The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on February 16, 2010, 05:03:21 PM
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Today, I go out to lunch with my mom. We hit our local Fridays, which has an early happy hour with cheap appetetizers and, $3 barefoot chard for her and Sam Adams for me. Knowing we were going to have a couple, I leave the gun at home (legal to drive does not equal legal to carry). So, we return to my mom's house. Shes pulling into her drive (blinker on) and this idiot blows by on her left. She almost hits him and gives a short beep. We pull into the house, and the very manly mini-cooper ::) backs up. Out gets this bald, muscle bound guy in his thirties wearing scrubs. Me, Im not driving, I didn't honk and figured I could easily deescalate this with a smile and a soft word. While I was a little uneasy with the guys body language, I was not particularly worried by a white guy in scrubs driving a high dollar car in an upper middle class neighborhood. Bzzzt! Wrong answer!
The guy is in my face, like baseball umpire, or DI in my face, before I'd said howdy, and when I simply mentioned my mom had beeped because she almost hit him, no accusation, no profanity, best soothing "cop voice" I have, he shoves me on my ass (laugh it up Eric ;D). He seemed to semi-come to his senses and offered a hand up, which I declined. He still has the "I'm going to kick your ass" body language (which he could have, because hello, muscle bound, and the attitude might have come from 'roid rage, asshat or not, the guy was built). Any way, he keeps asking "is That my fault? Is it?", while my mom is freaking, and while he was retreating, he definately wanted an answer so he would have an excuse to recomense hosilities, you could see it in his eyes and body lanuage. One word and it would have been game on. I just dialled 911 instead. He made no move to stop me, just kept asking, if it was his fault to us both while I was on the horn with dispatch, giving the address ::). He left. Deferring (against my better judgement) to my mom, I told the operator he'd apologized and left (he did offer me a hand up ::)) and that I was happy with the situation. She explained that she didn't want to put the guy in jail for 90 days for simple battery and then have him get out and come looking for payback. Hard to argue with the logic.
I, on the other hand, was thoroughlly embarrassed. I made three dumb mistakes.
1 I let him get way too close, as in noses touching close. This was the smallest mistake as there was no way to back up without striking first or running, neither of which was an option, but still lesson learned.
2 I watched the guys face, not his arms. I thought he wanted to yell, not fight and so I tried to keep a steady eye contact and deescalat. This means I wasn't watching his hands. A shove I could have blocked or avoided went right through. DUMB mistake.
3 I listened to my mom and didn't have his ass thrown in jail.
The lesson learned from this was also a little scary. At the end of the day I was right in my assesment that I could descalate this. I just didn't realize that something this harmless initially, would end with me having a very sore tail bone and the cops on the phone. However, if I had been carrying......, Once I hit the ground I realized this guy was crazy and my 68 year old mother was the one he was pissed at. When I ignored his hand, he turned away. Instead of just getting up, the hand would have been in the right pocket and there would have been zero warning since he was within shoving distance, and I definately was afraid of the crazy muscle bound guy (he'd probably have kicked my ass when I was 20 and in great shape, now no question). This woke me right the hell up. It was descalated, BUT it could have gone south if he decided to beat one or both of us to death, or if I'd shot his ass. Se la vie.
FQ13 who still isn't sure whether he should be pissed about not carrying today :-\
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wow........I have to think about this for awhile..
We always hear things like this and boldly talk smack saying "well If I was there I would have blah blah...
But I also know that when it comes on you this fast ..I don't think many of us would actually KNOW what is the right thing to do.. especially if your mom is there too, ...
I'd of hated to escalate it.. but then again.. he already had the jump on you with the surprise effect ..
I don't know what I would have done..
By the way.. excellent posting of it all.. I really felt like I got a first hand feel for it..
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Well FQ13, you will never know how it would of worked if you were carrying. I dint know how it is in your state, but here in Montana. If I had seen him get out of his car and look at all threatening I could have either displayed my gun or I could have drawn on him from a safe distances and hopefully it would ended right there. Glad to see you and your mother are all right. Next time lock your gun in the car when your in for lunch. Its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
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Glad your mostly alright. In most places, this probably wouldn't have warranted introduction of a firearm. Especially, here in CA. This guy probably did need to taste the law. He may live as a bully all of the time and may eventually go much further on someone else.
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Things could have been worse. Be glad you came away with nothing more serious than a sore ass and a bruised ego.
You are correct in your post-incident assessment. The important thing is that you learn from this experience and add the knowledge to your arsenal of skills.
Glad you weren't hurt worse than you were.
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You're lucky you had a witness, otherwise it "wouldn't have happened". Good lessons learned.
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You may think you made mistakes, but I think you got the most important thing right....you lived to post another day.
Live & learn & let it go.... 8)
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Quaker,
I'm sorry this happened to you and that it happened in front of your mother. I'm glad you're alright, though I'm sure your pride is a bit sore more than anything. This episode brought to mind a confrontation I had several years ago, and it is one of the main reasons I carry now- some guy at a gas station threatened to kill me because he believes I took his spot at the air pump.... ::)
I know we have the "no duty to retreat law" in Florida, but I'm not so sure how it would have worked out with you pulling a gun (hypothetically) on a person who gave no indication they were armed or were not threatening your life nor your mother's.
I hope you remember his face well....
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Quaker,
I'm sorry this happened to you and that it happened in front of your mother. I'm glad you're alright, though I'm sure your pride is a bit sore more than anything. This episode brought to mind a confrontation I had several years ago, and it is one of the main reasons I carry now- some guy at a gas station threatened to kill me because he believes I took his spot at the air pump.... ::)
I know we have the "no duty to retreat law" in Florida, but I'm not so sure how it would have worked out with you pulling a gun (hypothetically) on a person who gave no indication they were armed or were not threatening your life nor your mother's.
I hope you remember his face well....
See this is the thing Fullauto, I wouldn't have shot him because I was pissed, or my pride was injured. It happened way to fast for that. I was still in full bore WTF mode. I mean, it wasn't like my mom leaned on the horn, or flipped him off. It was a gentle beep when he'd almost caused a wreck. I didn't yell, didn't ""bow up" posture wise, and gave him my name and asked if I could help, and explained the beep. Next I know, his nose is litteraly touching mine, his face is red, spit is coming out of his mouth, and I'm on my ass. If it were just me, the gun would probably have stayed where it was. BUT, I knew that the one he was REALLY pissed at was my mother. No way I could stop him physically without a weapon. So, what to do? Thats why I posted this. I know the first question asked by the cops would be "Why shoot an unarmed man"? My answer was that he was strong, behaving irrationally and assaulted me with zero provocation (on my mom's property BTW) and I had no reason to think my life and hers wasn't in danger. Its still a close call. Short of me learning how to beat up a guy 10 years younger and in better shape than most folks on this board overnight, what's the consensus advice?
FQ13 who really is stumped here for the "right" answer and still isn't really pissed at the guy or embarrassed (I wouldn't have posted if I was). Thing is, he was bigger, stronger and younger than me, nothing to be ashamed of there. Second, I'm still more wondering "who pissed in his cheerios"? than be mad. It was just a weird day.
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FQ, you handled it well and should be proud of yourself for maintaining your head in a really tough situation. I think you just came up with a marvelous scenario for a future Best Defense episode. I'd love to hear from Michael J and Rob on this one.
Get some Ben Gay on that bruise and be grateful that you are both alright. I'm still betting if you had drawn a pistol on this nut job that he would have shown his true colors and backed down......on the other hand.......
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Maybe Pepper-Spraying this idiot would have been a more practical approach? Thanks for the hand up you schmuck, drive home with your eyeballs burning out of your skull, but be thankful your still alive type thing.
Glad you and your mother are well. This seems like a perfect op for that type of app.
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You needed to be holding your Blackthorn, FQ. Just that might have been sufficient to give him pause long enough for your smile and words to settle things down.
I carry mine all the time, but I CCW all the time too. Carry it in my left hand used as a walking stock/cane.
My sister asked when I hurt my leg and I told her I didn't. It was part of my new "image".
Glad he decided to address his issues with you rather than your mother.
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Hey, this guy didn't have New Hampshire plates did he?
;D
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Maybe Pepper-Spraying this idiot would have been a more practical approach? Thanks for the hand up you schmuck, drive home with your eyeballs burning out of your skull, but be thankful your still alive type thing.
Glad you and your mother are well. This seems like a perfect op for that type of app.
Pepper spray would have been useless. It just makes a pissed off asshat into a more pissed off asshat. The range was too close, he would have charged and grappled, given how pumped he was on adrenelin (or substance X). It was definately a "don't pull it if you don't mean to use it" kind of deal and Waay too close. I was on my ass at his feet, either stop him or use your mouth. The mouth worked (with a little help from 911 dispatch ;)), but pepper spray was not in the cards, it was just too close and too fast. I just assumed someone wearing a doctor's clothes, driving a doctor's car, in a doctor's neighborhood wouldn't go ape over being honked at by a 68 year old woman driving a mini-van. Wrong call.
FQ13 who now stands against profiling since you can't trust any of the bastards ;D
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FQ: THE MAIN THING IS THAT YOU & YOUR MOM ARE OK. KUDOS FOR TRYING TO DEESCALATE THE ISSUE. THE TOUNGUE IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD BUT SOMETIMES THE TOUNGE CANNOT PENTRATE THE MIND OF SOMEONE WHO IS HIGH, GOT A CHIP ON THEIR SHOULDER, ROID RAGE, EMOTIONALLY UPSET, ETC.
BETTER A BRUISED EGO (TAIL-BONE) THAN A KNIFE IN THE GUT :-\
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Alright, the OC wouldn't have worked.
"You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or use any other word you think will work, but I've found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone's head is pretty much the universal language."
Carry next time.
P.S. Kiss your Mom.
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FQ, 1st glad you and mom are ok, 2nd, there are no perfect answers, just solutions, yours was a positive solution, could have gone south but did not. So you had a positive solution with a sore butt. Could haves, sure, some OC spray, very practical, Moms covering you with a crimson trace anything pistol, even a stun gun. High intensity flashlight, etc... it is the times we are not prepared and it happens, that teaches the deepest lessons. Look forward to your new, approach/solution. As you reflect and get suggestions here.
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FQ, 1st glad you and mom are ok, 2nd, there are no perfect answers, just solutions, yours was a positive solution, could have gone south but did not. So you had a positive solution with a sore butt. Could haves, sure, some OC spray, very practical, Moms covering you with a crimson trace anything pistol, even a stun gun. High intensity flashlight, etc... it is the times we are not prepared and it happens, that teaches the deepest lessons. Look forward to your new, approach/solution. As you reflect and get suggestions here.
My mother covering me,or better still, herself is a pipe dream (FQ who wants the beating head against a wall emoticon here). Despite growing up with guns, the woman just ain't geared for violence. She was sobbing hysterically afterwards and convinced it was her fault. took a while to talk her down ans explain that the guy was just an asshole. What for me was an irritating, and definately a WTF, how do I train for this, deal, was traumatic for her. No way I can get her to carry or even own a gun (again insert head/wall emoticon). I thought today night be a "teachable moment". No such luck. :-\
FQ13
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FQ - WOW! I'm glad the situation worked itself out in the end.
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I'm sure you might have looked at this already, FQ, but how about Janich/Bane/Pincus directions about keeping potential threats at arms length next time? I was thinking about your situation and what I would do under your conditions at the time:
1. Get out of the vehicle raising my awareness.
2. The moment you saw the guy backing up, especially coming into your mom's yard, have HER call the cops.
3. Ask him what he wants and tell him stop and get out of your yard. No way does he penetrate your safety zone.
4. If he keeps coming try to get some distance from him and be sure you are between him and your mother.
5. He's bigger than you? Kick/punch him in the balls or gouge his eyes. Either one will get his ass to stop.
You know going through this makes me think about my mom, and she is similar to your mother. You are kind of like me also in that you want to analyze why he is being an asshole when you should be proactively taking steps to stop him. I learned long ago from taking too many ass whippings that some people only understand one thing and that is a fist or the barrel of a gun.
Obviously this is just a sincere, and probably inadequate, solution to your problem but I thought I put it out here...
P.S. Please consult an experienced criminal defense attorney in your area......
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I have a different take on this. Again, not knowing the specifics of FL law, here's how I would see it, since he made a point of:
1. stopping
2. backing up
3. getting out of his car
4. trespassing on your Mom's property
This was clear assault with intent and since your Mom was driving and was the one to use the horn, a reasonable person could be justified in showing (and using) deadly force. After he threw the punch and maintained his presence trespassing - absolutely. Draw, subdue and call 911.
Next time forgo the Sam Adams and pack.
Glad you both are safe. And also glad to see it's not just people here on DRTV you manage to piss off, even if by proxy!!!! ;D
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I like FullAuto's 1, 2, and 3 as you are doing the defining and it is important to tell the offender to get off your property. In the final analysis the dude had his way with you and left on his own terms.
If you're caught in the open like that I think the key is keeping distance, not letting him close. If he does you have hard choices but if you couldn't make distance and pepper spray him with Fox Labs 10% maybe staying in the car with the windows rolled up......?
I've fogged my way out of trouble with more than 50 serious dog attacks... I'd trust it to pre-occupy someone long enough to either administer a nut kick or a get away.
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I gotta ask...does the mom's house have a garage?
I only ask this because if there was a garage and she pulled the car in, if you had stayed inside the garage and he crossed that "threshold" where the garage door meets the driveway....then that would have been a much, much different story.
Also, I take it that mom has no external video cameras on her house. It would have been nice to have caught that on videotape (or DVR), and taken it to the police.
I've got two different stories about garages that I could thread drift this into, but I won't. Let's just say that the next house I get, it's going to have a garage.
Glad to hear you are alright FQ. Thanks for sharing your story with us.
Oh...and some food for thought...back when I used to be into forensic psychology and I used to punch cases into ViCap...most of your "predators" will take out the most viable threatening prey first (that would be you), and then they move onto the weaker witness/victim next. This was most noticeable or mostly advertised with the movies and documentaries about the Zodiac killer.
So...you're not just fighting for yourself...you'd be fighting for your mom too.
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He was Aggressive, physically violent, and considerably larger, than you . If you shot him from the ground the cops would have done the paperwork and told you to have a nice day.
If you are going to get the CCW
CARRY THE F-CKING THING !
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FQ, glad you and your mother are ok. Just goes to show why awareness is so important and keeping distance.
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Can't even imagine and am afraid to think what I'd have done!
Glad all went well.
Richard
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FQ, the good part is neither your Mom nor you were seriously injured. Pride does count, but not as much as physical injury. As you know, here in Florida we have no duty to retreat, and the "castle doctrine" extends to your vehicle. So, you might have had some 'splainin' to do, but you probably would not face a judge if you shot the b@st@rd--that is, if you didn't smell of Sam Adams when you pulled the trigger. The smell of alcohol would, I think, change the results. So, in this case, you were probably lucky.
However, if you would have drawn your weapon the instant he got out of his car (with a 'roid rage crazed look) I feel rather confident that he would have immediately got back in his vehicle and driven off. If he didn't, at that point you would know you had a real nutcase on your hands and two to center mass and one to the head would have been an appropriate.
I guess what I am saying here is that although it is against Florida law to carry at a bar, it's important to remember the "concealed" nature of carrying. You could have left the piece in the car while you were inside, and re-armed yourself when you got back into the vehicle if you want to respect the letter of the law. But, you should always have your piece with you. Even in church.
Always carry. Always be aware of your surroundings, FQ, and when anything looks a little odd, be prepared to draw. And give your Mom a kiss and some flowers and tell her she did just the right thing.
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This is a sticky situation. I'm not sure about Florida laws, but in my neck of the woods with an incident like this I normally could not bring a gun into the mix unless he has a weapon or is going after the old lady (threat of death or severe harm).
BUT.... The major difference here is that it was on your private property and not in the public square. I think if it had been me and I was packing, I would have presented a firearm immediately before he could even get on the lawn. If he still wanted to go, then he made the decision to advance on someone with a gun, and i would have used lethal force for fear of him getting the gun away from me and killing me and my mom (The way I remember it he was yelling that as he charged me across the yard ;) )
*Important to note: In my neck of the woods, its not brandishing if it is on your own property.... I can literally mow my lawn with an AK over my shoulder if I wanted to (Note to self... Buy an AK).
I think you did all you could with what you had to work with..... Yes, you could have possibly prepared your stance a little better to defense against an attack, but now you know. So, just relax, Quaker....... I'm sure this was not the first time you got f***ed and ended up with a sore butt, and it probably wont be the last ;D
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Consider it a learning experience.
OC does work, that’s why cops carry it. Get yourself some FOX OC and hose the SOB down before he gets to wrestling distance. NO WARNING OR THREATS. Just blast away and move off the line of attack. Go in the house with Mom, call the police and lock the doors.
We all learn more from or mistakes than our successes. I’m glad you and your mother are OK FQ13.
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This is a sticky situation. I'm not sure about Florida laws, but in my neck of the woods with an incident like this I normally could not bring a gun into the mix unless he has a weapon or is going after the old lady (threat of death or severe harm).
BUT.... The major difference here is that it was on your private property and not in the public square. I think if it had been me and I was packing, I would have presented a firearm immediately before he could even get on the lawn. If he still wanted to go, then he made the decision to advance on someone with a gun, and i would have used lethal force for fear of him getting the gun away from me and killing me and my mom (The way I remember it he was yelling that as he charged me across the yard ;) )
*Important to note: In my neck of the woods, its not brandishing if it is on your own property.... I can literally mow my lawn with an AK over my shoulder if I wanted to (Note to self... Buy an AK).
I think you did all you could with what you had to work with..... Yes, you could have possibly prepared your stance a little better to defense against an attack, but now you know. So, just relax, Quaker....... I'm sure this was not the first time you got f***ed and ended up with a sore butt, and it probably wont be the last ;D
[/quoteEric
As much as I hate to admit it, that last line was actually funny as hell. ;D
FQ13 whose only bruised (externally) butt experience involved this girl in grad school with way too many tattoos and piercings and............I'll just be in the corner with a goofy grin on my face. ;D
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Glad to hear that it turned out okay without anyone getting seriously hurt. I still would have pursued the legal angle on this moron. And if he wanted to come back for "revenge" that's when he would be carried out and with the history there is no way you would be facing any charges for defending yourself.
In Colorado it is okay to drink and carry as long as you are not under the influence so having A beer at lunch would not be a problem. Fortunately most of the bars downtown (where all of the fighting occurs and where I never go) ban fire arms and have metal detector at the door.
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As much as I hate to admit it, that last line was actually funny as hell. ;D
Its funny cause you're gay. ;D
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Its funny cause you're gay. ;D
That Eric, not funny, and not true. You know me well enough to know I'd admit it if I was, just to stir the pot. ;) Hell I admitted to voting for BO, and look how well that turned out. Its far worse than being gay. :-\ Know when to quit man.
FQ13
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That Eric, not funny, and not true. You know me well enough to know I'd admit it if I was, just to stir the pot. ;) Hell I admitted to voting for BO, and look how well that turned out. Its far worse than being gay. :-\ Know when to quit man.
FQ13
Panties in a wad ::)
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Mini-Cooper!!! You should've kicked his ass!
At least you tried to defuse the situation. Who the hell gets themselves in a rage over a car honk? Drink at home, not in public, where you don't endanger yourself and perhaps your mother. Good response to your situation though.
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Mini-Cooper!!! You should've kicked his ass!
Tex, it would have taken me, you and probably Rob to kick this guys ass. Seriously, only about 5' 9'', but built like damn fire plug. When you can see muscels through scrubs? Someone has been spending waaay too much time at the gym. Mini-Cooper was grounds for an ass kicking I'll grant you, but I wasn't going to be the one to do it. ;D
FQ13
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I'm glad you're OK and Mom is doing well.
However, in all my 53 years of life and 37 years of driving, I've not found a GOOD reason to use the horn on my automobile.
My suggestion, disconnect the thing, they usually are used for all the wrong reasons. The guy probably had no idea he nearly hit your Moms car and probably thought the opposite when she honked. End result....raging thicknecked dickhead who probably has a problem with Poly Sci Professors... ;D
Be safe and carry regardless of where you're going. If your gonna be drinking, do it at home.
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Panties in a wad ::)
An unecessary post on my part. My bad. :-\
sorry
FQ13
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An unecessary post on my part. My bad. :-\
sorry
FQ13
TAB: 1
Quaker: 0
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11267.msg147497#msg147497
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I think you handled the situation the best it could be.
One thing to look into though:
It was my understanding, for what that is worth, if the establishment's primary revenue is NOT alcohol it is still legal to carry. Sloppies Bar-no, Applebees-yes Of course matter of imparement too. One beer with lunch dinner-maybe, multiple drinks and no food-no
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Still think hosing this wannabe tough guy could have had a good dose of that OC spray like Dog the Bounty Hunter carries. Like the old phrase goes I don;t care how big and bad you are, .....
you can't fight when you can't see, and your face is on fire.
Than you could have offered him some water, which would have made it even worse....
This kinda crap follows you around FQ, is it kharma for all that crap you got away with back in the day?
::)
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I am glad you are ok. Thank you for posting this for others to learn.
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Quaker,
In addition to talking to an experienced criminal defense attorney in your area, I recommend the book Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership Sixth Ed.- 2009 (ISBN 0-9641958-4-4) by Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq. This book is considered a "standard" in the legal profession in Florida when it comes to firearms ownership and use.
Read the whole book but especially pages 185 - 252 which addresses using deadly force.
www.floridafirearmslaw.com
Good luck!
-FullAuto
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Another reason I don't drink or go to bars. I don't have to leave my gun at home. Don't honk at people; don't holler at people; if he hollers at you don't ask what he said, EVEN IF YOU ARE HARD OF HEARING; Don't stop to help strangers on the side of the road especially after dark, even if they look to need help. They are probably just arguing with their drug dealer. You can't do these things in this day and age. You CAN'T Be nice to people you don't know. It's 2010, NOT 1953. All of these things just give stupid people an excuse to assault you. "Look! I'm a badass and I never matured past 14. Aren't you proud of me? Hey, Let's fight!" One of the reasons I can't stand my brother, and don't go to bars (Means more people like my brother.). People suck....