The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: 2HOW on March 10, 2010, 01:27:50 PM
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This from a retired master Sgt from his friend
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This email was forwarded from a Marine who's in Iraq . No politics here;
just a Marine with a bird's eye view opinion:
US Weapons:
1) The M-16 rifle:
Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand
over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes
after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular
because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They
lack the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights
on the picatinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert
environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the
cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits can't be
reliably counted on to put the enemy down.
Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents show a high level of opiate
use.
2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon):
.223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally
considered a piece of shit. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require
partial disassembly (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).
3) The M9 Beretta 9mm:
Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all
hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually
fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and
still in the fight.
4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun:
Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.
5) The M240 Machine Gun:
7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old
M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!) Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable,
and the 7.62 round puts 'em down.
Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being
dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up
the structure over there.
6) The M2 50 cal heavy machine gun:
Thumbs way, way up. "Ma Deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in
gold. The ultimate fight stopper - puts their dicks in the dirt very time.
The most coveted weapon in-theater.
7) The .45 pistol:
Thumbs up. Still the best pistol around out there. Everybody authorized to
carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions,
can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops
guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and
supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en
masse.
8) The M-14:
Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version
to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and
low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment,
and they love the 7.62 round.
9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle:
Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight
train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually
stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. It is definitely here to stay.
10) The M24 sniper rifle:
Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified
Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great
effect. Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has
actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER
100.
11) The new body armor:
Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs.and can reliably be expected
to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news:
Hot as shit to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages
over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever
possible. All the bullshit about the "old" body armor making our guys
vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous
and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.
12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment:
Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own
the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More
and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer
teams. We've all seen the videos.
13) Lights:
Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's,
and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan
carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it. I cant help but
notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more
years old!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons
that everybody wants!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and
brutal. No quarter is given or shown.
Bad guy weapons:
1) Mostly AK47's. The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the
desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed
light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy
mostly shoots like shit. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire.
However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper
rifles. ( Iran, again)
2) The RPG:
Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and
as common as dogshit. The enemy responded to our up-armored Humvees by
aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot
of our guys.
3) The IED:
The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor
mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan 's area were
in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155 mm artillery shells and
wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone and the explosions
are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is
by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are
much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to
penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran,
who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents
in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly
lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape
charges, in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks
that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and
the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.
4) Mortars and rockets:
Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are
becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan 's NCO's lost a leg to one. These
weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". Jordan 's base was hit
almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night
to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a
psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump
out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of
seconds.
Fun fact:
Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and
how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the
Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close
quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know
better now.
Bad guy technology:
Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones
and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation
and "Google Earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are
good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is
TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their
equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of
Intel when captured.
Who are the bad guys? Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al
Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi).
These are mostly "foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over
the Muslim world (and Europe ). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of
course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.), and then travel
down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River
that we've been hitting hard for the last few months.
Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide
bombers or in various "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core
terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.).
These are the guys running around murdering civilians an masse and cutting
heads off.
The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian) are supposedly the most ruthless
and the best fighters. They have been fighting the Russians for years. In
the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired
(and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at
infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. They
have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in
the early 80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured, or gave
up long ago.
Bad Guy Tactics: When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their
asses kicked every time! Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges
were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally
sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and
firing AK's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They
get mowed down like grass every time (see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan 's
base was hit like this often.
When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably
for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air
and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred
to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room). We have the laser guided
ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's,
are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the
open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre Gunships cut them to
ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly,
artillery is hardly used at all.
Fun facts:
The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why
we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber
shit. The new strategy is just simple: attrition.
The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian
non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian
casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and especially Mosques are
locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons, and ammo and
flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for
inflicting civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder
without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the
new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members, especially children, is
common to influence people they are trying to influence but can't reach,
such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc..
The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that
if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi
openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American
serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a
shit about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped
by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi.
As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an
option. The Iraqi's are a mixed bag.. Some fight well; others aren't worth
a damn. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but
they are getting better.
It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers, en masse,
against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi's
were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police
forces went right up, along with their motivation. It also led to an
exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the
insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and
fearless fighters.
Morale:
According to Jordan , morale among our guys is very high.They not only
believe that they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They
are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they
almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are
despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1
and then see shit like "Are we losing in Iraq " on TV and the print media.
For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food, and
leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, is that there are
not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the
insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut
down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just
can't stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course,
permanent US bases there).
Anyway, that's it, hope you found it interesting
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Nice post 2how. Thanks.
FQ13
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Did you also get that email with about the Blair-Holt bill that says you're gonna have to write down all your guns's serial numbers on your tax return?
I'm sorry I'm coming across as an @$$ here, but anything that you get an email, a chain email at that, should be suspect.
I know there is one forum, the Sig forum, that it is absolutely verboten to post anything you get in an email on that forum.
I think I first got that email about 5 years ago.
:( Sorry...I don't mean to be a buzzkill.
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did you read the beginning of the post ? Its a real email.
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Have to second Tyler's opinion here. Real or not this compilation of facts surfaced on the web around 11/05.
Please, don't take it personal.
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Well 2How, looks like you and I are suckers here. It was obvious the post was old as Al Zaquwari (and ask me if I care that I misspelled it ;)) has long since gone to his "70 virgins, goats or whatever". Still, it seemed to give good advice on weapons systems that its hard to argue with. Phony or not, it gave me something to think about and I'm still glad you posted it. As an old Professor of mine once said"You do a greater service by asking an interesting question than you do by having the right answer to a boring one".
FQ13
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Here try this link that debunks it:
http://defensetech.org/2005/11/16/small-arms-in-iraq-what-worked-what-sucked-what-a-hoax/
If you'll look closely, up in the upper right hand corner, I am guessing that somehow defensetech.com and military.com are related. Sister sites or something like that.
Then if you look at the update date, it is November 18, 2005.
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I never claimed it was a new email. I figured when you read it you could put a date on it. It is a "real " email though. It came out in late 2004 . I thought it was a good compilation of how weapons and stuff were working in the sand box. Just some food for thought.
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Most of what I've read and heard about weapons function in the Middle East conflicts, parallels the text of that E-Mail. Bill T.
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Or does most of what you read or heard parallels that email?
:P
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It's no deep, dark secret that the M-4 has had serious functionability problems in Iraq. Google "M-4 rifle problems" and you'll get the phone book, along with enough fireplace reading to keep you busy until late Spring. The 5.56 MM cartridge is suspect also. If it wasn't you wouldn't be seeing so many M-14's coming out of mothballs, and in such high demand. The 9 MM NATO round is being dumped by many of the Special Ops. guys in favor of .45 ACP's in various flavors.
An average size Mule Deer has a Cardiovascular System much the same in size and function as an average adult male, and is just about as hard to kill. In several states it is illegal to hunt deer with a .223 because it simply doesn't have enough soup to reliably get humane kills. So it shouldn't come as a shock when we use what is basically a varmint round in our military weapons, we're going to get soldiers griping, and wanting more powerful weapons. The crux of that E-Mail translated much the same. Bill T.
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It's no deep, dark secret that the M-4 has had serious functionability problems in Iraq. Google "M-4 rifle problems" and you'll get the phone book, along with enough fireplace reading to keep you busy until late Spring. The 5.56 MM cartridge is suspect also. If it wasn't you wouldn't be seeing so many M-14's coming out of mothballs, and in such high demand. The 9 MM NATO round is being dumped by many of the Special Ops. guys in favor of .45 ACP's in various flavors.
An average size Mule Deer has a Cardiovascular System much the same in size and function as an average adult male, and is just about as hard to kill. In several states it is illegal to hunt deer with a .223 because it simply doesn't have enough soup to reliably get humane kills. So it shouldn't come as a shock when we use what is basically a varmint round in our military weapons, we're going to get soldiers griping, and wanting more powerful weapons. The crux of that E-Mail translated much the same. Bill T.
Amen Brother! And if we can afford one billion dollars a pop bombers, we can certainley do better than the M-4 or the bastard child of the Garand for heavens sake. I mean, I know JMB and Kalishnakov are dead and all, but I reckon if the DOD waves some money around some bright spark might just step up to the plate. I'm not smart enough to have the solution, but I am smart enough to identify the problem and say we need to fix it.
FQ13 who would not be above talking trades with you Bill ;D
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With current ballistics from the 6.5, or 6.8, or even the 7.62x51(.308), which have flat out better ballistics than the 5.56, why is the "same ol', same ol'" 5.56 still standard military issue?
I'm not bashing the AR's, despite their initial problems as well in Vietnam, they have their place as a combat rifle, and in history, however, if evolution and technology can make a more effective combat round, we should be all over it.
Regardless of the OP email, which I read some time ago, it doesn't matter, the crap over there is the same crap. We are just better at figuring it out.
I agree the 5.56 is still a good round, but the 6.8 is better, and the .308 has been there and done that effectively.
just my .02 cents, and wanting to believe our soldiers have the best available. NOT a "cost analysis" bureaucratic decision.
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With current ballistics from the 6.5, or 6.8, or even the 7.62x51(.308), which have flat out better ballistics than the 5.56, why is the "same ol', same ol'" 5.56 still standard military issue?
I'm not bashing the AR's, despite their initial problems as well in Vietnam, they have their place as a combat rifle, and in history, however, if evolution and technology can make a more effective combat round, we should be all over it.
Regardless of the OP email, which I read some time ago, it doesn't matter, the crap over there is the same crap. We are just better at figuring it out.
I agree the 5.56 is still a good round, but the 6.8 is better, and the .308 has been there and done that effectively.
just my .02 cents, and wanting to believe our soldiers have the best available. NOT a "cost analysis" bureaucratic decision.
On that note I read the sniper rifles are being retro fitted to 300 Win. Mag because the lapua would be too costly, but they are refitting the stocks for adjustment and putting a flash hider on them at least.