The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on March 01, 2010, 10:13:52 PM
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I was shooting in the FL IDPA championship this weekend on a stage that was completely blacked out. The only light available to me was a flashlight, which by IDPA rules could not be mounted on the gun. I got my hits (-5 over 8 targets) but was way too slow, just too much fumbling with the light. But I do have some observations about that exercise as it relates to choosing/using night sights, laser grips, etc.
Without a light, night sights or laser grips really are not doing anything for you. The scenario I was in was completely blacked out- no ambient light at all. As I approached the targets (shooting through portals and pieing corners), I would light them up and my sights were available. I tried that without a light but had grips or night sights, I would have been literally shooting in the dark with no real clue where my targets where until muzzle flash lit them up.
I also remember shooting in similar conditions with my S&W 649 with CT laser grips. I noticed that on a poorly lit (95% blacked out) target the laser was not very useful to me; again with a light the laser would have been much more helpful.
The only option I can think of that would help more than what I mentioned above, but still would need a light, is a slide mounted red dot. And I would be remiss if I did not mention, that I don't practice enough (like not at all) with a light and that I should practice with one.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not peeing on your favorite night sights or laser grips but I think it's important to understand they have some functional limitations one should be aware of.....
A couple of notes:
I was shooting a Glock 19 with FO front sight and plain Warren rear sight.
I had a Surefire flashlight
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FA technique, is everything when combining a light with a handgun or long gun, no magic combo, even when using a laser, you need to see the target ( threat ) sights and properly apply the trig. Practice with different holds as far as the lighting system go's.
Many to choose from, but now you have used at least one system and found it wanting.
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FA technique, is everything when combining a light with a handgun or long gun, no magic combo, even when using a laser, you need to see the target ( threat ) sights and properly apply the trig. Practice with different holds as far as the lighting system go's.
Many to choose from, but now you have used at least one system and found it wanting.
I almost forgot to mention that I had a slide lock reload to perform too- that was fun!
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I've had really good luck with the Combat Ring made by SureFire. I'm able to use multiple holds, strobe it intermittently, as well as get the light away from me when I'm scanning a room.
The best part to me is that it hooks onto my finger and when I need to reload, or clear a malfunction, all I have to do it flip it over to the back of my hand. It's a relatively cheap solution for a light that most of us already have.
I think we all need more practice with low and no light situations. Unfortunately it is very difficult to find a range which will let you shoot after dark.
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The good news is that the scenario was pretty extreme. The likelihood of actual pitch darkness is not very high... and, of course, you need some light before you can identify threats and the threat needs some light to find you... Be careful about over thinking responses for contrived scenarios that aren't really plausible.
-RJP
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This crap about lasers and all the other non iron site SH it has been done and redone. Time to leave it alone. ::)
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The good news is that the scenario was pretty extreme. The likelihood of actual pitch darkness is not very high... and, of course, you need some light before you can identify threats and the threat needs some light to find you... Be careful about over thinking responses for contrived scenarios that aren't really plausible.
-RJP
But Rob wasn't it you who said, "the exception to your training should be easier than you train"? ;) I do get your point though, I'm just relating an experience that kind of goes against the conventional wisdom about night sights and lasers.
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This crap about lasers and all the other non iron site SH it has been done and redone. Time to leave it alone. ::)
Unless I'm taking your comment the wrong way, I'll just say "whatever"......
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Yeah, FA... that is absolutely one of our training principles... but it has go hand in hand with the Plausibility Principle or you end up training for fighting against 30 zombies with only a butter knife and one eye. ;)
You're right about the conventional wisdom issues, but 2How is also kinda right about how people probably worry more about this than they need to. There is a world of difference between "most bad things happen after sunset" and the "if you don't have well rehearsed tactics and techniques involving lights you're going to be unable to defend yourself!" shenanigans.
-RJP
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FA
I have no credentials to back me up here. Just one principle and one concern. The principle is: If you can see your target and see your sights you're good. The concern is this. Most of us don't have carry pieces with lights. That means juggling a light in the weak hand. Lights are good, guns are better. If I have to deal with a lights out scenario, I'd rather rely on night vision (I live in suburbia where there is always an ambient glow, and in my house there are some small wattage lights lit), than worry over much about juggling a flashlight. Its something I should practice more, but in So. Fl., low light, as opposed to no light, is far more likely.
FQ13
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I shot in the 2007 IDPA Nat's. The last stage was sponsored by Blackwater. It was inside an indoor range. They had taped these strobe lights to the floor. Then they shut off the lights.
With the strobe lights flashing, it was really distracting.
I shot it without a flashlight. I really do think that having a flashlight on that stage would have just slowed me down.
I think at across the room distances with just bad guys...you do NOT need a flashlight or a laser...or sights for that matter.
I'm sorry...I am just NOT buying into the hype of $100 flashlights. I'm not a "gear queer".
Anywhoo...one of these days I will have to upload my hatcam footage of that match to YouTube.
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I don't know how relevant to the thread this may be, but about tritium night sights = LE friend of mine that was providing support for SWAT one night was doing a search. The suspect was hiding in an abandoned building (warehouse I believe). They shut the doors behind them to prevent backlighting theirselves (him and his partner) as targets (they were blocking the entrance to prevent the target from coming back through). One thing that he had noticed was that as they were standing there, their tritium night sights was producing enough light that each could see the other without any additional light source. He didn't know if this was enough to light them up as targets but he is certainly more aware of the future possiblity.
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But Rob wasn't it you who said, "the exception to your training should be easier than you train"? ;) I do get your point though, I'm just relating an experience that kind of goes against the conventional wisdom about night sights and lasers.
I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.
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I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.
Yeah, that was kinda what I was getting at. There is a training lesson to be learned here... "don't worry so much about extremely contrived circumstances that comes from games" might be a way to put it. :)
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I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.
Absolutely!!! Well said.
Scenario Question from the Prosecutor of the Civil Case Against You: So, Mr. Smith, how did you know that the person you were shooting at, my poor crippled for life client, was actually armed? After all it was low light and by your own testimony difficult to see things.
Answer: Well, you (explicative deleted) I drew my personal flashlight from my pocket and used it as I was trained; to identify the weapon in your client's hand.
Obviously it won't happen exactly like that, but having a light with you could mean the difference between being the defendant or the person who goes home after the investigation.
If you leave home with a concealed carry firearm, you should also have a cell phone, extra ammunition, at least one knife on your centerline and a flashlight.
My CCW kit includes my sidearm, my BUG, 2 mags since I'm one of those 1911 guys, 2 of the exact same knife with window breakers, my charged cell phone with GPS and 2 Surefire Executive flashlights. (Ankle Vaults are a wonderful thing) I also carry a small first aid kit with a pressure bandage and clotting agent.
It's not paranoid, it's prepared.
Stay safe,
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Yeah, that was kinda what I was getting at. There is a training lesson to be learned here... "don't worry so much about extremely contrived circumstances that comes from games" might be a way to put it. :)
Rob,
You are a "tactical snob"..... ;D
I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training, in my limited opinion.
Corrected it for you..... ;D
I'm not going to debate IDPA here, that's been done in a thread from about 18 months ago. The club I shoot at makes an honest attempt to create plausible scenarios, though they are limited. But I do realize it is a game with more formal rules than USPSA, in my limited opinion.
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I have never shot any matches, but if I were to equate what I've read here it would be the LSAT. Its a test for law school but it isn't about law, but about the way you think. The described scenario seems to be along the same lines. It may not be a practical, but it tests how you will think tactically on the fly.
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WatchmanUSA wrote:
I'll just add that IDPA is a game, a recreational activity, it is not training.
Oh NO You didn't!!
:o
Just kidding... ;D
It is at this point that most threads on other forums would spiral down into nothing more than internet pissing contests.
This is just my anecdotal experience over about 12 years worth of matches with respect to the training thing....99.9% of the cops who come to shoot any type of match IDPA, USPSA, or steel, never show up again. I suspect it is quite the blow to their egos when they see their names at the bottom of the results page, and then they think, "But...but...but...I'm trained!?!?" :-\
I reckon IDPA and USPSA is a lot like a boxer going into the gym and working on the heavy bag or the speed bag. It is a simulator of sorts.
I guess if I had the room, something like a heated/air conditioned pole barn, and the friends with the airsoft guns and paintball masks then I/we would try our hands at force on force training. The only catch though is, I think, the invasive of the masks...not being able to read people's faces or expressions as well...and the other downside is that, I think, to get the full effect of it, all the bud's who had not shot the stage yet, would have to be kept in another room. It is best if they don't know who or when is going to "attack" them.
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First off, let me say, I believe the stage shot without some light is very unrealistic! I also agree it is a game. I have shot one at the USPSA Nationals with a FL and felt it was OK for a game but not something I really liked (almost beat Rob Leatham or he almost beat himself to be more specific). Also I would not go anywhere that was that dark looking for a BG especially not at 63 Y'sO even though my night vision is pretty good! I know, I know someone will say "But what if...?" No buts, I'd leave that to the pros.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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First off, let me say, I believe the stage shot without some light is very unrealistic! I also agree it is a game. I have shot one at the USPSA Nationals with a FL and felt it was OK for a game but not something I really liked (almost beat Rob Leatham or he almost beat himself to be more specific). Also I would not go anywhere that was that dark looking for a BG especially not at 63 Y'sO even though my night vision is pretty good! I know, I know someone will say "But what if...?" No buts, I'd leave that to the pros.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
Hey Richard,
Why do you think the overall experience of competitive shooting was less than realistic? Was it a lack of finality for a miss? Lack of life or death stress? Missing the immediate, personally felt through pain, feedback?
Did you find it stressful or fun? In between? Did you experience any of the effects of stress while competing?
Did you always have the thought in your mind that it was only a game?
Any input you may have will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Stay Safe,
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98% of the time I have my surefire clipped to one pocket and a blade in another with the pistol behind the hip. You need to train with the minium and to using all the tools in the tool box in as many enviroments that you can.
CD
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This one ran its course and went off topic.... the Competition related posts were split out.
-RJP