The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Paraguy on February 18, 2010, 05:04:11 PM
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I have decided to get a S&W snubby to replace my not so compact Subcompact H&K. I have decided S&W is the way to go, but am debating whether or not it is worth the extra expense to get one in .357 or if .38+P is adequate. I can easily handle a .357 but am concerned with such a small frame that if I miss on the first shot that I am a goner. On the other hand, I like the knock down power of the .357 vs. .38.
Am I making too big of a deal out of the recoil issue cause adrenaline will overcome anything in the heat of battle?
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Paraguy, you don't have to carry .357 in a .357 but the option to use .357 is to some a good thing. There are many quality .38 +p loads out there to choose from with a speed strip/loader of .357 JIC.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
PS: Being a Paraguy what is wrong with the Carry9? Pretty small in itself.
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Hey Paraguy,
I love the .357 rounds as well. My .02 cents with regard to a snubbie, is remember the application it was designed for: which is close quarters.
Yes we have all seen the posts of long range snubbie shooting, but that's at a gun range not a supermarket parking lot, or ATM, bedroom, when a critical threat is in your face, etc,... The recoil from my Taurus M85 .38 with Remington 125gr +P Golden Sabres is stout! Much more stout than standard .38 rounds. Which are pretty darn snappy, but all very manageable.
I fired some snub 357's, and it's a hand cannon for sure. If your comfortable with that, can follow up quickly, and even shoot one handed,weak handed, not traditional stances, than get the larger caliber, and practice, plus you can always put 38's in it and utilize the two calibers as needed.
Mine doubles as the desk side pistol for the wife who works from our home during the day. Standard Winchester .38 SJHP's. She doesn't like the +P's...or the .357
I'd opt for the .357, you can still put +P .38's in it, which are just fine at SD distances, you would also have a great hiking/camping, small pistol with the option of 158 gr. .357 JHP's if desired.
Let us know
PS Paraguy with a S&W? ;) Next thing you know you'll be talking about a G36. ;D
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I was looking into the same thing a while back and ended up finding a Taurus M85 Ti and love it. Granted it's only .38spc+p and it's not a S&W but I can unload it into a target in no time with hardly any muzzle rise (it's ported). It's also so small and light that it's a pleasure to carry and shoot. Personally, I can load up and down .38spc to do the job. Also if you can't quickly follow up your shots, what's the point?
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In the sub 2" barrel the 38+P will be with in 75-200fps. of the 357mag in my testing. This is not a lot of preformance gain for the negitives in cost, recoil, muzzle flash, noise report, recoil along with higher cost of gun ammo.
tex
P.S. the really light 357's can only shoot heavy 38's due to bullet walk from recoil. NO JOKE, more than one has returned to the shop because the cylinder jammed inoperable. Usually ending with a big loss in the investment of firearm toward trade of a compairable 38 airweight or airlight S&W. I hope this helps.
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Paraguy, you don't have to carry .357 in a .357 but the option to use .357 is to some a good thing. There are many quality .38 +p loads out there to choose from with a speed strip/loader of .357 JIC.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
PS: Being a Paraguy what is wrong with the Carry9? Pretty small in itself.
Would love the Para PDA, but at a $1k+ it is not an option. I will tell you though, looking down at the .45 barrel you will de-escalate things quickly! Like Glocks, but not enough to own one, I have other priorities ;-)
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Based of what you said I would go .357 if for no other reason, that it gives you options down the road. You never know when you may only be able to get .357 mag rounds. Don't limit your options if you can help it.
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For myself I won't carry a revolver for personal defense (unless is running around the hills out here and then I would want a .44) but this is mostly due to living in Detroit for so long. Jackals, whether 2 legged or 4, tend to run in packs and if I need to start throwing hot lead biscuits I want to have a lot to throw. Your mileage varies of course so that is cool.
As to the .38 vs .357 issue, Some .38 +P or +P+ ammo can give you good hitting power without the huge blast and thump of straight .357 loads. In fact much of the power you are looking for is going to be lost in a snub barrel because much of that huge blast is powder that didn't burn in the barrel and is thus not adding to the velocity of the bullet. If I did carry a .38 I would get ammo is designed for use in a snubby or just use a standard .38 load before I used a .357 load.
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I'd go with the 38 for 2 reasons (G4L has a good point about "ammo options" )
First one is cost, the 38 will probably be less expensive than the 357, (more $ for ammo )
Second, As has been mentioned, it's for close work, a robber has to be at least with in arms reach in order to take the stuff he expects you to hand him.
That defines your average EXPECTED range as 0 to 5 feet.
Use a quality defensive +P round and you should be fine.
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I bought a S & W model 442 with no lock three weeks ago & it hasn't left my pocket. People that say a .38 special doesn't have enough stopping power must be some tough S.O.B's that are used to having grenades tossed at them!! Standard pressure rounds are pretty stout with a snubby & +p rounds are a handful. I say get the .38, save a couple hundred bucks on the pistol & spend it on holsters & corbon dpx ammo. You'll be happy you did when you get that j frame to the range.
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I bought a S & W model 442 with no lock three weeks ago & it hasn't left my pocket. People that say a .38 special doesn't have enough stopping power must be some tough S.O.B's that are used to having grenades tossed at them!! Standard pressure rounds are pretty stout with a snubby & +p rounds are a handful. I say get the .38, save a couple hundred bucks on the pistol & spend it on holsters & corbon dpx ammo. You'll be happy you did when you get that j frame to the range.
+1
A little gun in the pocket is better than a big gun at home.
Also, most of the folks that say that the .38 spl "ain't enough gun" have never been shot with a .38 spl.... make 'em an offer and see where they stand then.
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Great gun tekoken, I have the 642 with the dreaded lock. I have a couple thousand rounds through it without incident.
On another note, as for the ammo, during testing I have found that regular heavy weight Corbon+P penetrates deeper, while still expanding well, over the DPX in most medias. With J-frames, the lack of this is the main concern for Personal Defense. Also for the overall comparison of rounds, the Rem. Golden Saber is my choice for my handguns...except 357sig. In the 357sig the Corbon won overall with a narrow second place to Golddot.
If you chose a quality round from any of the Main manufactures you will be good to go. Just make sure you can dot an eye. ;)
tex
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I have a .38 snubby and never feel it's not enough gun. As others have said, with the right +P loads it will do the job!!
Let us know what you end up getting.
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I have been using these in mine and the Missus. Model 642's after a recommendation from Tom Givens.
I have shot some wet phone books for what thats worth and they seem to work as described. Much less flash than from the Corbon loads. From their website
Buffalo Bore Ammunition
Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 158 gr. Soft Lead SWC-HC (850fps/M.E. 253 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box
Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.
1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.
Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo.
All three of these loads are flash suppressed, so firing them in the dark wont blind you. We use flash suppressed powder in our defensive ammo, in the loadings we can, because over 90% of all civilian shootings in America, occur in low light, when the criminal element is at work. We don't want you blinded by your own gunfire after the first shot.
Item 20C utilizes the same 158gr. very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet, we load in our +P 38 SPL ammo. It is designed to expand and then penetrate quite deep. (Approx. 14 inches in human tissue) This bullet is gas checked and will NOT lead your barrel. Note the below velocities that I recorded out of my personal revolvers- NOT TEST BARRELS!
1. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 854 fps (256 ft. lbs.)
2. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 871 fps (266 ft. lbs.)
3. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 930 fps (303 ft. lbs.)
4. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 979 fps (336 ft. lbs.)
I still like Corbons DPX .
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NG here - but I carry a S&W 360PD w/ CT grips and am quite comfortable with it. I have loaded it with the Buffalo Bore low recoil, low flash, short barrel, tactical 158 gr and find the load more manageable that the 135 gr Speer. I have carried all sorts of large frame polymer and 1911 style weapons previously - but I just like this little revolver a lot (especially as I get (a lot) older). Yep - it is a hand smacker - but other than firing some of my defensive ammunition through the 360PD just so I know what to expect, then some heavy grain target ammunition for added practice. I also use a steel short barrel revolver for extended range practice. The laser on the 360PD definately helps get back on target - but I practice also without the laser.
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Thank you everyone for all of the knowledge and experience you have shared! I think I am going to say a prayer for a big tax return to get the S&W .357/.38+P and try the suggested rounds to see what works best for me. I am guessing I will try the big bangers to make sure I am confortable with them and practice with the .38s at the range. I will carry the .357 hoping to never use it, but knowing it is there JIC.
I liked the Taurus suggestion, might be a good backup (assuming Uncle Sam coughs up enough for both.)
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FWIW...
I forget where, probably the "Snubby Files" but they mentioned the loss of velocity in a snub-nose using .357 mag, 125-130 grain loads is about 35 fps loss per inch of barrel length (average)...ie...about 70 fps loss going from a 4" barrel vs a 2" barrel. If I remember correctly, the loss of velocity using .38 loads was substantially more than .357..
I carry a "Sherman Tank" Ruger snubby in .357 mag using GS 125 gr JHP. I won't carry less but that's a personal decision and not meant to bash the .38's. I've been thinking of a LCR for myself and +P would be my choice for that.
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If you're going the snubby route, I recommend the S&W 649 or Ruger SP101. I like steel because it tames the recoil from a hot 38 load and from a .357 load too. They are heavier than other options but I think they are worth it if you're going to carry a snubby.
+1 on the Buffalo Bore ammo - that's the ammo I have (right now, in fact) in my S&W 649.
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Any thoughts on carrying a snubbie on an empty chamber, is that necessary or are they mechanically sound enough to carry over a round? Saw somewhere that there was debate on the subject and don't want to pull a Plaxico if you know what I mean. I know enough not to try and catch a loaded gun that is dropped, but if it falls hammer down is there a danger of an AD (ND?)
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Since Charter gave away the "transfer bar" technology years ago, most new guns have a transfer bar that requires a complete trigger press for the hammer to contact the firing pin. I'm confident my Ruger will not fire under any circumstances unless I want it to.
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My M85 Taurus, has an internal hammer, and the transfer bar. I carry with all 5 rds, no empty chambers. Similar to my pocket semi-auto, the trigger pull is long for a reason, as there is no external safety on either one.
Since Charter gave away the "transfer bar" technology years ago, most new guns have a transfer bar that requires a complete trigger press for the hammer to contact the firing pin. I'm confident my Ruger will not fire under any circumstances unless I want it to.
+1
I see no problem in a modern revolver, to have a round in all chambers.
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Taurus is a fine choice, and so is charter arms, smith and wesson. Pick one and go with it. As for the 375 - 38 debate. Go with the 357 and use 38s when you want to. You are getting two guns in one. Chicks did the man cannon anyways. No it is not making up for something else. ;D
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I'd pick a .357 over the 38 just for the ability to use either ammo type. If 38spl is not available, you can go with .357, or vice versa. In a snubby, if using .357 Magnum, even if you miss, the muzzle blast and noise will scare the crap out of any assailant long enough for you to get away.
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I'd pick a .357 over the 38 just for the ability to use either ammo type. If 38spl is not available, you can go with .357, or vice versa. In a snubby, if using .357 Magnum, even if you miss, the muzzle blast and noise will scare the crap out of any assailant long enough for you to get away.
100% agree. I had a Bond derringer in .357 (one of my top 5 wish I'd never traded guns) and in a 2 3/4" barrel it was manageble. That said, I don't think I was buying a thing more than I would have gotten from +p .38s. Me, if it were a new gun, I'd buy .357 and load .38. Its like spices in cooking "you can always add, but you can't take away". Same applies in reverse to guns. .357 lets you shoot .38, why not buy one that gives you the choice if there is another ammo shortage? Same weight, same price (new), so why not get more options, unles you want something uber light like an SLR?
FQ13 who would load .38 +p, but likes knowing he has two choices.
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Saw a nice used S&W .357 with a ported barrel. $250 seemed resonable, but would prefer new knowing how it was used and taken care of. A .357 loses a lot of power from the short barrel, would the fact that this is ported take away even more?
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Saw a nice used S&W .357 with a ported barrel. $250 seemed resonable, but would prefer new knowing how it was used and taken care of. A .357 loses a lot of power from the short barrel, would the fact that this is ported take away even more?
BUY IT! Yes, you're wasting powder with .357. Use .38 +p. However if the the revolver is in time, no rust etc., you cannot beat $250 with a stick. Ask the dealer for a bore light to check for pitting and see how tight it fits. Personally, its a concealed weapon. Who cares about looks? Just make sure its tight and clean. As far as porting, you'll get a big ball o'fire. So what? Its not a range toy. Frankly, if you don't like it, I'll trade you my S@W .38 4" even money on it, subject to both of our approvals.
FQ13 who says you don't see deals like that everyday, but if its clean and tight you should be writing a check, not talking to us.
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Read the Snubnose Files...
http://www.snubnose.info/
It will give you good information about the snubby in general. Most .357's can handle repeated shooting of full loads, that's what they were designed for. The lighter frame guns being produced today, not so much. I do know that shooting .38's out of a .357 will have a negative effect on ballistics because of the extended cylinder length and that includes +P loads.
I shoot a lot of .38's out of mine but if I'm going to carry it for protection, it's loaded for bear and magnum loads are the cartridge-de-jour......
Remember, you dress for the gun you carry, don't buy a gun to fit the way you dress...
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You are not gonna get the full power of a .357 out of a short barrel anyway so dont sweat it. IMO a 3" is the minimum for .357 and +P under that is ok.
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http://www.snubnose.info/docs/38-snub_vs_357-snub.htm
This is a direct comparison of chrono numbers out of the same 2-1/2" barrel.
1243 fps vs 850 fps is pretty dramatic but to each his own..... ;)
If I feel I'm outgunned with the .357, I pack the 1911......... 8)
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Get a .357. Steel frame snubbies AREN'T AS BAD AS EVERYONE THINKS. As already said, and what I like about the .357 Mag, you have the option to carry magnum rounds in it, or if you shoot better with the .38 +p's you can shoot all of those you want in a .357 Mag. And again, as said, you don't HAVE to carry .357 rounds in it. I haven't fired an Ultralight .357. I have fired an Ultralight .45 Colt, but it wasn't too bad to get back on target. If you're concerned with faster target recovery, a steel framed snubbie isn't that much heavier to carry. 8) Get the .357. It's worth it. Just out of curiosity, which model are you considering? My S&W 649 (See My Avatar) is my favorite gun to carry. The only thing mine is missing is Laser grips, but I'm saving for them. One thing I did do, is paint that black sight with Orange nail polish, so now I can see the sight against a black target.
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I like versatility, so that almost puts me in the .357 crowd. However, my guess is that even if you can "handle" a .357, the you can probably handle a .38+P or .38 even better with quicker follow up and better shot placement. Personally, I want that follow up and placement advantage, but that's somewhat subjective and others will have differing opinions.
Another thing to consider is muzzle flash and sound. Out of a snubby .357 produces quite a fireball, which might not be desirable at night. The louder report is also more apt to cause permanent hearing damage especially if you needed to fire in an enclosed space. (My experience is with a 3" barrel, I imagine a 2" compounds things.)
I couldn't decide, so I have two S&W J frames. The first one is a Model 60 (Stainless Steel) .357 with a 3" barrel. The second is a Model 442 (black aluminum) Airweight .38+P with a 1 7/8" barrel. The 60 was purchased primarily for my wife at home; the 442 for concealed carry.
The extra weight and slightly longer barrel of the 60 make this one fun to shoot and eliminates some of the disadvantages of the snubby. While I'll shoot some .357s and .38+P, regular .38s are its main diet at the range for simple economic reasons. When shooting .38s, the longer .357 cylinder chambers will get some carbon build up and require a little more elbow grease when cleaning. (Hint: get actual chamber brushes which are slightly larger than bore brushes.) If you don't get the crud out, .357 might be a little snug going in and sticky to eject if you have been using .38s.
The only "carry" the 60 gets with .357 is outdoors with the intent of protection against 4-legged attackers, or possibly a "coup de grâce" when hunting, although I've never needed it for either.
The 442 is a great carry gun. Its amazing the difference an inch off the barrel makes for comfort and concealability. I have been carrying Federal Nyclads in .38 standard pressure, but I am always trying out different types. The Nyclads hit point of aim for me and allow for quick follow up shots.
I don't think you can go wrong with either. If you're looking used ($250 sounds inviting) here is a great post on what to look for: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57816
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Get a .357. Steel frame snubbies AREN'T AS BAD AS EVERYONE THINKS. As already said, and what I like about the .357 Mag, you have the option to carry magnum rounds in it, or if you shoot better with the .38 +p's you can shoot all of those you want in a .357 Mag. And again, as said, you don't HAVE to carry .357 rounds in it. I haven't fired an Ultralight .357. I have fired an Ultralight .45 Colt, but it wasn't too bad to get back on target. If you're concerned with faster target recovery, a steel framed snubbie isn't that much heavier to carry. 8) Get the .357. It's worth it. Just out of curiosity, which model are you considering? My S&W 649 (See My Avatar) is my favorite gun to carry. The only thing mine is missing is Laser grips, but I'm saving for them. One thing I did do, is paint that black sight with Orange nail polish, so now I can see the sight against a black target.
I am looking at the Model 360 PD revolver. It is light, has a good front sight and is about $200 off list at my local shop. Think it would be a good car gun and the .357 could easily go through glass if needed.
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I have my S&Ws M 10s and 64s but,the best one I love are my Ruger SP101s. I have 5 of them. All of them in .357/.38. For everything I need for sd situations,125 Hornadys CDs do the job when told to. rich642z SP101s are built like a tank and a timex,it keps on going and ticking each time I pull the trigger. And in 3 words about that,,,,,,,WHAT A RUSH. ;D
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I have a Taurus titanium snubbie in .38+P and so does my wife. I also had the stainless stell Taurus snub in .357. Also picked up a Ruger LCR.
The one you will carry all the time is the one you should buy.
I really, really like the look of the Taurus and I like hammers....but I really, really carry the Ruger LCR because it is easier. So...I think first off go hammerless.
Next, go light. I like the LCR and I love the trigger on it. The polymer frame seems to absorb some of the recoil.
I've handled friend's S&W's and prefer the LCR.....but that's just me.
Bottom line...it's gotta be something that you want and that you will carry.
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So what about a .44 Special, like a Charter Arms Bulldog? How does it compare to a .357 in a snubnose revolver?
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So what about a .44 Special, like a Charter Arms Bulldog? How does it compare to a .357 in a snubnose revolver?
Michael Bane loves .44 special
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The .44 Spl makes big holes. That alone is worth considering. :)
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.44 Also makes a little fatter cylinder, which isn't as easily carried in the pocket.
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lAll things being equal, its hard to argue with .44. Thing is, all things ain't equal. Price and availability of ammo, plus the fatter profile says go with a .357 and load with hot .38s for an SD gun.
FQ13
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;D I have a Ruger SP101 2.25 inch barrel in the .357 caliber and,,,,,,,, its my edc. .357 mag, make me have a rush. rich642z :-*
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Finally made a decision and unfortunately it was a rational one. I went to the Smith and Wesson Days Sales at the local range/store and bout a S&W 637 Airweight in Unfinished Aluminum with black rubber grips in 38+P. It was rational because it was a "Display Model" and was unfired and only $375. They list at $619 and retail for $479+ so I think it was a good deal. It is the Chiefs Special so it has the exposed hammer. Hope to take her to the range today and see how she operates.
Thanks for all the advice and insight, it was appreciated.
BTW, it was the same model Rob had with him in the tent of TBD!
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bob the hammer
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bob the hammer
+1
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disable the lock
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bob the hammer
disable the lock
Just shoot the darn thing and enjoy!!!! ;D
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Just shoot the darn thing and enjoy!!!! ;D
Just did today for the first time, and she is a handful with the Cor Bon +P rounds. 20 was enough for me to get a feel for how it kicks and behaves. I will need to continue working with it to get used to the front sight and follow up shots, but should be a fun adventure!
Just curious, how does one "bob" a hammer?
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Just did today for the first time, and she is a handful with the Cor Bon +P rounds. 20 was enough for me to get a feel for how it kicks and behaves. I will need to continue working with it to get used to the front sight and follow up shots, but should be a fun adventure!
Just curious, how does one "bob" a hammer?
For best results, at a gunsmith's. ;D
I've done it once, with good results....but it would be easy to mangle up the works if not careful. I used a cut-off wheel in a small dremel tool and then slowly filed down with a diamond file gradually getting down to 600 grit emery paper to a final finish.
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Again showing my lack of experience with revolvers here. I've noticed with revolvers that have the fixed sights with a notch cut for a rear that the font sight is considerably high. With semis I know you are basically lining up the rear and front evenly. But when I try to do the same on the revolvers at the shop by me it feels like I have the barrel angled downward. Does that make since? What is considered to be the norm for revolvers when lining up the sights. Using the example of a jframe with just plain sights. Should the sights be even across the top of the sight picture?
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My J-Frame points the same way. But Line up the sights in a manner that will let you hit where you're aiming, and the problem is solved. BTW, You got a good deal.
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Line up the top of the front sight with the top of the rear notch and set the POA just on top of that sight picture. It does seem uncomfortable at first but you'll get used to it.
Keep in mind that different loads will have a different POA at distances.
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I know what you mean. It "feels" like it is angled down. My understanding is that on a revolver, the recoil causes the barrel to lift before the bullet leaves the barrel. I have an old 6" Colt and the front sight is very high—presumably because of the longer barrel.
As for differing loads, my S&W 442 seems to shoot Point of Aim (POA) for 130gr (non +P). 158gr seem a bit higher (the theory is the barrel has traveled farther up before the bullets exits—heavier bullet = slower). +P in 125gr shoot a little low.
I suppose your grip plays a part in how high or low POA would be. This is how it has worked for me at least.
Try as many different loads as you can and you'll find that "sweet spot". I like the Federal Nyclads 130gr since, for me, they have the same POI as 130gr FMJ that I can pick relatively cheaply.
Have fun!
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(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8854/sw6860ml.th.jpg) (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sw6860ml.jpg)
Click On Thumbnail To Enlarge
I picked up this 686 in the late 80's. It's one of my favorite carry guns. 6, 125 gr. Soft Points will ruin someone's day. Bill T.
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You did get a good deal! BTW, I come down solidly on the .38 Special side of the snub equation...I've got 5 small-framed revolvers...the only .357 in the herd is the heavier, beefier Ruger bobbed-hammer SP101.
Michael B
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Another trip to the range with the new toy, and this time followed Timothy's advice on how to properly aim and line up to the target. In single action I was hitting within three inches of the target at 7 yards. Double action, I was, well let's just say I need more practice. I did see a noticeable difference between the range ammo in .38 Special versus the Golden Sabres in +P. Only shot 5 of the G. Sabres, they ain't cheap!
BillT, thanks for the photo, I was going to use my $25 discount off a $50 purchase at S&W for properly registering with them on grips like you have. Wasn't sure how they would look with the aluminum pistol, but you answered that with a resounding Yes they look great!
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Get used to shooting it double action. In a high stress incident, you're not going to think or have time to cock the hammer. I actually shoot mine more accurately since I stopped shooting it SA. Inside 20 feet, pie plate accuracy is effective shooting.
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Dry fire practice can help. Range practice is even more helpful. Glad to hear you're enjoying the new gun. 8)
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I think I need to get four more so I can be like MB. I am sure the wifey will agree and not go shopping for the next two years to accomodate my request.
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(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8854/sw6860ml.th.jpg) (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sw6860ml.jpg)
Click On Thumbnail To Enlarge
I picked up this 686 in the late 80's. It's one of my favorite carry guns. 6, 125 gr. Soft Points will ruin someone's day. Bill T.
THAT is a cream piece... my wife has one with 4: barrel and it's the nicest revolver we've ever handled. If you ever want to let go of it please let me know. If I can find any of that money stuff I'm in.