The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on March 01, 2010, 02:03:38 PM
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I started to post this in the Cafe' section, but instead think it may be a pertinent topic here (if not, I will not be offended if it is moved).
My son's good friend's step-dad is a state LEO here in south Ga. This information was relayed by the officer's wife. I don't have some of the intricate details due to the ongoing investigation, but hope to know more later. In any event, what is pertinent to this thread I can divulge.
Last evening, the LEO was involved in a high speed chase that ended up with the suspect's auto stopped and the lone LEO trying to apprehend the suspect without back-up (which is the case many times with certain state agencies). The suspect was around 6'4" tall and weighing around 300 pounds and the LEO is of average height and build. He also appeared to be hopped-up on some unknown substance. The suspect attacked the LEO and tried to disarm him. The fight became extremely close and highly involved as the suspect continued to try to relieve the officer of his duty weapon. The LEO repeatedly struck the aggressor on the head with his fist and palm to the point that the bones of his striking hand actually shattered and came through his skin. The suspect finally gave up the fight and fled into the nearby woods leaving the LEO to make his way to his patrol car. **Edited from earlier: The suspect has not been apprehended.
I don't know what type of holsters this agency uses, but I do know they are issued retention type holsters and it appears to have worked. Even without greater details, I think this shows the importance of both retention holsters (for LEO's and civilians alike) and a sincere need for retention training. Being in control of your weapon is a critical and should not be overlooked.
I also think it shows how quickly an attacker can get up close and personal and the need for hand-to-hand tactics training.
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Mainly only in open carry situations.
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It also shows why police officers should not try and cuff hopped up 300 lbs felons by themselves.
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Sometimes you are all there is. When back up is 45 minutes away you fight or die. You can not let a deadly felon escape to hurt someone else, because if you do you are liable to be sued.
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Shoot him.
Wrestling around with somebody who may out weigh you by 100-150 pounds is a poor choice for officer survival.
I understand your point and I'm not second quessing the officer on the decision he made at the time.
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Mainly only in open carry situations.
For the most part, yes, but there could be exceptions.
You don't always know what is in someones mind or their intentions. Just because you are carrying concealed doesn't negate caution regarding retention. I know of a guy that was attacked from behind while approaching an ATM. The attacker grabbed him around the neck from behind and reached for his wallet. If he had been carrying strong-side concealed it may just have easily meant the loss of a weapon with who knows what consequences. Situational awareness of his surroundings could have possibly prevented the attack, but an attack can come from any angle at any time. It is easier than you think to get caught off guard, even when paying attention.
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Shoot him.
Wrestling around with somebody who may out weigh you by 100-150 pounds is a poor choice for officer survival.
I understand your point and I'm not second quessing the officer on the decision he made at the time.
I agree 100% on your point.....If the opportunity was available before the actual physical struggle was under way.
I hope to get more details on the method of attack if I can.
**Edit: Just talked via email to his wife. She said the suspect exited the vehicle and ran. The officer was chasing him and the suspect turned on him and the fight ensued.
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Shoot him.
Wrestling around with somebody who may out weigh you by 100-150 pounds is a poor choice for officer survival.
I understand your point and I'm not second quessing the officer on the decision he made at the time.
Well... I'm not sure that is the best option. If you are wrestling around with a guy that out weighs you AND he is going for your secured sidearm, I'm not sure your best option is taking the handgun out of its secured position. Of course not getting into that situation is the best option but once you are there do the best you can. That includes not making the situation worse. I think, from what little info is available the officer did the correct thing.
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Well... I'm not sure that is the best option. If you are wrestling around with a guy that out weighs you AND he is going for your secured sidearm, I'm not sure your best option is taking the handgun out of its secured position. Of course not getting into that situation is the best option but once you are there do the best you can. That includes not making the situation worse. I think, from what little info is available the officer did the correct thing.
My point is deadly force should be considered when some dangerous felon is attempting to disarm you.
This officer stayed in the fight and more power to him.
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Thanks for the reminder, Peg... definitely an important topic. AS noted above, it is 95% an open carry issue. Of course, if you let people know you have a gun, you have put yourself in an "open carry" situation for practical purposes. Recently, I discussed this on Armed American Radio as a potentially huge issue in defensive training with the currently popularity of Open Carry and the possibility after the Supreme Court rules on MacDonald and we see certain jurisdictions encouraging more open carry.
I also mentioned it on a recent episode of SWAT TV, where I pointed out that a retention holster like the SERPA, which allows a level of extra "retention" automatically after re-holstering can be an advantage for the CCW holder that needs to show his gun and then re-holster. At this point, retention can be much more of an issue than just before the gun was ever drawn/displayed/shot.
I'll also offer that, especially for LE, I have always said that weapon retention is a TRAINING issue, not a gear issue. No holster is going to protect your gun if you have zero awareness and no physical ability to defend yourself in close quarters.
-Rob
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Poor training.
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Poor training.
The poor guy fought for his life and gun, until he broke his hand enough that bones are sticking out, and the BG left, he remembered the most important lesson, FIGHT, until you can't fight anymore. He did against a much bigger man, who may or may not have been high on whatever, and he survived. Really think a weak side knife ( non folder ) or impact weapon could have helped, even the flashlight, better than his hand, but I give him kudos for sticking with it, I was not there and can only imagine the brutality. I think his mindset was on the gun, and it staying where it was, and using 2 hands to do it, taking a pounding in the process.
Yes he could have stayed in the car, and just called in what he saw, and not have attempted to apprehend, that was his call. He tried to do his duty as he saw fit. I won't question him on it, wonder what his thoughts are now, if it did happen again?
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Many a LEO have been saved by a mag disconnect... If you are going to openly carry a gun, I highly recomend this feature.
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First. Glad to hear your friend has wounds that will heal and I hope they don't show this much mercy when they find the D-Bag.
Unfortunately since I left the LE Business I don't get this cool training anymore. I was the only one that could keep the weapon on me and I'm a dispatcher but I'm also 6'2 and 350 lbs. It also helps to have good holsters. At the time The Louisa County Sheriff's office carried Bianchi 3.2.1's and beretta 92's Bianchi also makes a concealled carry retention holster that is a very good product. Both have a auto-lock like SERPA's. SERPA's are nice but the release button while being in a proper grip location it is on the outside of the holster for people to see and possibly manipulate. Bianchi's are thumb operated when you grip and it is almost hidden by the gun and while not impossible pretty close to being impossible to operate if you aren't the owner of the gun.
3. Mag disconnects are a double edged sword. While it is good in the situation you are talking about I have heard it the other way and if something stupid were to happen and the mag falls out at least you still have one round to put downrange. In the same sentance there is only one round to fire back at you and hopefully you can survive that.
I personally hate mag disconnects. I can see the advantages and also the disadvantages.
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The poor guy fought for his life and gun, until he broke his hand enough that bones are sticking out, and the BG left, he remembered the most important lesson, FIGHT, until you can't fight anymore. He did against a much bigger man, who may or may not have been high on whatever, and he survived. Really think a weak side knife ( non folder ) or impact weapon could have helped, even the flashlight, better than his hand, but I give him kudos for sticking with it, I was not there and can only imagine the brutality. I think his mindset was on the gun, and it staying where it was, and using 2 hands to do it, taking a pounding in the process.
Yes he could have stayed in the car, and just called in what he saw, and not have attempted to apprehend, that was his call. He tried to do his duty as he saw fit. I won't question him on it, wonder what his thoughts are now, if it did happen again?
Absolutely a noble effort to perform his duties. It is good to know that he will recover.
Unfortunately it ends there and I have to agree with 2HOW.
The rest of this is pure discussion for discussion sake It, BY NO MEANS, is intended as anything more than conjecture or extrapolation and is NOT a comment on this particular officer's actions:
Windmilling with your fist when you have other options is the sign of a reversion to a base survival instinct. It is an indicator of a deeply engrained intellectual response. Let's presume that an officer has a full kit and has completed his annual training dance steps. Is he properly prepared for an encounter such as the one described in this thread? Most likely not.
Why not? Insufficient training.
You own a EDW such as a taser. You keep it properly maintained because you want it to work. You have a spare cartridge or two just in case. You even practice with it twice a year to make sure you remember how to use it. Does that make you GTG? Under stress are you ready to draw it, manipulate the safety, sight it and discharge device? In that moment of need do you want it to be an unconsciously competent act, or do you want to think your way through the operation?
K9 and Military Working Dog handlers train with their partners quite regularly. They use real humans in a realistic situation so the animal will know how to react and so the handler can gain confidence that the animal WILL react. Why train in such realistic scenarios? So they know what to do in any foreseeable situation without having to revert to the instruction sheet.
It's a shame we don't train our human officers with such passion.
The odds are in favor that if a person frequently and realistically trains with an item, they will demonstrate competence with that item under heightened levels of stress.
Infrequent, confusing or poorly contrived training leads us back to our most base instincts.
Stay Safe,