The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: billt on March 10, 2010, 11:42:19 AM
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I've always wanted one, but know little about what makes one "better" over another. For those of you who own them, what kind do you have? Are you happy with it? What about using it in direct Sunlight? All I know is the farther they read, the more they cost. I'm thinking about getting one when I set up this new Kimber .300 Win. Mag. I just bought. Just seems like a nice unit to have. I've never been much good at judging distance, and the technology seems to be getting reasonable enough. Are there wholesale places that sell them cheaper than the major outlet places like Cabela's? Thanks in advance. Bill T.
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Well, not only how far away they'll measure, but how close. My Bushnell won't read less than 11yds. When you're on a hot range and want to know exact how far your target it (5? or 7? yds) yes, I wish it worked better up close.
Also how well they work in adverse conditions. Rain, snow and very bright sunlight.
How narrow is the "beam", the measurement. If you have a clear field to your target, then fine. But what if there is a tree just to one side of your target part of the way downrange. Will the rangefinder ignore the tree? Or do you get a false reading? So at 100 or 1000 yds, what's the smallest discernible "target" the range finder can pick out?
Then what about angles. Up or down angles. Some of the range finders will give you the inclination and the horizontal distance to the target, not just the straight line distance.
How's that for starters?
Oh stay away from the older model Leupold's. There were some problems with them. Their newest line appears to be better.
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Alf gave some good advice, mine is over 10 yrs old and is a Nikon, very accurate to 800 meters, little finicky to operate, it has like 4 modes, for using through brush, hazy, cloudy days, and rain. It is an 8x, and as far as optics is a little grainy. I compared it for distance with by buddies Leica, and at 500 yards, the readings were only decimals apart, so I believe it. I have not tried it at really short distances, I guess I should, I know they make short range finders for bow hunters who need to know exact distance. If I were to buy another 1, I would look for accuracy, clarity, ease of operation, and finally cost. When looking for any kind of firearm hunting related optic, go 1st to SWFA www.riflescopes.com, and include their used list www.samplelist.com, let that be your guide as you go to other sights and shop. They may not be the least expensive, but are always reasonable, especially on the used/demo list.
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I'm just going to throw this out there for the sake of getting a discussion started (God knows that'll be a first ;)) Still and all, here it is. LEARN TO ESTIMATE RANGE! You have bought a very nice rifle and presumably will put a good piece of glass on it. I assume you know how to use mil dots (me I'm still learning :-\). As a USMC sniper said, we like to operate without batteries. I'm not saying range finders are a fred ("F"ing Ridiclous Electronic Device), but I have seen it taken to absurds. I live about 40 yards (estimated ;)) from the 14th green on a golf course. There are guys who know precicely because their balls land right outside my yard (or inside it) to avoid a big honking bunker. They then get out of their carts and use range finders on the pin to figure out whether to use a #9 or a wedge. ::) Anyone wondering why I keep all balls hit into my yard, and give them in a bottle bag as a Christmas gift to a friend (usually about 200) has their question answered right there. Like wise there are the close range, range finders for bow hunting. Nikon, did or does make one. Again ::). If you can't tell the difference between 20 yards and 40, maybe you should learn before shooting at a live target. The point (such as there is) to this is as follows. My advice? You have recognized you have a weakness in judging ranges. Good. Thats the first step to fixing it. Buy a cheap but adequate unit used on ebay. Use that in conjunction with your mil dot to learn range estimation. I bet you will get bored with the toy before long. ;D You'l have learned a skill as valuable as how to read a topo map, and be a better rifleman for it. But again, I just throw this out there to learn from the replies.
FQ13
PS I taught myself this skill wnen I was 16 and under the existing Fl. law could hunt without supervision. I didn't have a range finder. I did have my granddads old 1973 F-100. His advic, was to use it to measure a familar distance using the odometer and use it as a benchmark. He was a forest ranger and surveyor and purely hated anyone who gave directions without knowing how far a mile was. ;D That I knew before he gave me the truck. The difference between 75, 100, 150 and three hundred yards, I had drilled into my head by driving mail box to mail box in my neighborhood. It literally has become a case of "That deer is 200 yards away as its about 3/4ths of the way from my door to the VanPopperings. Not scientific, but damned if it don't work. :-\ I'm still working on mil dot theory and will buy one on my next new scope.
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Bill, while FQ makes a point that "range estimation is a handy skill" to have, but as most of us here are not USMC Snipers I would just ignore most of what he said. ::) Knowing not guessing the correct distance to your target can make the difference in a good clean kill shot, or a miss, or even worse wounding an animal. With that said I have a Bushnell 600 it's about 15 years old now and still works great. I think I paid about $300 for it. They do work better in cloudy weather than in bright sun light. IMO if your going to shoot at unknown ranges over 200 yards on regular basis I think it's a good idea to have one. Mine has monocular view window but binocular objectives and is a 4x power. It works well for the 100-300yrd distances I typically have to hunt in. As it can lead to too many things to carry when hunting you might want to consider them as a replacement for your binoculars and purchase a range finder with enough visual clarity to work in that capacity. Good luck and best wishes I hope you find a winner!
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You're missing the point of my post guns. I want accomplish two things. First to have people like you actually answer Bill's question. But secondly, to have peoople give tips on how to use mil dots etc to estimate ranges sans batteries.
As long as we learn something, its all good.
FQ13
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One thing I've always wondered is will they work in darkness? And do they project a visible Laser beam like a Laser sight does? Bill T.
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One thing I've always wondered is will they work in darkness? And do they project a visible Laser beam like a Laser sight does? Bill T.
You're missing the point of my post guns. I want accomplish two things. First to have people like you actually answer Bill's question. But secondly, to have peoople give tips on how to use mil dots etc to estimate ranges sans batteries.
As long as we learn something, its all good.
FQ13
FQ I've used a mil dot scope and I think it's great for the military shooter who has a deep Federal pocket book for the ammo cost it takes to effective learn how to use it. It's not an easy system to learn, Range estimation only really works well if you know the size of you target. When hunting very few things come in a predetermined size thus using a mil dot scope to estimate the range of the deer or elk is a little difficult. And if your trying to shoot at extended ranges 300+ yards I would rather know than guess my range.
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One thing I've always wondered is will they work in darkness? And do they project a visible Laser beam like a Laser sight does? Bill T.
They do technically work in the dark if you can read the display (mine isn't lit) and it's an IR beam so if you had some NVG's I think you could see it, but not to the necked eye. Mine has a little digital cross hair around a box for sighting on the object you wish range.
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FQ, the things you say are true enough, however they are useless to some one like me , I can only see out of one eye, which makes range estimation very tricky to impossible.
http://www.mil-dot.com/Mil_Dot_User_Guide.htm#Math
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I was reading on an Aussie Forum and a bloke that had the Lupy one ended up getting rid of it for a Swarovski
reckons it was quite a lot better however also quite a lot more $$$
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Some of the Bushnell models appear to give a lot of "bang for the buck". I know a lot of their scopes are the same way. Bill T.
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Some of the Bushnell models appear to give a lot of "bang for the buck". I know a lot of their scopes are the same way. Bill T.
http://www.bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/yardage-pro-riflescope/204124/
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Anybody want to bet if old money-bags-Bill buys a Swarovski? ;D
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Anybody want to bet if old money-bags-Bill buys a Swarovski? ;D
NO ;D ;D
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I was reading on an Aussie Forum and a bloke that had the Lupy one ended up getting rid of it for a Swarovski
reckons it was quite a lot better however also quite a lot more $$$
I can't find on their website where they make rangefinders. :(
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Anybody want to bet if old money-bags-Bill buys a Swarovski? ;D
NO ;D ;D
Hey, if you got the money though, I say spend it on what you want!
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I can't find on their website where they make rangefinders. :(
It's listed under Optronic Instruments, of course. ???
http://www.swarovskioptik.us/en_us/products/optronic-instruments# (http://www.swarovskioptik.us/en_us/products/optronic-instruments#)
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Lets stay on thread, and start a new thread on range finding reticle technique, There are a lot of range finding reticles, I own several, from european to Lupe MK 4's, and a Burris 8x32 with their own version of the Mildot, which are not all created equal, some use ovals, some use dots, the cotension on each is different and can be different at different power settings. You must understand your system, and if you want to be really good, keep a record book. A good friend of mine was the #1 rifle for quite a while on the Dallas Swat team, now retired, but we shot together and competed together, both pistol and rifle, he explained to me, Dallas required each team member to develope their own record book with their rifle/scope combo, and range known objects at different distances, Like the average length of a house door, window, a car tire, a soda can, of course a mature human male. Now put that down in the book, for future use, as these items can be seen in a normal urban setting, even if the shooter is ranging the house next door, but it is not his object. A record book in rifle shooting will make you a better shooter, not just ranging but seeing the patterns of your groups, and how slight sight adjustments, can put you 20% more in the 10 ring or kill zone. It includes, sight settings, angle of the sun, wind direction and speed. Also very important is your call shots, that means when you press the trigger, where did you call it? Then where did it hit? Is it you or the gun? The record book will reveal that to you.
Lets start the new thread ;D
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Lets stay on thread, and start a new thread on range finding reticle technique, There are a lot of range finding reticles, I own several, from european to Lupe MK 4's, and a Burris 8x32 with their own version of the Mildot, which are not all created equal, some use ovals, some use dots, the cotension on each is different and can be different at different power settings. You must understand your system, and if you want to be really good, keep a record book. A good friend of mine was the #1 rifle for quite a while on the Dallas Swat team, now retired, but we shot together and competed together, both pistol and rifle, he explained to me, Dallas required each team member to develope their own record book with their rifle/scope combo, and range known objects at different distances, Like the average length of a house door, window, a car tire, a soda can, of course a mature human male. Now put that down in the book, for future use, as these items can be seen in a normal urban setting, even if the shooter is ranging the house next door, but it is not his object. A record book in rifle shooting will make you a better shooter, not just ranging but seeing the patterns of your groups, and how slight sight adjustments, can put you 20% more in the 10 ring or kill zone. It includes, sight settings, angle of the sun, wind direction and speed. Also very important is your call shots, that means when you press the trigger, where did you call it? Then where did it hit? Is it you or the gun? The record book will reveal that to you.
Lets start the new thread ;D
Amen brother. I would love to see this thread at lenghth and with all the knowledge available on this board. Its why I made the post I did. This kind of thing is why I stay here. You should start it. I would, but I have gotten into too many nonsense political dustups to get the following you would, and I'm not only one here that wants to learn this stuff. What you are talking about is the difference between cooking and baking. Cooking? You go by smell and add a pinch of this and pinch of that until it just feels right. Baking? You measure and weigh everything presicely and pay close attention to every detail. I'm a great cook. I suck as a bakker. I think its the same reason why I think I could bet serious money against you on the skeet range but wouldn't even wager a beer if I didn't want to buy you one any way with a rifle. ;) Your insight, as well as several other military and competition shooters would be a very worthwhile use of bandwidth.
FQ13
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I bought the Leica CRF 1200 the Army chose for one of its kits. It's a monocle style, held in one hand. I got one that reads in yards.
This leads me to a followup question: With these, scopes and binoculars, how important is the glass/ optics? How much better is a $2000 Zeiss than the $19.95 infomercial binocs?
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they have just come out with a new one
CRF-1600
Now with Integrated Measurement of Angle of Elevation/Declination, Temperature and Barometric Pressure.
Leica Rangemaster CRF1600 with
Integrated Intelligent Ballistic Program.
This is one smart bit of gear! And will be available in August 2010.
The new LEICA RANGEMASTER CRF 1600 measures not only the precise distance, it even calculates exactly where the bullet will hit the target in advance.
In addition to the standard ballistic trajectory, its Leica microcomputer also integrates the angle of elevation/declination, the temperature and the barometric pressure in its calculations. This brings an invaluable benefit for hunters, as it displays the point of aim in less than 0.3 seconds without any need to study ballistic tables and without laborious measuring procedures. Hunters can react rapidly and accurately and get their shots right on target in even the most difficult situations.
A further improvement offered by the new Rangemaster 1600 is its extended range of 1500 meters (1600 yards).
Other details include.
Weight is 200 grams.
7X magnification.
Its strong and tough carbon-fiber reinforced body is waterproof to a depth of 1 meter. .
Cost is U.S.$799.00.
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This leads me to a followup question: With these, scopes and binoculars, how important is the glass/ optics? How much better is a $2000 Zeiss than the $19.95 infomercial binocs?
it has everything to do with the quality of the glass / coatings / build quality / warranty
take Zeiss / leupold / Swarovski they are seen as the top of the line ( the prices are ) they have all the coatings and gasses they use to stop fogging up also any issues they have brilliant warranty's ( from what I have read ) I have heard of them replacing 10 year old bino's
also it is all about letting light in and being clear especially at night and sun rise the coatings they use also make a lot of difference ( I have noticed that when using a VXIII scope on my mate's rifle compared to the Tasco on my rifle ( I will when I have the $$$ swap over to a lup)
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Lets stay on thread, and start a new thread on range finding reticle technique, There are a lot of range finding reticles, I own several, from european to Lupe MK 4's, and a Burris 8x32 with their own version of the Mildot, which are not all created equal, some use ovals, some use dots, the cotension on each is different and can be different at different power settings. You must understand your system, and if you want to be really good, keep a record book. A good friend of mine was the #1 rifle for quite a while on the Dallas Swat team, now retired, but we shot together and competed together, both pistol and rifle, he explained to me, Dallas required each team member to develope their own record book with their rifle/scope combo, and range known objects at different distances, Like the average length of a house door, window, a car tire, a soda can, of course a mature human male. Now put that down in the book, for future use, as these items can be seen in a normal urban setting, even if the shooter is ranging the house next door, but it is not his object. A record book in rifle shooting will make you a better shooter, not just ranging but seeing the patterns of your groups, and how slight sight adjustments, can put you 20% more in the 10 ring or kill zone. It includes, sight settings, angle of the sun, wind direction and speed. Also very important is your call shots, that means when you press the trigger, where did you call it? Then where did it hit? Is it you or the gun? The record book will reveal that to you.
Lets start the new thread ;D
Amen brother. I would love to see this thread at lenghth and with all the knowledge available on this board. Its why I made the post I did. This kind of thing is why I stay here. You should start it. I would, but I have gotten into too many nonsense political dustups to get the following you would, and I'm not only one here that wants to learn this stuff. What you are talking about is the difference between cooking and baking. Cooking? You go by smell and add a pinch of this and pinch of that until it just feels right. Baking? You measure and weigh everything presicely and pay close attention to every detail. I'm a great cook. I suck as a bakker. I think its the same reason why I think I could bet serious money against you on the skeet range but wouldn't even wager a beer if I didn't want to buy you one any way with a rifle. ;) Your insight, as well as several other military and competition shooters would be a very worthwhile use of bandwidth.
FQ13
Those are good points for the URBAN shooter. Things in the urban environment are made to specs. Very few of us will ever get to shoot anything in an urban environment! I'm not say they're not good skills to know if the SHTF, but I think what the rangefinder is really for, or at least what I think Bill want's them for, and what I mostly use mine for, is hunting in the wilderness or dessert or what ever wild terrain you have in your neck of the world. I live and hunt in the N.W. very rocky, steep, tree covered terrain. Very few things in my hunting environment have a spec you can base a measurement on. How big or small is a tree, a rock, or a bush?? IDK! My SOP when hunting is to guess what the distance to a given tree or rock is, then I range it to see how well I did. I usually don't do much better that 50% on most ranges. When I pick a stand area for the morning or evening hunt I will range all the likely shooting lanes to see what the maximum ranges are going to be ahead of time. When your looking across a slope 2,3, or 800 yards it's very difficult to guess how close or far things are. The difference in a 200 and 300 yard shot is significant for most calibers, it can likely lead to miss or worse a poor wounding shot. I guess I'm harping on this because I think the technology is there to help us make better shots leading to more humane kills when were out hunting. :)
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Those are good points for the URBAN shooter. Things in the urban environment are made to specs. Very few of us will ever get to shoot anything in an urban environment! I'm not say they're not good skills to know if the SHTF, but I think what the rangefinder is really for, or at least what I think Bill want's them for, and what I mostly use mine for, is hunting in the wilderness or dessert or what ever wild terrain you have in your neck of the world. I live and hunt in the N.W. very rocky, steep, tree covered terrain. Very few things in my hunting environment have a spec you can base a measurement on. How big or small is a tree, a rock, or a bush?? IDK! My SOP when hunting is to guess what the distance to a given tree or rock is, then I range it to see how well I did. I usually don't do much better that 50% on most ranges. When I pick a stand area for the morning or evening hunt I will range all the likely shooting lanes to see what the maximum ranges are going to be ahead of time. When your looking across a slope 2,3, or 800 yards it's very difficult to guess how close or far things are. The difference in a 200 and 300 yard shot is significant for most calibers, it can likely lead to miss or worse a poor wounding shot. I guess I'm harping on this because I think the technology is there to help us make better shots leading to more humane kills when were out hunting. :)
I think we've hit on the core of our argument. You like to hunt at long range. Me, I won't take a shot over a hundred yards (150 on a bad day) as its just the way I like to play the game. For me, not for thee. I'm not passing judgement. Its all good either way as long as you kill cleanly. Its all a game, play by whatever rules make you happy, and I'm the last to judge, largely because I (and the deer) really don't care, as long as you can put the bullets where you want them. The thing is though, my rifles aren't just for hunting. They are for SHTF, and its not a crown roast of vension I'm going to be playing for. I will never shoot at a deer at 300 yards. I am however glad that I got the chance to test my rifle and scope at a 500 yard range. (for the curious, the .270 works fine to 350 or so, then you need to get into serious hold over). Still the steel plates rang at 500 with an out of the box Ruger and a mid range (B@L) scope. Not too shabby if I do say so myself. Thing is, I would like to learn how to do this better. I can tell 75, from 100 yard just fine and do better than that at 15 vs 35, but at longer ranges (say 400-600 plus?). Well, thats why I'm on this board. I think range finders are good, but Guns, if I ever need to shoot at someting 600 yrds away, it won't be a deer and I don't want to trust my life to duracell. Not an argument, just my perspective on this. YMMV.
FQ13
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I think we've hit on the core of our argument. You like to hunt at long range. Me, I won't take a shot over a hundred yards (150 on a bad day) as its just the way I like to play the game. For me, not for thee. I'm not passing judgement. Its all good either way as long as you kill cleanly. Its all a game, play by whatever rules make you happy, and I'm the last to judge, largely because I (and the deer) really don't care, as long as you can put the bullets where you want them. The thing is though, my rifles aren't just for hunting. They are for SHTF, and its not a crown roast of vension I'm going to be playing for. I will never shoot at a deer at 300 yards. I am however glad that I got the chance to test my rifle and scope at a 500 yard range. (for the curious, the .270 works fine to 350 or so, then you need to get into serious hold over). Still the steel plates rang at 500 with an out of the box Ruger and a mid range (B@L) scope. Not too shabby if I do say so myself. Thing is, I would like to learn how to do this better. I can tell 75, from 100 yard just fine and do better than that at 15 vs 35, but at longer ranges (say 400-600 plus?). Well, thats why I'm on this board. I think range finders are good, but Guns, if I ever need to shoot at someting 600 yrds away, it won't be a deer and I don't want to trust my life to duracell. Not an argument, just my perspective on this. YMMV.
FQ13
FQ, I think your largely right in your position. Where you live I know it's very difficult to find spot where you could shoot over a 100yrds. I've hunted in Florida and I could rarely see more than 50 yards, and I don't typically won't shoot at deer over 300 yards many shots are much less, but in the western US what you think is 300 yards can easily be 500 or 800 yards. Shooting across ridges and clear cuts is very possible. Also for me if the SHTF I don't know that I'll stay home for very long. My place is not very defensible, I live in a small bowl, so there are to many high ground spots around my house. In all likely hood I will get the hell out of dodge if things go really bad for more than a couple days. I have the equipment and the skills that I know I can survive for quite some time in the mountains. And the battery doesn't have to last forever I can carry spares but when I get to wherever I'm going to holdup till things blow over, I'll build a range card for my DFP's. And if the battery does run out it's still good for a monocular. BTW I've owned mine for nearly 15 years and I've only replaced the battery once. It only runs the battery when your actively ranging something. So it runs for a very long time on one 9v battery. ;D
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I've had a Bushnell Elite 1500 that I've taken on MANY trips in the last two years. Still running on the same 9v battery I put in it on day 1. It has 7X magnification, and I can typically range things the size of a ground hog out to about 400 yards without much effort. I've repeatedly ranged people out to 1,200 yards, but then it starts getting spotty as to if it will read correctly, or at all on a man size target at that range. It usually takes about two seconds, maybe three to get a reading. And if you can't get a good reading on your target at long range, you can usually find something bigger than them (a car) VERY close to them to get a reading off of.
My "eyeballing it", "guesstimates" at the 600 yard and up ranges have at times been off by WAY more than I'd ever want to admit! Absolutely I think if your going to do any shooting over 300 yards I think it's a great purchase for the average person. I've also often used mine to set up quick target ranges in fields... NICE! And to me this use alone justifies the price to play! ;)
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As I said, the longer they range, the more expensive they are. Is this because of a more powerful Laser unit? If you are ranging to 600 yards would your reading be more accurate from a 1,500 yard unit, than from say a 600 yard unit that is reading close to it's max.?
For what it's worth, I read an interesting article about the Apollo 11 Moon Mission. They placed a type of Laser reflector on the Moon's surface as one of their experiments. To this day it is still in use by NASA. They say they can accurately record the distance from the Earth to the Moon + - 6 INCHES! I thought that was pretty amazing considering the technology that was available back then. Now it is affordable to all of us. And they say a lot of money was "wasted" on the space program. Sometimes people can be so dense. Bill T.