The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: JSC3ATLCSO on March 05, 2010, 11:25:24 PM
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I did some searches to see if this has been brought up but has anyone heard of the guy that on two different days took his kids up into the control tower at JFK?
The question being is What is the Valued Opinion of DRTV members on this subject?
I think as it has been reported at this time there is no big deal. The media is freaking out over something that I'm sure has happened before. It isn't like someone wasn't standing right there and puppeteering the kid. Media Sucks! >:(
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Saw in the paper it was during the school vacation . Dad was telling the kid what to say and he was passing it on.
None of the pilots on the quotes from the radio traffic seemed anything but amused.
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Yeah. That is what I'm getting from the media reports but they are trying to crucify this dude for taking his kids to one of the busiest places on earth and with a high level of security and responsibility.
Morgan Freeman and Jay Leno just spoke about it on Leno and both said what's the big deal. The kids handed off planes to a different controller within the tower.
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Well, it seems like BS but considering the Security violations, and FAA licensing regs that were broken in what is SUPPOSED to be a "high security area" filled with "Highly Trained Professionals", and WORST of ALL, It got to the media !
His employer (former ) or the courts, will crucify this guy.
But it's BS, I think the pilots got a chuckle and the kid had the time of his life .
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Sounded rather cute actually dunno how cute it be if two planes crashed but.....
anyway heres the voices.
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As a professional pilot, I can see both sides of teh argument based on how busy a day it was. All airports have busy days and not so busy days. And at places like JFK, ATL, LAX they have certian times of teh day that are busier than others called pushes... so if it was a super slow time what is teh harm?? If dad was there with his own headset on, no biggy. BUt when radiop chatter is so bad you cant hardly get your calls in, this wouldnt have been a good idea, and runway incursion is a big problem, and if something had gone wrong with this kid running tower frequency....Cluster F*ck...
Additionally was it a VFR day where the weather was super clear or were all the planes shooting ILS to minimums???
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As a professional pilot, I can see both sides of teh argument based on how busy a day it was. All airports have busy days and not so busy days. And at places like JFK, ATL, LAX they have certian times of teh day that are busier than others called pushes... so if it was a super slow time what is teh harm?? If dad was there with his own headset on, no biggy. BUt when radiop chatter is so bad you cant hardly get your calls in, this wouldnt have been a good idea, and runway incursion is a big problem, and if something had gone wrong with this kid running tower frequency....Cluster F*ck...
Additionally was it a VFR day where the weather was super clear or were all the planes shooting ILS to minimums???
Stinks to be you.
All that time traveling and you don't even get to see the movie :-[
;D
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Must be a slow news week.
The knee jerking continues. ::)
I say "No harm, no foul".
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On another forum, someone brought up the point that this used to be called "apprenticeship", or maybe "bring your kid to work day".
The statists have to find fault with everything so they can step in and be the nanny gummint they have always wanted to be, so yeah, this is way overblown and the punishment will be seriously overwrought.
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my 2 cents, the guy should have known better. there is 1 ATC school in the nation, it has a 90% wash out rate. you don't become a ATC at JFK with out lots of exp and high evals. I would bet its one of the most regulated porfession in the US. AT no time should there be a distraction like a young child in the room.
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This is what you get after Reagan busted the Air Traffic Controllers Union in the 80s, Chld Labor!
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my 2 cents, the guy should have known better. there is 1 ATC school in the nation, it has a 90% wash out rate. you don't become a ATC at JFK with out lots of exp and high evals. I would bet its one of the most regulated porfession in the US. AT no time should there be a distraction like a young child in the room.
Wow TAB. Normally I'm pretty indifferent about the TAB TOMBOGAN FQ and so on war on who is right wrong or indifferent. This time I even think you may be a little on the wrong side. Like Tyler said. No harm No Foul. I guess every profession has some sort of ride along day's. My dad works at a Power Plant and he can take visitors if he'd like to give a tour. I work at a power company I use to work at a sheriff's office and I could have visitors. We haven't heard the entire story yet but I really hope this works out for the guy and supervisor.
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Wow TAB. Normally I'm pretty indifferent about the TAB TOMBOGAN FQ and so on war on who is right wrong or indifferent. This time I even think you may be a little on the wrong side. Like Tyler said. No harm No Foul. I guess every profession has some sort of ride along day's. My dad works at a Power Plant and he can take visitors if he'd like to give a tour. I work at a power company I use to work at a sheriff's office and I could have visitors. We haven't heard the entire story yet but I really hope this works out for the guy and supervisor.
so if I build you a house and it falls down, but you were at work so no one was hurt, its a "no harm no foul" right? would you trust me to rebuild it?
Now I've never been in the pilots seat for a comm'l airliner, but I have been in one for 7 diffrent light aircraft. by the time you see a contact its normally too late to avoid it. ATCs don't mess around, if you don't fallow thier instuctions right now they can and will have you grounded.
We are not talking about a profession where you may have one or two people at risk, we are talking about one were hundreds of lives are at stake.
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so if I build you a house and it falls down, but you were at work so no one was hurt, its a "no harm no foul" right? would you trust me to rebuild it?
Now I've never been in the pilots seat for a comm'l airliner, but I have been in one for 7 diffrent light aircraft. by the time you see a contact its normally too late to avoid it. ATCs don't mess around, if you don't fallow thier instuctions right now they can and will have you grounded.
We are not talking about a profession where you may have one or two people at risk, we are talking about one were hundreds of lives are at stake.
That doesn't sound like the same analogy. It would be more that you took your 9 year old son to work and allowed him with your supervision to tell a sub-contractor on site to build my house and then it fell down. So who's fault is it. I don't know and if I wasn't home yeah.. that is why I pay for insurance Even if I was home at the time I'm either going to be dead or I'll be hurt in the ACCIDENT and again that is why I pay for insurances
Another thing I have heard is that all the kids did was hand the pilots off to a departure controller. So he told them they could push off and then contact departure before departing or however that goes. I want to talk to my uncle and a couple of friends that ARE commercial pilots to see what they say about this.
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here is the important question.
If I walked up to the tower, would they let me in? what if I took my child to the tower would they let them in? Would they let me use the radio? would they let my child use the radio?
If the answer is no, why was this kid ok?
Comm'l pilots IMOs means very little in this case, its the ATC union and the FAAs IMOs that are going to matter.
At the very least the faa is going to drop his rating and investage every part of his life, both professionally and peronally.
Its better and cheaper to just fire him, he did something he knew he was not supose too, how is that not grounds for instant termantion?
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My father was s service rep. for a large Engine Company out of Oakland Ca, from 1951-1983 when retired. He traveled all over the world foe the Comp. When he did service call close to home I would go with him. One service call was on a McDermiet tow boat pushing 22 coal barges down the Mississippi river to New Orleans. We picked up the boat in Baton Rouge at around 7:30pm. I was in the wheelhouse watching everything that was going on. The First Mate asked me I wanted to take the wheel. He showed me how two wach the Radar for River traffic and the Bowies. I was at the controls from about twelve midnight to around three Am. I was about fourteen on this trip. The things we used to get away with, back in the fifties and sixties we would have all gone to jail for. The only thing I can say, everyone is getting PUSSYFIED, scared of their own shadow………..
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Technically TAB is right,This guy violated all sorts of rules.
That doesn't mean he did anything that was "wrong".
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Technically TAB is right,This guy violated all sorts of rules.
That doesn't mean he did anything that was "wrong".
The fact that he knew ( or should have) better makes it wrong.
I'm not arguing the rules are right or wrong( in this case I think they are right), I'm arguing the guy knew(or should have) what he was doing was wrong, now he has to pay the price.
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here is the important question.
If I walked up to the tower, would they let me in? what if I took my child to the tower would they let them in? Would they let me use the radio? would they let my child use the radio?
If the answer is no, why was this kid ok?
Comm'l pilots IMOs means very little in this case, its the ATC union and the FAAs IMOs that are going to matter.
At the very least the faa is going to drop his rating and investage every part of his life, both professionally and peronally.
Its better and cheaper to just fire him, he did something he knew he was not supose too, how is that not grounds for instant termantion?
Well first off it is "HIS" kid.. not your kid or some strange kid he picked up in the airport and said you wanna go to the tower with me. That would be a whole different set of charges. Same being some strange adult. If I were friends with this dude and wanted to get some kind of visitors clearance to go up. As an adult I personally am not interested in getting on the radio as I would think most people would be. It is a kid and he let him say a prescripted line to a pilot. (Probably nothing of great responsibility either)
Side note. Being a 911 Dispatcher and now a Power Line Distribution Dispatcher I think it would be cool as hell to go and see a tower. Those guys/gals are the top of my profession and I know the stress they are in every day to bring a little humor and light heartedness to the comm center would be a welcome relief.
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thats just it, he though he could make a expection becuase it was his kid. A child, is a child, is a child. That is how the FAA will see it. Remember goverment agencys with 3 letters don't use lube.
Beleave it or not, everything that is said between the tower and the plane is regs, there is zero conversation. Infact most of them speak so fast, its very hard for the lay person to even understand them. Its strait to the point, the tower tells you what to do, you do it. its that simple, they are giving you orders, you must fallow them.
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thats just it, he though he could make a expection becuase it was his kid. A child, is a child, is a child. That is how the FAA will see it. Remember goverment agencys with 3 letters don't use lube.
Beleave it or not, everything that is said between the tower and the plane is regs, there is zero conversation. Infact most of them speak so fast, its very hard for the lay person to even understand them. Its strait to the point, the tower tells you what to do, you do it. its that simple, they are giving you orders, you must fallow them.
I'm bet you miss the inherent problem with "Zero tolerance Policy".
You must have been a real barrel of laughs in college ::)
The guy is stuck for child care during school vacation .
For a kid with ANY interest in aviation , getting to actually participate would be like a trip to the Moon
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and that makes it less against the rules how?
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Weren't you ever a normal kid TAB ? Being against the rules is part of the attraction.
Kind of like BASE jumping.
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kids breaking the rules= normal adults breaking the rules= you get whats coming too you, in this case it will most likly cost him his livlyhood.
tom when the Statute of limitations is up, I'll be more then happy to tell you about some of the stuff I did in college.
Lets just say Its amazing I'm alloud to own guns.