The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: garand4life on March 04, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
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I went into our local convenience store to pick up a much needed bottle of Dr. Pepper. Yes, it's my version of alcohol. Any way, as I'm standing in line to check out this idiot who was probably in his late 40's to early 50's comes up to within 3 or 4 feet and is looking at me in a really odd way. Just to note I carry everywhere and today I had my MP9c in a fobus paddle strongside under a t-shirt and a fleece vest. Well concealed never had any trouble with this setup. He stands there for about 20 seconds or so just looking at me so I preempt him by just saying, "how's it going". And he just says the strangest thing to me. "You think you're gonna need a gun!?". I had know idea what he was talking about. "Sorry?", I answered. And he continues to yell at me about the fact if I don't get away from him I'm gonna need a gun. At this point he takes his left hand and reaches to where my holster was. At this point I was scared to death of what the hell is this guy doing?
I make it a habit to keep my right hand empty in case I need to access the weapon. When he reached for my holster I took one step back moving my gun side away from him. As soon as I realized what he was apparently trying to do I verbally told him to step back and then when he attempted to reach for my again I stepped into him with as much of my weight as I could, without presenting my holster side to him, and tried to push him back. He continued to reach for me and thank God the guy in front of me, who dwarfed me by at least 8 inches in height stepped into and grabbed the guy. They exchanged words, and fortunately the gal behind the counter who I work with at our church called police. She knows I choose to carry legally and supports the idea that I do since her store gets held up on more than a few occasions.
As soon as she called this wacko left the store in a hurry. I know I didn't expose my sidearm. I am very conscious of the fact I have it and take extra effort to insure I don't print. I still don't know how this guy knew I was armed. I explained that to police and fortunately the responding officer knows me and that I would not be careless about carrying. The only way that the responding officer and I could think of is if the guy saw me getting out of my car and the shirt and west got pushed up by the seat belt. I know that I checked to make sure it was down after I got out, but if he saw it in the few seconds it took between me getting out of the car and the point when I gave the shirt a tug to ensure it was concealing.
I wouldn't mind some thoughts on what I could have done since obviously I would not have been justified, i think, in drawing on him.
I'm still a little rattled by the incident. The officer agreed that I didn't do anything wrong and that I did as far as what he heard from witnesses everything I could do in this situation.
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What a nut case, good job on keeping your wits about you. He's threatened by you gun but physically approaches you and confronts you about it? He must be a real crazy fellow. If someone tries to disarm you of your lawfully carried weapon, I imagine you would be justified if you drew it. But that could escalate real quick. Good luck.
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I don't know, every situation is uniquely different.......Sounds like you handled it as best as you could.
The one area I might have reacted differently was the pushing part (and this is just my opinion). I might not have pushed into or advanced at him. I might have continued to try to move away..... while loudly asking for the police to be called...... As long as you are trying to avoid him and he is advancing, if it turns 'ugly' you are not seen as an aggressor in the incident.
The 'flip-side' argument to this is, in many places, once he put his hands on your person to start with, all bets are off. If he was not armed, and you are trained to do so, use whatever non-lethal means you have to stop his aggression.
50/50 coin toss.
Glad it didn't escalate into something bad.
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I wish I had a picture of where I was so it would be easier to understand. This store has a single check out in the corner of the front of the store angled toward the middle of the store. Where I was standing did not offer much room to move away, especially with people behind me. I guess my hope was to force him back enough to give myself more standoff distance in the case where I actually had to escalate the response. All in all I wish I had training in more empty hand methods. Michael J. come to OHIO I need your course!!!!
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I wish I had a picture of where I was so it would be easier to understand. This store has a single check out in the corner of the front of the store angled toward the middle of the store. Where I was standing did not offer much room to move away, especially with people behind me. I guess my hope was to force him back enough to give myself more standoff distance in the case where I actually had to escalate the response. All in all I wish I had training in more empty hand methods. Michael J. come to OHIO I need your course!!!!
Well, in my un-professional mind, that clarifies it enough to say you probably did what you could as well as the situation allowed.
This is another incident that further proves the need for tactics and training outside the realm of firearms only.
It'll be good to hear what MJ & RP might have to offer on this.
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Was he "hanging out" in front of the store when you pulled up? ??? He must have caught a glimpse of something. Glad it was handled without having to draw on an unarmed wierdo. Also glad he didn't have a knife, and you kept your cool.
Maybe just an angry, bitter, guy with nothing better to do but try to bully an armed person......That is one day going to get him a Darwin Award.
Amazing how fast a "normal" situation can just change in an instant; your sixth sense worked with this dude, and your whole situational awareness state of mind, really is a good thing to have, that goes for anyone who carries also.
I carry left side IWB, which is my strong side, or back pocket with my P3AT in a Nemesis "wallet" holster, but before opening the car door, I make any adjustments to shirt, and holster, as this side will be the first side facing outward, just a habit similar to when I return to my car.
Glad it turned out the way it did.
Stay Safe.
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The only vantage point I can think of that he may had would be if he was in the car parked to my right. He could have seen me adjust it through my passenger window. Cause usually when I check it's while the majority of my strong side is still angled at the car so I have my door and the body of the car to obscure prying eyes. I think this guy was up to something the way he acted or he was drugged up cause I made no contact with him in the store till he walked up to me.
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sometimes you just get made.
i remember standing behind a guy at a sporting goods store and i just knew that he was carrying, you couldnt see the gun physically but it was the way he carried himself.
as long as you were doing all you can to conceal it then dont sweat it.
good job keeping your cool, i would have probably ended up punching the guy for grabbing my gun but im way too jumpy when im just standing around like a lemon.
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Wow! I can't believe more people don't carry in a world full of psychos like that. Good job keeping the situation from getting out of hand. I've been tossing around the idea of carrying a tazer just for events like that. Something like that is just a lose/lose situation. If he were to wrestle your sidearm from you he could kill you. In my eyes you would be justified in fearing for you life. But if you took that course you would probably lose in court. Because the lawyers would portray it as you slaughtering an unarmed man in cold blood, and they would say that it wouldn't even have happened if you didn't have the gun to begin with. Just a bad deal all around. I'm glad you came though alright in the end.
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You did a great job in keeping your cool and continuing to think your way through the situation. I agree that sometimes you just get made.
Did you have to bend over or reach up high to get the drink? Perhaps he saw it then? Did you reach into your strong side pockets?
I have not had good luck with the hard plastic holsters because they tend to set the weapon off of your body further than I care to have it. Perhaps this guy could see more than you think he could. On this note I would recommend that you set up the concealing garments as you had them and then have a few friends look for your gun. Yes, they have an advantage since they are looking for it and that is the point. If they honestly can't see it then you are GTG. You can also try asking one or two of the local gang unit officers to look for it since they are usually trained to a higher degree in spotting concealed weapons. Just be careful with that route if you don't know any of them. The best people I know for spotting concealed weapons are protective service types. You may want to consider switching to an IWB to avoid possibly flashing people.
When you carry, do you carry a knife? If not, you take the force escalation from 0 to 60 almost immediately. I would recommend that you add a folding knife on your centerline inside your pants. This will permit drawing with either hand and conceal the clip under your belt. Having an edged weapon allows you to escalate within reason and is very helpful when it comes to cutting some parasite's hand off of your gun while you hold it in place with your strong hand.
It is probably not feasible for you to carry an impact weapon, but I know of no law prohibiting the carrying of a flashlight. It would have served you in this case as an impact weapon or potentially as a dis-orientating force if used on strobe. There are many small flashlights available with crenelated bezels which will help you get those leeches to comply with your desire to be left alone.
If nothing else, pick up one of those keychains with a small kubotan attached and keep that in your left hand. A sharp blow to the sternum from a kubotan, a flashlight, a spare magazine or a knife handle may have forced this person to re-think his path. It would have also kept you from having to make body to body contact with him.
Are chemical deterrents or EDWs legal for use in your area? If so you may want to consider either a taser or some pepper spray.
Look for other ways to to defend yourself besides your firearm and you will have more options next time. It will allow you to escalate in an appropriate manner.
Keep in mind that if the situation warrants it, running whenever possible is always your best bet.
You did really well and I admire you for wanting to learn more from the encounter! Experience is the greatest teacher.
Stay Safe,
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Scott,
I normally carry a bigger gun in a Galco Summer Comfort for just the reason you mention. However, in this particular case I carried the same way I have for nearly 3 years. I never had trouble with printing in this setup, especially since I went to the compact 9mm M&P. I have on many occasions carried in places frequented by LEOs and people who jokingly make references to my carrying and have several times looked me over and asked if I was (with this same holster and a bigger gun i might add). I do carry a knife but I don't trust myself in using it for defense and in this instance it was so quick and so unexpected (as if there was any other kind) that I would never have been able to access the blade in time. As close as he was to me the ability for me to get to it was compromised. During the day I normally don't carry anything that would be a good impact tool. And just to mention I threw on my 9 in the paddle because this was such a quick trip a block away that I didn't take my full EDC. When I'm out in the evening or expect to be away for a prolonged time I usually carry either a Surefire G2 flashlight or their 6P Defender model. During the encounter I don't recall every having tunnel vision per se, but definitely my heart rate shot through the roof, the adrenaline spiked and I think that attributed to my actions in backing up and reaching for my holster as well as trying to push this guy back to build distance. The fact that I did that much still surprises me. Again my OCD would have prevented me from blindly taking actions that revealed my gun. I didn't reach up for anything or make any gestures to it. The only way he could have spotted it is when I turned to get out of my PT Cruiser and I puled my shirt back over the gun. He would have had to be paying a lot of attention to me before the fact to ever have had an opportunity to see it.
The guy that helped to intervene in this situation, the tall guy, I still don't know why he acted as I never got to talk with him when the police arrived. I've been told be the responding officers that as far as he has gathered I was completely in the right and I did nothing that he considers in violation of the CCW laws in OHIO. After the fact when the adrenaline high stopped the shakes didn't even lighten up for several hours. Needless to say I needed the soothing 23 flavors to calm myself. I still am jittery after all of this.
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I think if you take a few people out of this equation then the next step would be to use deadly force. In my opinion your life was in serious jeopardy.
I would of liked the ability of O.C. and depending on time of day a very strong hand-held light to add to this scenario
I would of personally have already drawn my edge-weapon(left in the closed position) for a reinforced strike to the threat with ability to escalate to the use of deadly force by cutting hands and threats away from my holstered gun if needed. Draw of firearm following immediately!
To me it sounded like you were targeted by a mentally diluted individual. You were very lucky and blessed for the way it ended. This person may have been looking to the "suicide by citizen" to end his miserable life and insure his family financial security after they sue the crap out of you for shooting a "poor, mentally unbalanced, down on his luck, alcohol/drug diseased, on his way to turning his life around and UNARMED!! " guy. Get my point? It is just a hypothetical but it doesn't sound as crazy as the incident.
tex
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Great information!
Thank you!!!
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Oddly when I got up this morning my day started really well. First I take my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor Certification this weekend. So not only will I be able to add a skill to my resume I will be able to make a little money since I got laid off from ATT back in August and I'll get plenty of trigger time with my new M&Ps to boot. Secondly I went over to an older neighbors this morning to fix a PC issue and as I was waiting on the OS to reload I looked through the shelves of DVDs next to the computer. On the middle shelf was a few that caught my eye. It was almost entirely a Pincus-thon. The entire NRA Personal Defense Collection as well as Combat Focused Shooting and a few others from back in the Valhalla days. So I managed to arrange to borrow them for a few weeks. I hope I'll be able to get to them soon. So all of this asses stupidity really put a kink in my good day. And as I sit here typing this I am trying to put my range bag back together from the winter lull and finish cleaning my M&P collection for the class. Thanks for the reassurance with this situation and again if Michael Janich happens to be coming this way I hope he drops a notice on DRTV I really want to take his class now more than I did before this happened.
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one or two after thoughts:
You may want to seek the advice of an attorney just to put you at total ease. Also just in case something in the future happens you can get a better answer to your what if's. Also you might find it necessary to talk to you Priest or Pastor to set you straight.
and you were in the right.
tex
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one or two after thoughts:
You may want to seek the advice of an attorney just to put you at total ease. Also just in case something in the future happens you can get a better answer to your what if's. Also you might find it necessary to talk to you Priest or Pastor to set you straight.
and you were in the right.
tex
Luckily my dad is a minister here so that's covered. I'm working on getting a hold of an attorney who is a friend of the family to get his thoughts. But, I'm feeling better about the whole thing after talking with a few friends here and online. The lady who was working the register came by the house when she got off a few hours ago. She said that she recognized the guy as being someone who has been a problem for them on more than one occasion. Her manager made a comment to her that the guy has been real shady and likes to loiter outside around the time school lets out. When this happened school had just let out and a good number of middle school aged kids come through there to get a drink and such on their walk home. So I am really concerned this guy may have been up to more than just being an ass to me. This is the point where your imagination starts to run wild. What if this guy was a predator waiting for a child prey. Or maybe he saw me as a threat catching only a glimpse of what he perceived as a firearm. The imagination can create any number of scenarios. I expect to be hearing soon from JJ, one of our local LEOs and the responding officer, to hear what they know about the guy.
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I just caught this, but a couple of observations:
First, hands down, the guy was up to no good.
I carry daily and am pretty aware of my surroundings most times. I will even play "guess who's carrying" in a high traffic areas. That would never be a reaction of someone who conceal carries for SD or anyone else who caught a quick glimpse of a concealed weapon. Even most bed wetters would have left the scene or called the police. That was not this jack-donkey's reaction.
I imagine as others have guessed that he caught a glimpse of your weapon (IWB better than paddle any day IMHO) and considered you a LEO possibly? Or he figured he could intimidate an armed citizen and possibly steal a weapon.
Another trick I learned long before I ever carried a gun: Perception is reality. (I have a silly anecdote to illustrate it if you need one). He was the aggressor in the scenario. A simple shouted, "Get your hand out of my pocket" (reportedly used as a diversionary tactic as Malcom X was shot) will paint the person in a bad light. So in the event you actually have to un-holster your weapon the overall perception of potential witnesses would be you: good guy, wing nut: bad guy.
All in all, it happened quickly, you kept your wits about you and are none the worse for wear. Its much easier to armchair quarterback from down South after thinking about it. Kudos my friend. Count it as a lesson learned with no permanent consequences.
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I can tell right now that I need more lessons in how to react to something like this.
As I was reading it..my heart started beating so fast.. I really don't know what I would do.. as a woman.. I feel like I take all the visual precautions I can.. and I carry all the time on my person when I leave my small hometown..
but that would have freaked me out big time.
I had a guy push up against me and put his hands on my waist once in a very crowed aisle..
I immediately reacted by swinging around and directly looking at him ..
He just looked at me in a funny way and said .. sorry~~
I know he felt my gun.. I moved away from him and made sure of my position and surroundings when I left the store..
That kinda weirded me out.. but an full force verbal and physical encounter would most likely in all honesty battle rattle me..
I'm going to pm Rob Pincus or Michael Janich with this link and see if they will give some advise also.
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Hey everyone... I got a "page"... :-)...
G4life,
You did a great job. (note the period)
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As for some of the advice that has been offered and the follow on discussions:
As soon as I realized what he was apparently trying to do I verbally told him to step back and then when he attempted to reach for my again I stepped into him with as much of my weight as I could, without presenting my holster side to him, and tried to push him back.
Completely justified here. As you note, you stepped back, he reached in again. Your counter-attack trying to create space is fine. Tactically, it may or may not have been appropriate.. but doing something certainly was.
Look for other ways to to defend yourself besides your firearm and you will have more options next time.
(From Scott)
I agree with the concept here... and I think your actions (above) met the concept.. you did defend yourself with means other than the firearm. First Verbally. Then with an unarmed technique.
All of the tools that were mentioned are options... but they may still be "lethal" options, don't fool yourself about that. You draw a knife, it's lethal just like the gun. In many jurisdictions, a baton could also be considered lethal. Of course, you can scale their use... but you still go from "0 to 60" in many cases. Having the knife in the case of a gun - grab is one thing, having a knife as a "middle ground" is something entirely different.
I agree that sometimes you just get made.
It happens. All we can do it try not to let it happen and then be ready if it does. There is a big stir in this country about Open Carry right now... I think it is not the way to go,.. partially because of situations just like this one. If nothing else, hopefully everyone who reads this thread or hears the story will think about what they would do in the situation if they get "called out". This exposure to the fact that it could happen will make responding more efficient for whichever one it happens to next. Think about it now so you have some intuitive options. As Mr. Janich says: Have a Plan, then Work Your Plan.
-RJP
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G4L, you handled it better than I would have.
I would have yelled "get your hands off my wallet!" and kicked him in the nuts. ;D
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G4L, you handled it better than I would have.
I would have yelled "get your hands off my wallet!" and kicked him in the nuts. ;D
I believe that would be the proper, less than lethal, move.
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Great idea!!~~~
I could holler~~" Get your hands off my................"... ;D
Thanks Rob.... :-*
(((All you guys could take some lessons from Mr Pincus on an issue he didn't cover..
How to jump from a speed of "0-60'...when getting a request from me.. ;) )))
**grinning**
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Great idea!!~~~
I could holler~~" Get your hands off my................"... ;D
Broom?
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Ohhhhhhh~~ that is low....low low low I say~~ ;D ;D
Of course my broom.. what else do I have that's worth grabbing.............. ;)
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Broom?
Ohhhhhhh~~ that is low....low low low I say~~ ;D ;D
Of course my broom.. what else do I have that's worth grabbing.............. ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I agree with the concept here... and I think your actions (above) met the concept.. you did defend yourself with means other than the firearm. First Verbally. Then with an unarmed technique.
All of the tools that were mentioned are options... but they may still be "lethal" options, don't fool yourself about that. You draw a knife, it's lethal just like the gun. In many jurisdictions, a baton could also be considered lethal. Of course, you can scale their use... but you still go from "0 to 60" in many cases. Having the knife in the case of a gun - grab is one thing, having a knife as a "middle ground" is something entirely different.
-RJP
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Actually what I was advocating here was a sensible escalation of force appropriate to the level the attacker presented. In this case the application of a simple sternum strike using the handle of a CLOSED knife, a spare mag or a flashlight would most likely have stopped the individual in his tracks. More of a 0 to 30 option. It also would have given the defender the opportunity to avoid the body to body contact he experienced. This meant the defender was within the grasp of the attacker through the defender's own doing. The degeneration of any encounter to that of a wrestling match is what we all try to avoid. A shoulder check is a viable option if no other choice is available.
I agree that a flashlight, a knife, a kubotan, EDWs and chemical deterrents are potentially lethal. So are a pen and keys. However they are considered less lethal alternatives to the use of a firearm. They provide a reasonable, effective and suitable alternative to feeling like your only options are verbal, H2H or deadly force. If a person is consigned to use such items they should seek professional training so they can formulate a plan.
Trite, but very true: If the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem will look like a nail.
I am in no way saying that G4life did anything wrong. He originally asked for other viewpoints. Mine is that he explore other options regarding the tools for escalation. To be clear this means that he and the rest of us, obtain legal counsel regarding the escalation of force and how those laws apply to us individually. Then, use the tools available to us, including verbal assets, within the restrictions of those laws as each person deems appropriate to their needs. After that, ask the introspective question; Will 12 reasonable people in your locale consider your planned actions reasonable?
Ultimately, most plans go to pot as soon as the first shot is fired so being adaptable to the dynamic of the encounter is most likely going to save lives. Having options is never a bad thing because sometimes the problem is not quite a nail.
Above all else, obtain professional training for any item you choose to use for self defense. Practice with those items. Decide how you will use them before you need them. Finally, remember to think your way through the encounter.
Stay Safe,
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I think The Picus hit the nail right on the head, and his points were mostly the ones I was going to touch on..... I will also add that you probably should not have attempted the push unless you were 100% certain he was going to go down - perhaps the inclusion of a trip of some sort might have helped facilitate that.
I personally would not have tried the push becuase I know my own personal limitations and I can assure you that the odds would have greatly favored the guy not going down ;D Distance and verbage would have been my answer.... all the while trying to keep my gun side as far away from the dude as possible.
Overall I think you did good. I am glad that you had friends on the inside when this all happened - store clerk, cop, and the good citizen that stepped in to help....... if you have not thanked them yet, you should.
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Scott-
In most areas, a knife is legally considered a deadly weapon. Once that blade is out, you made it all the way to 60.
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Scott-
In most areas, a knife is legally considered a deadly weapon. Once that blade is out, you made it all the way to 60.
Yes, I agree.
Please understand that I am NOT saying that a knife is not a deadly weapon. They are the most prolific potentially deadly weapon in every hoplophobe's house. Most likely the most prolific in America.
What I am saying is that a closed folding knife held in the hand is a suitable and reasonable alternative to going H2H or to deadly force. It reinforces the strike while mitigating the potential for damaging the hand. If you were sitting on a jury would you consider the handle of a closed folding knife used to reinforce a strike to the sternum to be a deadly application of force? Is it not a reasonable LTL response to a disparity of force? Would you convict or exonerate an individual for this defensive action?
The same holds true for the other LTL self defense tools. They are a suitable alternative to going directly to a firearm. Use any of the tools I have described in an alternative manner and you create a window for explanation. Use a firearm as a bludgeon and you are likely to be deemed irresponsible.
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I have been following this thread and the FOF thread going on...and I wonder if even a simple FOF scenario with an aggressor just trying this type of weapons grab would have helped feel more comfortable in this situation?
Let you know what moves you could make to keep distance or less than advanced martial arts strikes that would offer discouragement.
It seems that just the fact that "you have been there" would make your decisions more comfortable.
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The main problem, I fear, with employing a knife, even as a non-lethal weapon is that, unless you get a jury made up of people who watch "The Best Defense" or any of "The Pincus'" videos, they're going to hear that scary "k-word" and hear NOTHING about the way in which it was employed.
You must remember, juries are made up of people who aren't clever enough to get out of jury duty.
Personally, I like Bogan's approach. ;D
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I have been following this thread and the FOF thread going on...and I wonder if even a simple FOF scenario with an aggressor just trying this type of weapons grab would have helped feel more comfortable in this situation?
Let you know what moves you could make to keep distance or less than advanced martial arts strikes that would offer discouragement.
It seems that just the fact that "you have been there" would make your decisions more comfortable.
Absolutely!
The benefit of training in context is invaluable. As long as it is realistic it will most likely help. Having been there is a great way to feel more comfortable when you are forced to go again. Just BE SAFE DOING IT!
Stay Safe,