be "come Jesus moments" in terms of "I will never let myself get distracted again", but they were wake up calls. I doubt I'm alone here. Anyone?
FQ13
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Unfortunately I have one past and one present friend with wounds to their legs from handguns. I will say they were neg discharges as Tom has put it. The healed buddy I can say it was more the gun than himself but it was the classic revolver cocked on a loaded chamber while walking to the firing line. It was mostly that he had never been around revolvers before. (Was his dad's .22) I'm still calling that one his fault. Currently I have a friend/acquaintance that has a badly busted up Femur from a 9mm. If anyone has facebook you can search for Zach Steinhart and his xray is his facebook profile picture.. Dumbass. I don't know what the circumstances of this ND/AD were yet but it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't involve something stupid.
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I agree with those who get the fact that semantic arguments about terminology are beneath the intelligence level of those who take safety issues seriously.
Similarly, pedantic foot stomping about "the four rules", "the three rules" and/or "the golden rule" does nothing to address the root causes of specific incidents. It is the effective equivalent of saying "if the person hadn't been handling a firearm it wouldn't have happened!". We will not re-hash that discussion in this thread. I suggest Google Search and a box of popcorn if you are interested in learning more about my opinions on the topic and starting a separate thread outside of the D&T area if you are interested in opining.
Both approaches lead to complacency about important issues and false comfort... those are dangerous, as has been pointed out.
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Meanwhile,
I'm curious as to why the practical trauma kit doesn't include or link to a quick clot gauze pack. As easy to use as a pressure bandage and easily removed after clotting.
There area few reasons... one is the misunderstandings about the product itself another is access/expense. Personally, I think the latter is not much of an objection.
The first issue is stickier. First, the ORIGINAL quikclot product that was adopted by the military had a lot of issues, including the granular nature of the product and the exothermic reaction. Combine those two points with untrained use and you could have disastrous results that make situations worse... hence the bad rep that the product has and the mis-information that is often spread about it. The good news is that the exact product you mentioned ("combat gauze" is the proper brand name, IIRC) does NOT have loose grains that can go places you don't want them and it DOES NOT have any heat issues. It can be used in a variety of applications, not limited (to the best of my knowledge) to extremities. Going beyond that specific product, there are other brands, chemicals and delivery systems designed to help the clotting process. All of the current generation of hemostatic agents have valid applications, but they require a higher level of awareness and training than simple compression dressings.
By the way, I was laboring under a misunderstanding about some of these products, and Quikclot in particular, until very recently. As of about two weeks ago, I have a pack of Combat Gauze in my carry-on/camera/laptop/goes-just-about-everywhere-with-me bag.
For More info: http://www.z-medica.com/newsroom/zmedica_press_releases_details.asp?pressID=79
-RJP
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I have a pack of Combat Gauze in my carry-on/camera/laptop/goes-just-about-everywhere-with-me bag.
That looks cool.
Unfortunatley we don't use that in the hospital I work at or I would "liberate" some. ;D
We use the old fashioned gauze and pressure technique and if that doesn't work we find the bleeders and cauterize them. I have some silver nitrate sticks that work pretty good on small stuff.
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Peg leg,
Kits are not at all overrated. Especially simple kits. They give you ONE PLACE for the RIGHT THINGS. There is no reason to use old surgical tubing as a tourniquet or repurposed hygiene products to stop blood loss in 2010. We're all spending a lot of money and effort and time to have guns and ammo and get to the range... the extra $40 for simple supplies and a belt pack is worth it.
-RJP
Just for the record...(not being nit picky or anything).....just to clarify..... ;) ;D
Trident said:
Kits are over rated. The only thing a basic first aid provider may need is a pressure dressing. Sounds impressive, doesn't it? Get a 'feminine hygiene pad' or Maxi-Pad (same thing I believe) and an Ace Wrap. Apply the pad, wrap the wound with the Ace Wrap and raise the injured part above the level of the heart.
Then PegLeg said:
I was told this by an EMT who was teaching a first aid/first responder class. He said they are sterile and work well.
I wasn't agreeing that kits are over rated.......I was just adding that an EMT once told me that a Maxi-Pad would work well in a 'pinch' if you didn't have anything else.
Apologies for not making myself clearer, because I keep kits in every vehicle, the house, and my shop.
A good first-aid kit is indispensable.
8)
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My bad for not double re-reading to see it more clearly......
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There area few reasons... one is the misunderstandings about the product itself another is access/expense. Personally, I think the latter is not much of an objection.
The first issue is stickier. First, the ORIGINAL quikclot product that was adopted by the military had a lot of issues, including the granular nature of the product and the exothermic reaction. Combine those two points with untrained use and you could have disastrous results that make situations worse... hence the bad rep that the product has and the mis-information that is often spread about it. The good news is that the exact product you mentioned ("combat gauze" is the proper brand name, IIRC) does NOT have loose grains that can go places you don't want them and it DOES NOT have any heat issues. It can be used in a variety of applications, not limited (to the best of my knowledge) to extremities. Going beyond that specific product, there are other brands, chemicals and delivery systems designed to help the clotting process. All of the current generation of hemostatic agents have valid applications, but they require a higher level of awareness and training than simple compression dressings.
By the way, I was laboring under a misunderstanding about some of these products, and Quikclot in particular, until very recently. As of about two weeks ago, I have a pack of Combat Gauze in my carry-on/camera/laptop/goes-just-about-everywhere-with-me bag.
For More info: http://www.z-medica.com/newsroom/zmedica_press_releases_details.asp?pressID=79
-RJP
I agree, the original product has issues. The nextgen products are much better. I knew about the gauze (thanks for the exact name and link). There are other brands - celox http://www.celoxmedical.com/prods_gauze.htm (http://www.celoxmedical.com/prods_gauze.htm) - bottom of this page has links to their other products.
There is a Quikclot "sport" product which is a clotting agent fully enclosed so it stays where it should be - term they use is a sponge. http://www.quikclot.com/finditem/24 (http://www.quikclot.com/finditem/24) . Comes in two sizes, 3.5x3.5, 5x5. I think I'd get at least two of these to cover both the entry and the exit wounds.
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We had a guy shoot himself in the leg at an IDPA match a few years back. It was at a range out in the sticks where you can't get a cell phone signal out.
I wasn't there, and I did NOT see it happen, but...boy...oh ...boy...we sure did hear about it.
Anywhoo...my point is that I keep reminding myself that whenever I go to that range, I should really have directions printed out on how to get to the nearest ER.
I am ASSuming that the ambulance guys would or could get lost getting to the range and that it would just take too long for them to finally find the range.
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I am ASSuming that the ambulance guys would or could get lost getting to the range and that it would just take too long for them to finally find the range.
Depends on how much the ambulance crew shoots? I know that the ambulance service that I'm on is one of the heaviest armed rigs in southeast Iowa. ;D Meaning about half of the crew has CCW permits and the Director is one of them. We frequent our backwoods range quite often! For pleasure not for business.
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Everyone should take the CPR, First Aid and Automatic external Defibrillator (AED). The class only costs a few bucks and keeps you up to date on new procedures and in some cases liability. If you haven't had a class lately you will be surprised on what has changed. The class covers adult thru toddlers. FWIW an IBD (Israeli battle dressing) can be invaluable.
I guess the gun class lived up to its name ;D
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@ JSC3ATLCSO
This is a private members only range with very deep pockets and expensive membership dues. They have the fancy magnetic key card gate and bunches of security cameras.
Since they are still a NON-profit, I got to look at their IRS Form 990 via www.guidestar.com . :o The club president there gets paid $50K a year. I wouldn't mind that for maintaining the range and mowing the grass. ;D
Anywhooo...no to poo-poo you or other ambulance crews/EMTS, but around here, I know how little the medics get paid, so I doubt they could actually afford the range dues.
So them NOT knowing where the range is at should something really bad happen is practically guaranteed.
All the better to have directions to the hospital printed out and inside the first aid kit.
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I REALLY need to take issue with one thing Rob posted,
"I agree with those who get the fact that semantic arguments about terminology are beneath the intelligence level of those who take safety issues seriously.
Similarly, pedantic foot stomping about "the four rules", "the three rules" and/or "the golden rule" does nothing to address the root causes of specific incidents."
That's crap. Words have meanings (to quote Rush ) For example, "Stupid" means you know better but did something dumb anyway, such as holstering a loaded gun with your finger still on the trigger.
"Ignorant" means you DIDN'T know any better and it bit you on the butt. But ignorant people use them interchangably.
That comment ignores the need to properly place responsibility for the event, and gun owners are SUPPOSED to be all about personal responsibility . If an individual is going to try to pass HIS F- up on the gun, by claiming "accident" when in fact HE SCREWED UP do you want to trust him with unsupervised possession of a loaded gun ?
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I use the Four Rules as listed on the IDPA.com website as like a checklist of when I hear of an AD/ND .
Usually for somebody to screw up badly enough for someone to get hurt or killed at least 2 but more like 3 of those rules were violated.
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That's crap. Words have meanings (to quote Rush ) For example, "Stupid" means you know better but did something dumb anyway, such as holstering a loaded gun with your finger still on the trigger.
"Ignorant" means you DIDN'T know any better and it bit you on the butt. But ignorant people use them interchangably.
That comment ignores the need to properly place responsibility for the event, and gun owners are SUPPOSED to be all about personal responsibility . If an individual is going to try to pass HIS F- up on the gun, by claiming "accident" when in fact HE SCREWED UP do you want to trust him with unsupervised possession of a loaded gun ?
-Your capital "supposed" is my point... it is an assumption or a wish, but it is not a reality. We know that gun shops sell guns to guys who don't know anything about using them and may have no concept of personal responsibility. This puts the gun in the hands of someone who is ignorant and is stupid. To me, that is a situation for shared responsibility at best. Fast forward to being on a range with someone who is reckless or ignorant of the procedures... the training partners and certainly any instructor or range officer need to assert responsibility.
I use the Four Rules as listed on the IDPA.com website as like a checklist of when I hear of an AD/ND .
Usually for somebody to screw up badly enough for someone to get hurt or killed at least 2 but more like 3 of those rules were violated.
...and that does nothing to solve the problem. As stated many times in the past, I think we need more than a list of rules and monday morning quarter backing in the area of safety.