The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: 2HOW on February 10, 2010, 01:01:59 PM
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http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2010/02/06/the-guns-of-appleseed/
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Spot on as I would expect. I have built 3 LTR's (Liberty Training Rifles) from 10/22 beginnings, and one from a Remington 597. The Marlin 60 magazine fed is becoming more popular due to it costs less than the Ruger.
-Bidah
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Looks like Mas has gotten on board. Weve been talking Appleseed over at ICCF with Sam Damewood. Mas said its a skill thats its time has come.
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It's a skill who's time never should have left. I have never had the opportunity to attend an Appleseed event, but I think it is an excellent program .
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It is n excellent program, and I have seen many new shooters come out with spanking new rifles. When I pulled it in 3 years ago we had one shoot for the year. This year I have 4 on tap and may add a 5th. I also have had inquiries from another range that would like to start as well. From all these shooters coming out our club has grown.
-Bidah
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What a great thing to run, such a shame we dont have a worthwhile organisation to support such a venture :(
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They run Appleseed not too far from where I live--about an hour-and-a-half away or so. Haz and I have talked about doing this (with Haz Jr. who would probably out-shoot us both) but we just haven't made the effort. Perhaps this will re-inspire. Gotta say with two titanium hips, getting into a prone position takes a bit of time for Crusader--but has frequently been worth the effort ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D
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I've been hearing and reading a lot about these matches recently. What exactly is "Appleseed", and how are these matches organized? I'm reading they can be shot with anything from a .22 to M1-A's, and just about everything in between. Bill T.
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www.appleseedinfo.org
Improved my rifle accuracy tremendously after the first day's instruction. Was able to get Rifleman on the 2nd day.
I'm going to take one again this spring as a refresher course.
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I've been hearing and reading a lot about these matches recently.
They aren't a match but rather a instructional shooting school. It teaches you the basics of marksmanship (traditional a la hi power shooting versus run-n-gun) along with the 4 basic positions. Sprinkle in a healthy dose of history about Americans, independence, courage to shrug off tyranny and focuses on the civilian marksman as the embodiment of that.
I've taken the class twice but with an M1A. I have gotten close to getting my rifleman patch, but not quite. Even though the round count is not high in the class (~250 or so) the heavier, higher recoil rifles really take their toll.
I've built a "Liberty Training Rifle" to practice with -- e.g., a 10/22 with Volquartsen trigger, bolt release, extended mag release, GI sling, TechSights -- and will either shoot the next class with it or maybe a 20" AR. The Liberty Rifle is the 5th one down in the picture below
(http://i32.tinypic.com/xp3kmw.jpg)
Used to be Appleseed frowned on anything but iron sights, 30 caliber rifle (M1A, M1 Garand or similar) but now they invite any rifle, any sighting arrangement.
Here's my report I posted back in 2008 on one of the classes I took:
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Just got back from the Illinois Appleseed… (long with pics)
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…and I didn’t shoot Rifleman but I did learn a lot.
I won’t spend a lot of time going over the Appleseed concept http://rwva.blogspot.com/ (that’s what the Search function is for) but I will say it does align well with what I think of rifle shooting. I’ve really come to be fond of the concept of controlling a 500 yard radius with iron sights And aimed, rapid fire, but where I shoot (northern Illinois) I’m pretty much limited to shooting off a bench and one-cartridge-in-the-magazine at a time. Unfortunately, this trend tends to breed a whole generation of “shooters” that get their AK, slap a bipod and scope on it and proceed to shoot 6” groups off a bench. While I know high power competition is a great teacher, I’ve never found the time to get in that sport. So, the Appleseed course seemed like it was tailor-made to what I am looking for.
Here’s a rundown of what we did. The school was held at Darnall’s Range outside of Bloomington, IL. http://www.darnalls.com/ The folks there were very accommodating, allowed camping and served some very hearty lunches. Weather was not too bad…high 70’s/low 80’s, rain showers on and off, hot sun when the clouds broke, a bit humid. The course went like this:
Saturday – Start with registration and range safety/rifle grounding brief from the instructors. April 19, 1775 history lesson from Fred (one of many…the man CAN tell a story). Down to the range and learn proper prone position and 6-steps to firing. Fire several 1-inch sighter targets and ball n’ dummy to check zero and technique. Fire “Redcoat” target to check prone. Learn proper sitting and standing positions with firing in between. Fire first Quick n Dirty AQT (QDAQT). Lunch. Rest of afternoon alternating qual AQT and QDAQT to reinforce techniques in all positions. End day with Redcoat and QDAQT. Another history lesson. Total round count ~ 120
Sunday – Start with history lesson. Down to range and fire a QDAQT. Drill technique. Add 3-man team drills focusing on high-stress rapid fire – these were great…run 50 yards to line, sling up, drop to prone, load and fire 10 rounds all into single target, all in 60 seconds. Object was most number of hits to 1” star. My team won…reward was first in line to lunch. More ball ‘n dummy and qual AQT then QDAQT. Finally we shot a “volley fire” Redcoat (shoot all in unison on command for AQT score…tougher than it sounds). End with history lesson. Total round count ~ 170
AQT course of fire:
All targets from 25 m range -- 100, 200, 300, 400 m simulated targets as you work your way down
100: standing -- 10 rounds
200: sitting -- 2 round/3 round with a mag change on target 1, 5 rounds on target 2
300: prone -- rapid fire 2 rounds, mag change, 1 round on target 1, 3 rounds on target 2, 4 rounds on target 3
400: slow fire prone -- 2 rounds on target 1, mag change, 2 rounds on target 2, 3 rounds on target 3, 3 rounds on target 4
Here’s what I learned:
Self Awareness – I thought I was an OK rifle shot (I’m an NRA Rifle Instructor) but I really didn’t know how I’d do from the positions with a high rate of aimed fire. I’m definitely not the best, and thankfully not the worst.
Learning New Stuff is Hard – I started out great during the sighters but, by the end of day 1, I was very discouraged. I barely shot Marksman (>125 points) on the first QDAQT and thought all was lost. Day 2, however, showed steady improvement in scores. I never shot Rifleman (210 points) but I improved by over 50%.
Little Things Matter – I finally feel comfortable using slings. NPOA is outrageously important. “Dragging wood” (trigger finger laying on stock during squeeze) will throw shots. Adjusting elevation and windage with muscles doesn’t work for long. Cadence works (firing every 2-3 seconds instead of waiting for the perfect shot “magically” seems to actually improve your scores – my best shooting was during the 60 second-running-3-man-team drills).
Equipment is Important – I’m not advocating getting all mall ninja’d up. We had a few of those guys show up…they didn’t shoot so good. Good sights, good trigger, good mags, decent ammo, knee pads, a shooting coat, a decent shooting mat will go a long way to making your day easier and let you focus on shooting. This doesn’t mean you need a $2500 rifle. It does mean that taking as many “excuses” out will let you focus on fundamentals.
Don’t Drink Lots of Coffee Before Shooting – my Venti Starbucks Dark Roast right before the first AQT of Day 2 made my legs shake so bad I couldn’t finish the standing stage.
Shooters Are Nice People – we had all kinds. White collar, blue collar. Rich, not so rich. Urban, rural. Several ethnicities. Mostly M1As, but also some Garands, an FAL, a CETME, several ARs, a 03A3, a Mauser, an AK, a bunch of .22’s. By the end of the 2 days there was a lot of camaraderie, story swapping, and genuine well-intentioned, mutual coaching. I traded business cards with several guys.
A really good program. I’ll go again. They struck a nice balance in teaching and practical exercises as well as firm instruction without being too “drill sergeant”. Here’s a few pics…I was shooting and learning so much, I didn’t have time to take more.
My first sighters compared to the guy next to me (which was fairly typical)…I started getting cocky at this point. Stupid.
This is mine
(http://i7.tinypic.com/52bgoec.jpg)
This is the guy next to me (pretty typical of others)...this is a great example of why, when people scoff at the idea of shooting a high powered rifle at 25 yards, you should say "then show me how good you are". Most will shoot like crap when they have to take the rifle off the bench, use a position/sling and use the iron sights.
(http://i15.tinypic.com/5yuq3dk.jpg)
Here’s one of the instructors showing us prone
(http://i17.tinypic.com/4umt9c0.jpg)
Compared to me…hmmm, he looked better.
(http://i15.tinypic.com/4tr4sgk.jpg)
Looking up the firing line
(http://i9.tinypic.com/539uck2.jpg)
Ball n’ dummy coaching
(http://i19.tinypic.com/54eao8y.jpg)
Standing (sitting was too painful so I didn’t have time to get the camera out)
(http://i8.tinypic.com/4tu38zr.jpg)
First Redcoat target from day 1 compared to last one on Day 2
(http://i11.tinypic.com/6gnmpus.jpg)
First QDAQT (sucky)
(http://i16.tinypic.com/67i2p1i.jpg)
Midway through 2nd day
(http://i10.tinypic.com/6ezxrfk.jpg)
Last qual and Volley Redcoat
(http://i15.tinypic.com/4p13clj.jpg)
Again, I highly recommend going. You’ll probably learn a lot.
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What is the longest distance you will shoot at an Appleseed event??
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What is the longest distance you will shoot at an Appleseed event??
The vast majority of the shooting is at 25 yards with scaled targets simulating 100, 250, 300 400, 500 yards. Some ranges end the course by applying the skills on the 100, 200 or even 300 yard line, but the whole course is about putting together a basic skill set/tool box. The focus is on sight alignment, sight picture, breathing and trigger control....and the right way to think about those. Most people can stand to have a refresher at minimum. Others need to actually learn those from instructors (I know I certainly did...everything I knew was from reading about it rather than having actual instruction).
I know a lot of people who scoff at the idea of shooting a rifle at 25 yards. However -- look at the first 2 pictures in my range report on page 1. Pic 1 is my sighter target...pic 2 is the guy's next to me. Picture 2 was very typical of a majority of shooters at the range...and these were NOT new shooters. They were, however, shooters that are in the "modern" vein of shooting...e.g., off a bench with scopes.
Shooting a rifle with iron sights using a sling from standing, sitting, prone ... is HARD. Even at 25 yards. There is a reason that the Rifleman patch is valued...it isn't easy to do. Folks that scoff at 25 yards, I say...show me you have the 25 yard AQT mastered then I'll believe you can do the same at longer yardages.
Appleseed is best thought of a gateway to true long range shooting where you start thinking through range estimation, wind, mirage, etc. It has also taught me that most internet commandos that bluster about their shooting ability...are full of it.
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Thanks KPR I think I need to set up a 25 yrd range and practice.
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Here's the correctly scaled targets for the 25 yard AQT...download the attached pdf
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I'm a little bummed. I was thinking of the OTHER Appleseed.
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2972/appleseedx.jpg) (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/appleseedx.jpg/)
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I'm going to attend one of these shoots. It looks like a lot of informal fun with a bunch of good people. Bill T.
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I would be Kilo that you got to be instructed by my good friends "The Guy" and "Garand69". I will say that the groups you showed are typical, especially on the first day, regardless if they are using irons or scopes. We have one range here in Montana that they let the Rifleman, or ones that are showing promise, shoot out to 400, 500, 600, and 1000.
-Bidah
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Yup, The Guy was one of my instructors. Good guy.