The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: IdeaMan on February 22, 2010, 06:34:16 PM
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Does a small arms round exist that can reliably pierce through glass without shattering the glass, leave the bullet undeformed, won't redirect, or lose lethal momentum?
I don't plan on shooting anyone through glass all stealth like but rather I have ideas for such a bullet.
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I would figure that a FMJ would meet most of that criteria. Most windshield auto glass is designed not to shatter but the other secondary windows not so much. A bonded bullet like a Speer Gold Dot would also maintain most of its momentum and mass being bonded. That's about all I know.
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What kind of glass?
And none that I am aware of - type of glass, angle, distance fired, etc. all factor into whether the glass breaks, shatters, or is punctured.
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Angle of incident matters, too. You can ricochet off almost anything once you put enough angle on it. Even if it punctures, I don't think you can reliably predict the departure angle.
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In years past, FBI extensively tested rounds with penetration and consistency of shape for glass and car doors. The physics of tempered glass come down to speed. The faster the fps, the less the shockwave will shatter the surrounding glass.
Believe it or not the 9mm was the original cartridge for this. RUAG Int. still has a cryptic website but specializes in this stuff.
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/ruag/
Plus other FBI testing:
Test Event 6: Automobile Glass One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45° to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15° to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.
http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm
Also covers light/heavy clothing. Steel, Body Armor, etc,...
OK, here's my question. Why does your question leave me wanting to ask more questions??? Welcome to DRTV, IdeaMan. Keep an eye out for black helicopters too...
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There is a new one from Black Hills ammo called the SOST. There isn't much out there on it yet but the USMC announced last week that that's what they are switching to.
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In years past, FBI extensively tested rounds with penetration and consistency of shape for glass and car doors. The physics of tempered glass come down to speed. The faster the fps, the less the shockwave will shatter the surrounding glass.
Believe it or not the 9mm was the original cartridge for this. RUAG Int. still has a cryptic website but specializes in this stuff.
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/ruag/
Plus other FBI testing:
Test Event 6: Automobile Glass One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45° to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15° to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.
http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm
Also covers light/heavy clothing. Steel, Body Armor, etc,...
OK, here's my question. Why does your question leave me wanting to ask more questions??? Welcome to DRTV, IdeaMan. Keep an eye out for black helicopters too...
that army tech website looks pretty cool, some of those specialized rounds with gears and such in them for delivering poison or something? who knows. As for the fbi thing unfortunetly its just protocol without any tests or results. As to your question I got my idea from a commercial I just saw of a new movie where a guy snipes a guy from another building through glass without shattering the glass, and from what I know its only possible "in the movies", or under ideal circumstances(angle, thickness, type) and I got ideas on a bullet that wouldn't just "punch" through the glass, depending on ultra high fps. Ive even got ideas on curving or moon shot-like bullets, of course its all in my head and its based off an incredibly simple design but who knows if it would work.
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I don't think you'll avoid shattering with anything shy of tempered (eg wind sheild or skyskraper) glass. For years here in Fl. the advice on geting out of your sinking car, after your drunken self puts it into a canal and the windows fail, is to use a phillips head or ice pick on the side window. Or, wait for it to sink and the pressure to satabalize and open the door, but by then the gators are circling. ;D
FQ13
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@fightingquaker13, lol
Quick hypothetical here. If a half plastic/half lead lengthwise were fired from a gun would a "ballistic grade plastic" become glued to the lead half of the bullet due to the heat and presssure?
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I would figure that a FMJ would meet most of that criteria. Most windshield auto glass is designed not to shatter but the other secondary windows not so much. A bonded bullet like a Speer Gold Dot would also maintain most of its momentum and mass being bonded. That's about all I know.
On TBD, Rob shot through car windows. His shots went through without much of a change in direction from where aimed. As for the condition of the projectile after going through glass, it was not discussed.
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They had video of that home invasion in AZ, where the homeowner fired through the front windshield of the BG's Chrysler 300 numerous times, with his AR. The bullets went right through without shattering the entire windshield.
Go to a junkyard, by a windshield, door window, whatever's cheaper, and let us know.
I think distance and angle would play a role.
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I think anything but laminated safety glass, like a car windshield, would shatter.
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They had video of that home invasion in AZ, where the homeowner fired through the front windshield of the BG's Chrysler 300 numerous times, with his AR. The bullets went right through without shattering the entire windshield.
Go to a junkyard, by a windshield, door window, whatever's cheaper, and let us know.
I think distance and angle would play a role.
Don't waste your money at a junkyard. I'm sure FQ would donate the use of his F150 for such a scientific endeavor. ;D
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Don't waste your money at a junkyard. I'm sure FQ would donate the use of his F150 for such a scientific endeavor. ;D
Me? You're the one running for office sparky. Call it a fundraiser. $20 a head. I'll buy two tickets. ;D
FQ13
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I think anything but laminated safety glass, like a car windshield, would shatter.
As a kid of 12, I was not always the respectful, honorable, clear-thinking individual you have all come to know and love (I'm not wrong about that "love" part, am I?) :-*
Anyway, I had a pocket rocket and a tube of BBs. My neighbor had a garage side door with a pane of single strength glass. I came to know about the "single strength" aspect of glazing when I later had to pay for the replacement of said window. :'(
Twelve shots with my wrist-rocket punched 12 neat little holes in that window. It was waaay cool. At least it was until the neighbor returned home, exited his garage through the side door, and slammed the door closed--at which point the pane of glass disengaged itself from the door and crashed loudly on the cement floor of his garage. He knew exactly where to come for monetary relief (I don't know how he knew), and my allowance was compromised for the next two months. As I recall, my butt was rather compromised by my dad's belt, too. :'( :'(
So, small rounds and slow speed can punch holes in regular window glass without shattering the glass (until it is disturbed at a later time.) I'm thinking sub-sonic .22 might just work.