The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on February 19, 2010, 08:11:52 PM
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Lots of folks seem to have strong opinions about "FrontSite" Owner Ignatious Piazza. Express them here.
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He's a snake oil salesman IMNSHO.
OTOH, I have heard nothing but positive reviews on the actual training - at least up to last year. I have not checked anything lately.
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I started this thread as a parking place for the off topic subject of these 2 threads
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11274.msg147623#msg147623
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11337.msg148537#msg148537
I will reiterate something I put in one of the other threads
"Dr. Ignatious Piazza is one of the scheduled speakers at the Second Amendment March in Washington.
But he's a sleaze ball who made his money selling " Get rich quick" scams to suckers, or used cars, or some such.
I ran across a couple news stories about him losing lawsuits accusing him of fraud, and contract violations.
Originally Tom Gresham was involved , but he pulled out because he "didn't like some of the people getting involved"
We know he doesn't mean MB, MB being on Tom's show is how I found this site.
Are there other sleazy characters involved, How many potential supporters will they turn off or drive out ?
Will the Media focus on them in an effort to discredit the rest of the marchers ?
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I started this thread as a parking place for the off topic subject of these 2 threads
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11274.msg147623#msg147623
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11337.msg148537#msg148537
I will reiterate something I put in one of the other threads
"Dr. Ignatious Piazza is one of the scheduled speakers at the Second Amendment March in Washington.
But he's a sleaze ball who made his money selling " Get rich quick" scams to suckers, or used cars, or some such.
I ran across a couple news stories about him losing lawsuits accusing him of fraud, and contract violations.
Originally Tom Gresham was involved , but he pulled out because he "didn't like some of the people getting involved"
We know he doesn't mean MB, MB being on Tom's show is how I found this site.
Are there other sleazy characters involved, How many potential supporters will they turn off or drive out ?
Will the Media focus on them in an effort to discredit the rest of the marchers ?
I remember that Tom G had the organizer of the 2A march on his show and he come out in support of the march. Soon after that though he disassociated himself with it, but he would say who he didn't like. He was also won't say why he doesn't like Front Sight. As he usually puts it "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". That way of thinking has it's place but I think it's wrong in this case. If Piazza is trouble we should air it that is the greatest power of a free society. And the only way to get a bad school out business. Cope Reynolds of the Shooting Bench Radio show/podcast doesn't like him either. He has stated a couple of times on his show that he doesn't like Piazza, though he hasn't been explicit in his reasoning either. ??? I wish some one with some true info would just spill it.
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From what I have heard as well, the school is fine, it's Piazza not living up to contracts, and those "Life membership"deals he was offering.
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IIRC, Gresham did say that if you wanted to know why, just search the net for Piazza and you would see. Mostly I found the snake oil bit plus the real estate scams he's been sued over - successfully. Plus, now, the tendency to wallow in the blood of others to sell his school.
I thought one of the resolutions of lawsuits was to force him to divest himself of the schools? I will have to look into that.
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I have not attended any Front Sight classes, but if I had the means I would. From everything I have seen and heard about the training, it is top notch.
I am on the Front Sight mailing list and I get all of Piazza's promotions. My take is that he has more than his share of P. T. Barnum in him. He very aggressively markets his product. He also gives many training classes away in his promotions. Like buy one, get 5 free for Church members who are becoming the security force for their church. Of course, recent church shootings are used in the promotion.
I have also heard about the lawsuits. I have researched them to some extent and have heard all of his side of it through his mailings. I am leaning a bit in Piazza's favor on this, but am not positive his was not at fault.
If he is sincere in what he is trying to accomplish but has not been able to due to legal/financial obstacles, he is not a snake, just not as good at this as he advertised he was.
It has been reported that he is a Christian Scientist and I have not found any proof either way, except he does portray the aggressive approach often associated with that belief.
Front Sight has a series of videos called the Front Sight Challenge in which four competitors participate with a particular firearm type: pistol, rifle, sub-gun etc. Two of the participants are Front Site students and two are from the military or police ranks.
If you want to observe the result of the training, visit the site and sign up for the series. Unless you want to be on his mailing list, make a new Hot Mail or GMail account for this purpose.
I have not stopped the mailings because in addition to the never ending sales pitch I think he does present some good information.
I am not a Piazza fan, but am interested in the product.
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Even if he is in fact a Saint, he comes ACROSS as a sleazy Snake oil salesman, that is the important thing in relation to the Second Amendment March. Which in no way relates to the quality of the School's Classes.
How is he going to appear to "Jane and Joe Average " in a media that is already hostile to our cause ?
He is an easy target for the media to focus on , giving the impression that all these schools are run by " slick Con artists . Probably working for the radical Right Wing Extremists of the Tea Party Movement"
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Sounds like a classic example of a salesman with viable/quality product who uses a marketing strategy that fails. Then he tries to use questionable tactics to get out of a jam, but ends up digging the hole deeper. In the end, a potentially good thing ends up looking like a sham, and the salesman loses credibility and the whole situation looks bad to the media and those on the outside looking in.
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Sounds like a classic example of a salesman with viable/quality product who uses a marketing strategy that fails. Then he tries to use questionable tactics to get out of a jam, but ends up digging the hole deeper. In the end, a potentially good thing ends up looking like a sham, and the salesman loses credibility and the whole situation looks bad to the media and those on the outside looking in.
Is his participation in the Second Amendment March going to help or hurt ?
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Is his participation in the Second Amendment March going to help or hurt ?
At face value, it will help. He has a large organization, and has name recognition. On the other hand, those that are not FUDDS, weekend warriors, and tend to stay "in the know", it may hurt credibility. But not at the March, that is a bigger issue that transcends Piazza...
The Second Amend March is a GOOD thing. I can't do the NRA convention, AND the March, but promoting a March in DC that reminds the "Beltway Folks" that the 2nd Amend WILL remain as written, is a good thing.
If Piazza brings assets that promote the 2nd Amend; Fine. If he utilizes different marketing and salesman like tactics to sell his own product, than over time most folks will catch on, and he will just be "Oh, that guy"....
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Is his participation in the Second Amendment March going to help or hurt ?
At face value, it will help. He has a large organization, and has name recognition. On the other hand, those that are not FUDDS, weekend warriors, and tend to stay "in the know", it may hurt credibility. But not at the March, that is a bigger issue that transcends Piazza...
The Second Amend March is a GOOD thing. I can't do the NRA convention, AND the March, but promoting a March in DC that reminds the "Beltway Folks" that the 2nd Amend WILL remain as written, is a good thing.
If Piazza brings assets that promote the 2nd Amend; Fine. If he utilizes different marketing and salesman like tactics to sell his own product, than over time most folks will catch on, and he will just be "Oh, that guy"....
I'm not sure about that. If his name recognition sucks (like he's the 2A version of Bernie Madoff) it will hurt more than help!
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I gotta say I'm on the fence on this one........... it's like a guy trying to sell a Rolex at a "Five & Dime" store..... :-\
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I gotta say I'm on the fence on this one........... it's like a guy trying to sell a Rolex at a "Five & Dime" store..... :-\
+1
he does like to email though I reckon I get 1 a day and some days I have seen 2 to 3
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+1
he does like to email though I reckon I get 1 a day and some days I have seen 2 to 3
I signed up for his emails awhile back. Moved them to spam, and canceled after about a week. I'm sorry but when someone tells me that practice with my firearm is a bad thing. I get suspicious. In one of his emails he stated that shooting more than 10-12 rounds was practicing too much and simply reinforcing bad habits. ::)
Is that why the best shooters in the world are firing tens of thousands of rounds a year? The guy is a joke. Kinda like sensitivity training. Pay me thousands of dollars and come out of my class dumber than you went in. Sounds like college huh.
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Piazza has responded to Starbucks standing firm on the right to carry in their stores.
He has offered EVERY Starbucks employee a free $2000 4 day defensive hand gun course if taken in 2010.
They need to fill out the application and send in a copy of a current Starbucks pay stub instead of the money.
I know it is more marketing, but he seems to put his money where his mouth is.
You can read about it here
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2010/03/05/ignatius-piazza-starbucks-employees-just-got-a-bonus/#video
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Since somebody brought up marketing strategy....how's this?
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2010/01/18/ignatius-piazza-stop-screaming-start-shooting/
scroll down to the bottom and click on that video.
Using a cop's "snuff film" as a marketing tool is the epitome of sleazey...in my opinion
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Since somebody brought up marketing strategy....how's this?
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2010/01/18/ignatius-piazza-stop-screaming-start-shooting/
scroll down to the bottom and click on that video.
Using a cop's "snuff film" as a marketing tool is the epitome of sleazey...in my opinion
That was what started this thread in the first place ;D
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I don't know what all the fuss is about. Mike Piazza was a great catcher and a .300 lifetime hitter. Too bad he finished up with the Mets......
Oh, this thread ain't about baseball?
Sorry.......thought I was on an ESPN thread.....
;D
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I'v seen the overload of emails, but never had an opinion. I have 2 friends that have taken classes at Frontsight and swear by them. As does my eye doctor.
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I don't know much about him to comment on his reputation. However, he has stepped up to offer a significant discount on his training program while making a donation to the 2nd Amendment March organization. He is one of three sponsors including United States Concealed Carry and Gun Owners of American. One might better ask "Who has not stepped up to provide much needed financial support? Where are the firearm manufacturers,the firearm supply companies or the other training organizations that make millions of dollars from people like us? I have personally contacted some of the "majors" of the above and mostly never received the courtesy of a reply. Many "big players" were contacted face to face at the recent SHOT show. The March organizers were told by some "that time was not right for such an undertaking" or the MSM would not cover it even if a huge crowd attended. This March is being funded for the most part by people like us who go to the March website (http://secondamendmentmarch.com) and donate. The staff of the March works tirelessly with no enumeration or compensation for their time or travel expenses. It is this greater apathy on the part of the industry that depends on 2nd Amendment and its freedom that makes me wonder.
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I don't know much about him to comment on his reputation. However, he has stepped up to offer a significant discount on his training program while making a donation to the 2nd Amendment March organization. He is one of three sponsors including United States Concealed Carry and Gun Owners of American. One might better ask "Who has not stepped up to provide much needed financial support? Where are the firearm manufacturers,the firearm supply companies or the other training organizations that make millions of dollars from people like us? I have personally contacted some of the "majors" of the above and mostly never received the courtesy of a reply. Many "big players" were contacted face to face at the recent SHOT show. The March organizers were told by some "that time was not right for such an undertaking" or the MSM would not cover it even if a huge crowd attended. This March is being funded for the most part by people like us who go to the March website (http://secondamendmentmarch.com) and donate. The staff of the March works tirelessly with no enumeration or compensation for their time or travel expenses. It is this greater apathy on the part of the industry that depends on 2nd Amendment and its freedom that makes me wonder.
The Sept. 12 protest proves them right on that score. The largest protest gathering to EVER occur in Washington and it was largely ignored by the ministry of propaganda MSM
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You have to remember that all of this "Firearms Training" business is a very fast and easy cash earner. For one thing you have to pay in full for any and all of these classes up front. Many are very expensive, costing well into 4 digits after you factor in ammunition costs and travel expenses for a weekend of run and gun type "training". Most have to be booked well in advance. Yes, there are some very reputable trainers out there, but because of the very nature of this venue, it's going to attract fast buck artists simply because most of the people who take these type of courses are first timers who wouldn't know bad training from good.
Since AR-15 "Assault Type" rifles have become so popular, one that attracts a lot of people and MONEY are these so called "Carbine Courses". They don't really teach marksmanship, or basic rifle fundamentals. Most are run and gun, pour through the ammo type classes. They have to keep the "fun factor" highly engaged through all of this, or people will get bored. No one wants to pay $1,000.00+ dollars to sit with an AR-15 across their lap listening to some self appointed guru "teach" you about combat, when he's most likely never been in it. It is the, "Get 'em in, let 'em blast, count the cash" type philosophy. That type of environment will, and in fact does attract sleazeballs. You have to figure the era of the door to door vacuum cleaner and encyclopedia salesman is gone. These guys have to earn a living somehow. Regardless if it's selling books door to door, or firearms training, either way they'll see you once, only to never see you again, and they know it. Bill T.
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You have to remember that all of this "Firearms Training" business is a very fast and easy cash earner. For one thing you have to pay in full for any and all of these classes up front. Many are very expensive, costing well into 4 digits after you factor in ammunition costs and travel expenses for a weekend of run and gun type "training". Most have to be booked well in advance. Yes, there are some very reputable trainers out there, but because of the very nature of this venue, it's going to attract fast buck artists simply because most of the people who take these type of courses are first timers who wouldn't know bad training from good.
Since AR-15 "Assault Type" rifles have become so popular, one that attracts a lot of people and MONEY are these so called "Carbine Courses". They don't really teach marksmanship, or basic rifle fundamentals. Most are run and gun, pour through the ammo type classes. They have to keep the "fun factor" highly engaged through all of this, or people will get bored. No one wants to pay $1,000.00+ dollars to sit with an AR-15 across their lap listening to some self appointed guru "teach" you about combat, when he's most likely never been in it. It is the, "Get 'em in, let 'em blast, count the cash" type philosophy. That type of environment will, and in fact does attract sleazeballs. You have to figure the era of the door to door vacuum cleaner and encyclopedia salesman is gone. These guys have to earn a living somehow. Regardless if it's selling books door to door, or firearms training, either way they'll see you once, only to never see you again, and they know it. Bill T.
You are correct, however, I do not think this applies to Piazza. There is no doubt that he uses very aggressive marketing techniques and they can easily be called into question. From all I have read, and that is mostly from him and the customer recommendations he forwards, he has a good training facility and offers valuable instruction.
I have never personally spoken to anyone who has taking the Front Sight training, so I consider my opinion "best guess" until it is verified.
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I have read good things about the training in other forums. His real estate projects, and Scientology connections, on the other hand, are things to steer away from. But I have not heard anything negative from anyone who has attended a class. They also said that this wasn't a Scientology recruitment tool - the gun courses were very professional.