The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: willzp on February 16, 2010, 07:44:00 PM
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I would love to know what you should actually do when you have a bad guy at gun point and how you should prepare for the police.
for insistence if iam holding him (bad guy) at gun point and the police knock on the door or enter my home (even if i have told them iam the good guy and also told the 911 dispatch what i was wearing, often times those things are never get told to the police correctly) Most cops are pretty jumpy now days and seem to shoot first which in most cases i don't blame them, I just don't want to let my guard down until the police get there to take over.
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Hello willzp, welcome to DRTV. Most of us hope to never encounter this, however, having a predetermined plan is going to be helpful.
If you called 911, do not hang-up, set the phone down and tend to your immediate threat. Have your wife/girlfriend, etc,.. stay on the phone, and give them a description of you. This is a difficult thing but get the BG on the ground arms spread, if he doesn't comply, and runs, you still can't shoot as your life is not in immediate danger if he is fleeing out the door, and will come back to haunt you.
BE AWARE OF EVERYTHING.
Very "in the moment" depending on the exact scenario. Prepare for them all, and by all means, if you or your family is directly threatened, protect yourself with all means necessary.
"I have an intruder in my home at gunpoint, I am the homeowner in a white T-shirt and boxer shorts, with blonde hair, my name is "XXX"....
When the Police arrive, very SLOWLY place the gun down and keep your hands in plain view. You must be very cognitive of your every move, despite the adrenaline, fear, etc,.. BE COOL!!! It will be hard not to scream THAT"S HIM!! THAT"S HIM!!
Don't do it.
Remain QUIET, the cops are going to consider you a threat until they secure the scene. Let them. They might even handcuff you until it sorts out. Again, STAY COOL!
Rob Pincus has several posts here, as well as many other resources that go into this further. The big thing is, when the cops show up, put the gun the hell down, and keep as calm as possible. The cops are going to take charge as soon as they get there, and will secure the scene first. Breathe and think. Do not volunteer a chat session with the cops. Think, and answer their questions.
BE COOL. Stay on the phone, put the gun down when the cops get there and STAY COOL.
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Advice - Don't tell the police anything. Just make the 911 call and then call your attorney before the police get there. When the police arrive be courteous but just tell them you want an attorney. Let them sort it out the details without your comments. Talking to the police without legal council can only lead to trouble even if you are in the right.
The advice from my permit to carry instructor was to have an attorney's phone number on your phone speed dial. Use it if you discharge your gun.
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Just tell them "this guy broke into my house, I was in fear of my life and I want to talk to my attorney before I say anything else" the STFU, and make sure every one else in the house is on the same page and also SHUTS UP.
You have the right to remain silent ( DO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY ? )
Anything you say will be used against you (NOTICE IT DOESN'T"T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING USED FOR YOU ? )
Lawyers get paid big bucks for talking to cops, let him earn his money.
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in season 1 of TBD ( on disk one from memory )
they go over this as well it is quite good to see
also welcome to DRTV mate :)
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First Thing: don't be standing there with a gun out when the police come around the corner. If you have warnings (siren, lights, verbal...) get the gun back into your holster and your hands in clear sight. We did do a segment on this in the first season of TBD which I thought covered the tactical side pretty well.
After the tacitcal part, You MUST talk to the police to establish your role, the fact that you were under lethal threat and for various other reasons including the identification of witness and pieces of evidence. The advice to not talk to the place is bad advice that has no basis. If you don't establish your role, you will almost certainly be arrested and that is a game changer. Once you are arrested (not just detained ), then you can clam up. The magic moment is when you are advised of your rights under the Miranda decision, at that point you can wait for the lawyer. You can avoid being arrested by simply establishing your role as a victim who was acting in justified defense. I suggest the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network for more accurate information on the legal issues. I recently did a DVD with founder (and firearms instructor) Marty Hayes. Marty also writes for Personal Defense Network.
-RJP
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I stand corrected...
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Rob,
Great advice, I learned a lot from that segment as well. My concern would be the time between when the police arrive and when you need to holster your weapon and the window of opportunity it presents to the bad guy. I am fine with him/her getting away, but do not want them to attack when I am waiting for the police.
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I'm not a really big fan of holstering a weapon after an incident in your home (I don't have a holster that fits with my BVDs or my PJs). I DO believe you need to put the gun down when the cavalry arrives. You are then able to step away from it with your hands in full view.
Paraguy - The police will announce themselves when they arrive - Something like "POLICE! POLICE!" before that you will hear their sirens hopefully. If you have someone at gunpoint order them to look away from you, face down, kiss the floor and hands way, I MEAN WAY above their heads or hands WAY out to their sides, like they are forming a cross. If they can't see you they don't know if you still have the gun pointed at them.
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I was looking for the link to the You Tube video to clarify my previous post, but I ran across these threads which seems to be on this topic.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=5553.0
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4592.0
Here's what I was looking for ;D,
First, the Law Prof.
Then, the Cop,
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The state of Ohio says that it is considered self defense and all you have to say is I felt in fear for my life. If you call us and then when we get there tell us you will not talk to us without your lawyer.
1. Usually hardened criminals make the statement I want a lawyer. So now you have verbally clued the officer to the fact that you are possibly a hardened criminal, which you are not but it appears that way.
2. You called us, we can not read your mind. I show up and have a guy pointing a gun at someone and no one talks to me they just tell me they want to talk to a lawyer. Everybody is going into cuffs until I find out what the hell is going on. I am going home at the end of my shift so I am going to do what is safe for me. So explain what is going on, it is your property and life that was in danger.
3. The bad guy may lie and now I am looking at you as the agressor. You are not saying anything until your lawyer gets there. Lawyers are making money off of you and I have not seen one yet come out to do house calls or come to a jail in the middle of the night or on a weekend where I live unless he is a family member. Their home number is probally unlisted like mine. The more business they drum up the more they make.
4. Bad guy may start telling me a story that he was minding his own business and you kidnapped him. I do not know who called for help, it is not like there is a sign on thier head.
5. You were in fear for your life and it was self defense.
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Thanks bulldog.
Everybody is going into cuffs until I find out what the hell is going on.
By not saying anything at all, you will spend the night in jail, and most of the next day or so, until the LEO's have finished their investigation.
Which is now going to include the BG's statements, and he is and will say anything to save his sorry ass. "He kidnapped me to be a sex slave type crap" Either way this costs TIME for you behind bars waiting for it all to settle out.
I am just saying don;t volunteer anything extra. BE COOL and THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.
5. You were in fear for your life and it was self defense.
Give a BRIEF explanation of your threat, and how it happened. "Heard my glass sliding door open at 2:41 a.m. and someone in my house. I retrieved my sidearm and XYZ......and felt my life was in immediate danger". Than a BRIEF statement that" I am a bit shakin' up right now and wish to just remain quiet at this time".
Than go hug your wife and children. If you are cuffed or put into the back of the car at that point, as others posted. You are no longer obligated to say a damn thing, and I wouldn't until I had my lawyer.
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twyacht What I am saying is if you do not tell me what the hell is going on then I have no idea who to arrest. Tell me what is going on and I will arrest the bad guy. But if everybody is sitting there with there head up there arse then I am going to do something. I will not put cuffs on you, if you tell me what you just typed, you are in the right and I see it that way, but you have to tell me. Bad advice by some sleazy attorneys is a killer. They want you to do something wrong to get business. I have seen attorneys give the worst advice and rake the money in. A 50 dollar ticket and a attorney cost a kid 1200 dollars to walk into the court room to plead guilty.
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Rob was right with his statement and follow those guide lines.
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I agree with you bulldog, pulling up to scene that is like a bad episode of the COPS tv show, or a Jerry Springer episode, I would put everyone in the back seat just to get them to STFU. :-X
I hope to never have to go through a frantic 911 call, arm myself and defend my family. But, I do practice and train to do so, along with what to say and how to act when the police show up.
IMHO, I will speak to the police give my side of the story, but be cognitive of what I say, and how I say it. Not as a negative reflection of any LEO, but as what I say can and will be used against me if I run my mouth and say something stupid.
For example, if you roll up and I start saying "I busted that *&&^*(*, caught his stupid &^%, showed him, lucky I didn't kill him" and otherwise running my mouth like an idiot, that is not good, and you are trained to kinda notice stuff like that. Attitude, demeanor, state of mind, reactions, etc,...
You guys, Rob included, "work and train (in the zone)", I don't. So I am only saying cooperation is required, but if I'm standing there in my boxer's with cops all over my house, my pistol impounded, and my wife freaking out, I am going to BE COOL.
Stay Safe bulldog, and thanks again.
tw
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Kentucky has castle law... meaning if they are not police and are uninvited, I can safely assume they are there to do bodily harm to me or my family and deadly force is authorized.
However, being as I would not want to live knowing i took a life that could have been avoided, I would hope the criminal will accept my offer to handcuff himself til the police arrive. I will be sure he is a safe distance for me to react and laying on his stomach with his cuffed hands behind his back, thus allowing me to safley holster my weapon or lay it on a table near by so that when the cops arrive i am not an armed target.
then i follow the idea of simply answer the officers questions in a respectful manner until he reads you the miranda rights, only then do you lawyer up. This is just how i think.
also remember, if you are forced to defend yoruself, make sure he doesnt survive to sue you for shooting him while he was trying to kill you...
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I am not impounding your firearm just getting a picture of it for the report and returning it to you.
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I am not impounding your firearm just getting a picture of it for the report and returning it to you.
And so what if they do impound it? Its evidence (paticularly if it was fired). As long as the BG is in cuffs and I'm not, they can have it. Maybe I'll get back, maybe I wont'. If I use it once in that set of circumstances, I 've gotten my money's worth. I have others, and can always replace it. I'm not arguing with the cops about a gun. I just would like a reciept with a serial #.
FQ13
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if they do so be it. I prefer not to leave a man defenseless. Bad guys freinds may decide on payback.
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I think the best way is to make your position clear..."Officer, I'm the complainant. I will file a formal complaint. This guy did x,y,and z." Be cooperative. Say enough to make your "case", but not so much that you're just running off at the mouth. If they take my gun as evidence, I might just have another laying around someplace.
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OK, so it's been a busy weekend for me. First the RSO class yesterday, and today a Utah CCW class so I can (eventually, when I get it in the mail) have a permit to carry in MN. Apparently MN is still fighting some 30+ year old fish and border war with ND and refuses to recognize ND's permit, even though they will recognize the permit from any state as long as there is reciprocity.
But I digress. The instructor today told us a bunch of stuff today on this. Here's what I remember.
Basically - say nothing. Yes you will get cuffed and probably arrested. But, and he emphasized this (BTW, he is a retired lawyer and does do a lot of work with state police and other permitting authorities like Utah's BCI) that the one thing you will not control is the adrenaline rush and dump. Cops are even trained to wait a short time - say 10-30 minutes after they arrive - to leave you alone so the dump happens at which point you will even talk about your mother. You will not be able to stop.
Two things to remember -
1. In an officer involved shooting, the policy, procedure or union demand (it is the policy (IIRC) of the US Assoc. of Police Chiefs) is to let the officer have 24 hours before he makes a statement. If the officer gets to, why not the civilian?
2. There is a book by someone named Reid that basically outlines how to get people to talk (http://www.amazon.com/Criminal-Interrogation-Confessions-Fred-Inbau/dp/0763747211 (http://www.amazon.com/Criminal-Interrogation-Confessions-Fred-Inbau/dp/0763747211)). Not confess, just get them talking. Once talking, the rest comes easily. Silly things, like posting a picture of someone famous with the interrogating officer (example, Jennifer Aniston smooching a smiling police sergeant - easy to do with Photoshop these days). Hey, I would ask WTF? Also tougher things that force you to respond viscerally and/or emotionally.
Since police can lie to you (e.g. telling you that someone else made a damning statement about your actions - even tho no such statement was made), and you absolutely, positively cannot even fudge anything (or you go to jail for lying during the investigation), it behooves you to remain silent as much as possible. When they tell you - as they must if you are a suspect - that anything you say can and will be used against you - Believe Them!. It will.
From the lawyer, limit the on-scene statement to -
1. This BG attacked me
2. I was in fear for my life
3. I want my lawyer (or words to that effect)
Do not volunteer witnesses either unless they were standing right next to you and could hear and see what you heard and saw. And maybe not even then. Tell your lawyer (said the lawyer), though.
Exception to the no talking rule - If the BG had a weapon and was able to throw it away, tell the cops where it went.
That's what he told us today about this.
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."Officer, I'm the complainant. I will file a formal complaint. This guy did x,y,and z."
Thanks, Saltydog.. I forgot that part in my first post... Another important piece!