The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on March 13, 2010, 03:16:25 AM
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This is a semi-casuall question. I am looking at backcountry defense guns (Dad expressed an interest in Ak. for his big trip). So, here are the parameters. This isn't a CCW gun, so no snubbies need apply. Likewise its not a target piece so no scopes, lasers etc.. Honestly, there isn't a handgun made that will stop a grizzly. I'll settle for just getting its attention in a hopefully lethal (to it not me) way. Basically that puts me looking for a 4" -6"barrel in .44 mag and up. Realistically, what works? .454, .50, .44 mag, what? Post trip, if I don't sell it, it will be consigned to knocking pigs down inside of 50 yards. I want these pigs to not only go down, but bounce when they do. (Otherwise I'd just use a .357). So, under $650, DA and a big bang. Where do I look?
FQ13
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so I guess you are not after this one then
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FQ,
If money were no object I would say a Freedom Arms Model 83 in your choice of 454 Casull, .500 Wyoming Express or .475 Linebaugh is the way to go. Large calibers such as these would be a must for me when encountering Alaskan bears, and I question whether 44 Magnum is enough gun for a grizzly. I would play it safe and go for 454 Casull or above. You would need to go around 2 grand for one of those Freedom Arms beauties, however.
So given the target price you indicated, I think a slightly used Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan chambered in 454 Casull would be an excellent choice, albeit a 2.5" barrel, and you said no snubbies.
http://www.ruger.com/products/superRedhawkAlaskan/models.html
If you simply can't live with the short barrel, Ruger makes a standard Super Redhawk chambered in 454 Casull with a 7.5" barrel.
http://www.ruger.com/products/superRedhawkStandard/models.html
I would suggest, however, that you reconsider your barrel length requirement as you want a revolver that allows for the quickest draw possible in brown bear territory and the 2.5" barrel would be ideal in that regard. A charging bear requires that you shut him down instantly so you need to hit him within the triangle formed by the two eyes and the nose. Otherwise, he will still get to you.
S&W's 500 is also a nice choice (with deactivated lock) but a bit more money. A guy shot one off at the indoor range I shoot at last year and set off a car alarm adjacent to the range wall.
Good luck in your selection. Sounds like a great trip.
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The 4" Redhawk in 44 magnum should fit quite nicely into your price range.
(http://www.galleryofguns.com/prod_images/5026.JPG)
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Go with a .454 and you can shoot .45 Colt from it as well.
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FQ,,
A 4" barrel .44 Mag will stop a polar bear. Your choices are many.....besides, if you're in AK, you'll need a 12 ga as well, no worries!
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I would not bother with anything over 44 mag. 4 - 6 inch barrel.
You can get the Freedom Arms BFR in 45/70 if you want, YOU'RE the one who will be toting it all day.
If you pick any of the really big blasters it will be heavy and you will get sick of carrying it around, when you REALLY need it it will be in the truck or back at camp.
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Get a Redhawk in .45 Colt and ammo from Buffalo Bore.
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Get a Redhawk in .45 Colt and ammo from Buffalo Bore.
I've been thinking about saving up my pennies for a 4" Redhawk. Since I don't reload, isn't .44 magnum cheaper and more readily available than .45 Colt?
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Cheaper, not necessarily. I will say finding 'full power' .45 is tough (I get reloads that shoot about 1200fps). The regular .45 is about 750-800 fps. So of what you can find easily the .44 is more powerful.
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.44 would be my choice.
Redhawk would be a great choice in .44 or .45 colt.
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Cheaper, not necessarily. I will say finding 'full power' .45 is tough (I get reloads that shoot about 1200fps). The regular .45 is about 750-800 fps. So of what you can find easily the .44 is more powerful.
Thanks, Haz.
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What activities are the two of you planning on doing? For hiking were weight is a premium I would suggest looking at Smiths 329NG or 329PD. Then there are the standard weight M629 Mountain Guns, M29s and M629. For more needed horses and dollars then don't forget the 460 & 500 with several bbl. lengths.
Just in the last few days in Alaska a women jogging was attacked, killed and eaten by wolves. Best be armed.
CD
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The ammo you choose is probably more critical than caliber choice.
I would, as others suggest, go with at least the .44mag...then you could have the option to download to .44spl to practice. If not the .44, then as Haz suggested, I would go .454 Casull because of the option to shoot .45 Colt. Of course, you could also go with the .460 S&W Mag and shoot .460, .454, AND .45 Colt.
Anyway, regardless of caliber and gun choice, the big issue would be proper ammo for grizzlers and such threats. I'd go with something in the 300+ grain range @ 1200fps with a solid core for penetration purposes. Something like the 44 Rem Mag 300gr COR-BON Hunter FPPN [HT44305FPPN-20]. Guaranteed to rattle your teeth....but then again, if a bear is after you, your teeth ain't the first thing on your mind.
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Go with a .454 and you can shoot .45 Colt from it as well.
This is +1 to what Peg said
My first choice would be S&W .460 then you could shoot .460, .454. or .45's. If that's out of your range at about a $1000, I would go with a good S&W or Ruger in .44 Mag then you all so have the option for 44 spl at the range. I think .44 Mag is plenty for a Grizzly at close range! Remember that my first option is very difficult to shoot one handed and if you can't hit the target with it ???.
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Remember, the handgun is the "latrine" gun and good enough to stop an attack or at the very least get you to a long gun, 12 ga or a big bore lever gun....
I've shot a few .44's with one hand. It ain't fun and it ain't very bright. Watched a guy nearly break his nose with a S&W 500 going one handed a while back. Be smart, one carries the big bore revolver (DAD) and you carry the lever gun, both in the same caliber would be a no brainer.
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Peg, GunsrUs:
The 460 is cool BUT the 460 isn't really much (if any) better than the 454. Get the 454 and shoot 45 (of any hot flavor)
Second I would go Ruger simply because it will stand up to anything! Want to hot up that .44 mag or 454? NO PROBLEM with a Ruger, NOT recommended with the S&W.
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Peg, GunsrUs:
The 460 is cool BUT the 460 isn't really much (if any) better than the 454. Get the 454 and shoot 45 (of any hot flavor)
Second I would go Ruger simply because it will stand up to anything! Want to hot up that .44 mag or 454? NO PROBLEM with a Ruger, NOT recommended with the S&W.
Agreed, my friend...I was just giving viable options. ;)
My first choice for my own use would be a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 magnum. I have 3 of them and they are rugged guns. My second choice would be the same caliber in a Super Redhawk. The Super Redhawk loads faster, but I still like the single actions.
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Under $650, the Ruger Redhawk and Super Redhawk Can't be beat. The Super redhawk can be had in .454/.45 Colt, and .480 Ruger. The Redhawk is pretty much only available in .44 Mag. The 4 inch Redhawk sounds like it would fit your needs well. You may also want to look at the Taurus Raging Bull revolvers. They can be had in .44, .454, and I think there's even a .500 chambering. But .44 and .454 ammo will be a little cheaper most places. If I was choosing for the criteria you suggested, I'd go with the 4 inch Ruger Redhawk.
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.450 nitro, .454 casull, .480 Ruger, 500 - whatever. Don't sweat the details guys. He will buy the hand cannon, and then immediately regret not having bought a different one. Remember the AR? ? ? ;D
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I have to say if it was me I'd go with the .44 mag Redhawk (pick yer barrel) that way a nice 44 lever would complete the set.
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The prices NIB, for many of these are close to $1000.
Ruger 44 Redhawk $575.00
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=160224155
S&W Model 629 4" you'll be stunned.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=160558068
Kick it around a bit, You hope to never draw it out there in the Klondike, but if you do, the target, whatever it is, has to go down....
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.450 nitro, .454 casull, .480 Ruger, 500 - whatever. Don't sweat the details guys. He will buy the hand cannon, and then immediately regret not having bought a different one. Remember the AR? ? ? ;D
Either that, or, buy the cannon, shoot two cylinder fulls, end up with bloody knuckles, and then want to sell it.
That's how I've ended up with several over the years.
;D ;D ;D
Hey, FQ, I've always wanted a .454 Casull............. ;) ;D
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As most forum members know, I'm a S&W fan, but in this case, the Ruger Super redhawk, in .454 Casull, if you are in AK, then carry the full bore Casull ammo, don't go for .45 colt, for eventualities, this is for big bear action, and I love .44 mag, but wince at shooting a charging boar with anything less than the .454 with heavy bullets. 300 grn +. After watching my wife shoot a 400 lb pig, with a rifle. My .44 mag with 300 grn bullets, seemed weak. AK is a different place with really big predators. So I would carry as big as I could, the S&W X frames are great revolvers, but really heavy and might make you not carry it, and is really expensive compared to a Ruger. You can get the Ruger, and lots of ammo, and even customize it a bit for less than the Smith.
Opinions may vary.
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Peg, GunsrUs:
The 460 is cool BUT the 460 isn't really much (if any) better than the 454. Get the 454 and shoot 45 (of any hot flavor)
Second I would go Ruger simply because it will stand up to anything! Want to hot up that .44 mag or 454? NO PROBLEM with a Ruger, NOT recommended with the S&W.
I wouldn't call nearly twice the energy at 100yards only a little! ::)
This from Federals site:
460 S&W BARNES® EXPANDER®
Load Details
Load No Caliber 460 S&W
Grains/ Grams 275 / 17.82
Bullet Style P460XB1
Brand Barnes® Expander®
Use Vital-Shok®
Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
1840 1759 1681 1606 1533
Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)
Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
2067 1890 1726 1575 1434
Wind Drift in Inches (at 10 MPH)
25 Y 50 Y 75Y 100 Y
0.2 0.8 1.7 2.9
Average Range
25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
Zero 0.2 -0.4 -1.8
454 CASULL BARNES® EXPANDER®
Load Details
Load No Caliber P454XB1
Grains/ Grams 454 Casull
Bullet Style 250 / 16.2
Brand Barnes® Expander®
Use Vital-Shok®
Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
1530 1423 1326 1239 1165
Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)
Muzzle 25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
1299 1123 976 852 753
Wind Drift in Inches (at 10 MPH)
25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
0.3 1.3 3.0 5.3
Average Range
25 Y 50 Y 75 Y 100 Y
Zero -0.2 -1.6 -4.4
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but why not a Thompson/Center Contender or Encore? (or similar from other companies) A single shot of an actual RIFLE round, like the Howdah pistols 100 years ago, used to take down Bengal Tigers.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but why not a Thompson/Center Contender or Encore? (or similar from other companies) A single shot of an actual RIFLE round, like the Howdah pistols 100 years ago, used to take down Bengal Tigers.
Cause it's a single shot! ::) :o
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Cause it's a single shot! ::) :o
Well, at least if you don't hit him with the one shot, you can pick up some crap and throw it in his eyes.
And how do you know there will be crap to throw??
Oh, it'll be there...it'll be there.
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Well, at least if you don't hit him with the one shot, you can pick up some crap and throw it in his eyes.
And how do you know there will be crap to throw??
Oh, it'll be there...it'll be there.
LMAO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Overload, last thing I want is a single shot, not to mention, that you cannot carry it on your hip,, even a 10" barrel will take some special holster requirements, and then you have to thumb cock it, like any single action, good gun yes, appropriate for a large boar bear, coming at you, less than I would like, I stand by my advice, a large rifle cartridge like .40 and bigger would be great for hunting, but not when you are the hunted. If I am fishing in a stream, in the country of bears, I want every advantage I can gleam. More than 1 shot, sounds good to me. Now a 2 shot Howdah type pistol in a very large caliber, maybe, but they are more like extremely large derringers, I would rather have a pointable pistol, like a revolver with multiple shot capability.
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Wanted to clear something.....Overload, I wasn't making a wisecrack joke at the expense of your post.
I do agree with M25 on the issue, though as to a single shot.
Now, if I was actually going on a 'hunt' for a bear, and was in a stationary look-out position, then a T/C in a heavy rifle caliber would be a strong consideration....along with a heavy revolver as back-up. But in the instance of back-packing, where an unknown surprise might be lurking, then the big revolver in big calibers are a must....IMHO.
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Wanted to clear something.....Overload, I wasn't making a wisecrack joke at the expense of your post.
I do agree with M25 on the issue, though as to a single shot.
Now, if I was actually going on a 'hunt' for a bear, and was in a stationary look-out position, then a T/C in a heavy rifle caliber would be a strong consideration....along with a heavy revolver as back-up. But in the instance of back-packing, where an unknown surprise might be lurking, then the big revolver in big calibers are a must....IMHO.
+1 on that
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Now that you mention it, Yes I do . ;D
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I am, and always will be a S&W guy, I have a 686 plus and a 629 classic. The triggers are awsome in double or single action.
However, I just picked up a Ruger Redhawk 5.5 inch barrel in 44 mag, trigger is not as smooth, but other than that it is an awsome gun. Solid but not oo heavy, pretty accurate and handled recoil of hot 44 mags real well, as good or better than my 629 classic 6.5 inch barrel with an unfluited cylinder. I also love the way it comes apart for cleaning, better than the standard revolver side opening.
I got it for $400 from a guy that needed money. A friend of mine offered me $500 for it and I told him I wouldn't even sell it for $600.
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I've got the Ruger Redhawk with a 4" barrel and a Winchester lever I picked up from some guy in Florida. Would not part with either of them. ;D
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Y'all know I have the Redhawk .45 (5.5) and the .454 lever.
My son has a .44 629 (6 inch) and a .44 lever.
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Wanted to clear something.....Overload, I wasn't making a wisecrack joke at the expense of your post.
I do agree with M25 on the issue, though as to a single shot.
Now, if I was actually going on a 'hunt' for a bear, and was in a stationary look-out position, then a T/C in a heavy rifle caliber would be a strong consideration....along with a heavy revolver as back-up. But in the instance of back-packing, where an unknown surprise might be lurking, then the big revolver in big calibers are a must....IMHO.
Actually, I thought the replies were funny. I can understand wanting more than one shot. I was JUST thinking about killing/ knockdown power, and even a .44mag isn't a rifle round.
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460 will give you a lot of wiggle room, as it shoots .460, .454 Casull and .45 LC. Successful defense against griz with handguns is rare, but does happen. Even one with a Glock .40. I'd think you be more likely to come across black bears and their have even been successful defenses against them with .357 (you've probably seen the images of the ranger doing a bear re-release that went wrong. He used a .357 after being knocked off of the truck). I love .44 Mag and don't think a 6 inch is too long. I've got a magnaported 629 3-inch, a Colt Anaconda 6, a Vaquero and a Blackhawk. The single actions are the easiest to shoot.
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If you're really going for a walk in something like Alaska grizzly/polar bear country, maybe an AR in 458 Socom, kept in your hands, not on the shoulder.
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I'm not exactly sure where this walk in the woods will take place but if it's in a place that's as free with weapons as Alaska a long gun would be the Best Defense!
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Thanks for the advice guys. Frankly, the consensus confirms what I had already planned, a Ruger in .454. I will look at the snubby, but will feel better with the 4" than a 2.5", assuming it IS a stream situation and I might get the first shot off at ten yards. If its a trail situation, the snubbie would excell. Dad and I went to Admiralty Island many years ago. The brush has to be seen to be beileved, alders, fallen timbers etc Then there's my favorite, Devils Paw. Picture a thin, ten foot tall thistle with palm sized flat leaves with down hanging 1" thorns. You or I would take two steps. A bear wouldn't feel it. If it happened, it would be close and very quick. I bought a 590 for that trip. Great if I could unlimber it, but doubtful if I wasn't already holding it. This time, he's looking at more open country, around Lake Iiliama. The upsides, more open country so more warning, though the alder breaks are still there, and the bears are smaller, 650 pounds vs a thousand. Down side, they are more carnivorous and more prone to attack. (The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away). :-\ ;) Ideally, I would buy a beat to hell .338 win mag or .458 win mag and sell it at the end of the trip. The first trip taught me that there is no way you can fish and deploy a long gun. Same with pushing through brush with gear unless some one is on point. The old man ain't too keen on guides, prefering one day of instruction, then a "drop in and pick you up" kind of deal, so realistically, the handgun it is. And yes Path, I probably WILL be selling it afterwords. I've yet to encounter anything here in So. Fl. that I need or want a .454 casull for...though those pythons can get mighty big. ;)
FQ13
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Wow, you got around to some strange places Gunga Din ;D
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Unless you get the Alaskan, I think Ruger only sell the 454 in a 7 1/2 inch. My dad has that one and it's even a handful with that longer tube. It's a sweet pussycat with 45LC though.
If you get a charge, you want the gun in your hand already anyway - like this guy. That bear looks pretty fierce when it's coming straight at camera like a bullet train(embedding disabled):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw&feature=related
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Unless you get the Alaskan, I think Ruger only sell the 454 in a 7 1/2 inch. My dad has that one and it's even a handful with that longer tube. It's a sweet pussycat with 45LC though.
If you get a charge, you want the gun in your hand already anyway - like this guy. That bear looks pretty fierce when it's coming straight at camera like a bullet train(embedding disabled):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw&feature=related
Ok. Add clean undies to packing list. :o ;D Seriously, here's the thing, a .375 H@H and up would be mo' better, but it might as well have been at home in the safe. Revolver it is. Honestly, I think the gun is more to make you feel better than anything, but point taken about the Alaskan. So, .50 vs .454? Any druthers? Forget versatility and ammo cost and the like. This is a one trip gun. I will sell it afterwards, take the $100-150 hit and get something I'll actually use. I don't have the luxury right now of keeping an odd ball I'll rarely fire and never hunt with/carry when there are more practical guns I still want. So, if you had to fire the second shot, .50 or .454?
FQ13 who is leaning more towards selling the Old Man on the virtue of Costa Rican Sail Fish, where the biggest hazard is overdoing it on the rum and forgetting to apply sunscreen. ;D
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;D No Fear ! ;D
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Ok. Add clean undies to packing list. :o ;D Seriously, here's the thing, a .375 H@H and up would be mo' better, but it might as well have been at home in the safe. Revolver it is. Honestly, I think the gun is more to make you feel better than anything, but point taken about the Alaskan. So, .50 vs .454? Any druthers? Forget versatility and ammo cost and the like. This is a one trip gun. I will sell it afterwards, take the $100-150 hit and get something I'll actually use. I don't have the luxury right now of keeping an odd ball I'll rarely fire and never hunt with/carry when there are more practical guns I still want. So, if you had to fire the second shot, .50 or .454?
FQ13 who is leaning more towards selling the Old Man on the virtue of Costa Rican Sail Fish, where the biggest hazard is overdoing it on the rum and forgetting to apply sunscreen. ;D
What .50 are you talking about? 50 AE Desert Eagle, or S&W 500 Magnum? A Desert Eagle is pretty big, and you can pick just about any of the revolvers and bee in a similar carry situation to it. They do make a shorter .500 Magnum with a 4" tube and similar guns in the .460VR. The .460 can also load down to 454 and again to 45LC, making it a gun that can be used in more real world situations. Likewise, the 454 Ruger can be loaded with the 45's. The 7 1/2 incher isn't really overly huge. Any handgun will be last ditch against a big angry bear, but once you have any gun out, you'll really appreciate a little more barrel. I have a 3 inch .44 Mag and if I don't have to conceal it, will take carrying a little more weight in the 6 inch Anaconda in bear country.
These guys don't seem to be experts, but one of the makes a valuable observation about 12 bullets being better than 6. Probably the best thing you can take is a buddy, or 2 with additional firearms.
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Get one iof the .454 Rugers and keep it for hog hunting when you get home.
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Money aside, this is my first pick for trip through Bear country!
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=44954&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=44954&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y)
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Living in in Oregon where I do a lot fishing. My wood gun is a Glock G-20SF. 10mm with 15+1 capacity. Loaded with 230 hard cast DT ammo. The Glocks reliability and capacity make it a good choice in my opinion.