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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: scott.ballard on March 14, 2010, 12:12:55 PM

Title: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: scott.ballard on March 14, 2010, 12:12:55 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589192,00.html

Here's the first few paragraphs:

WASHINGTON —  Two guns used in high-profile shootings this year at the Pentagon and a Las Vegas courthouse both came from the same unlikely place: the police and court system of Memphis, Tenn.

Law enforcement officials told The Associated Press that both guns were once seized in criminal cases in Memphis. The officials described how the weapons made their separate ways from an evidence vault to gun dealers and to the shooters.

The use of guns that were once in police custody to attack police officers highlights a little-known divide in gun policy in the U.S.: Many cities and states destroy guns gathered in criminal probes, but others sell or trade the weapons in order to get other guns or buy police equipment.




I'm not quite sure how to feel about this.  Confiscate and destroy so there can be no future liability...OR...Confiscate and use to better your department but buy the associated risk IF something happens.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks,
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: Ichiban on March 14, 2010, 12:49:01 PM
If the guns were obtained legally (assume they were), then what does it matter what the serial number on the gun was?  Putting confiscated guns back into the (legal) gun distribution system makes them no different than ones that come from the factor, other than that fact the used guns are cheaper.  It also helps with the PD budget in these tough times.  If they came through a dealer that isn't following the law then that is a different matter all together.

FYI - the local PD just started doing this.  The sheriff has been doing it for years.  I talked to a FFL that previewed the stuff they had for sale (sold in bulk lots to highest bidding FFL) and he said he backed out.  Too much junk he couldn't sell.  Here I though the lowlifes all had top of the line Kimbers.   ::)
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: TAB on March 14, 2010, 01:20:16 PM
gee... I've never said that LEAs selling guns would be a issuse...    ::)



How the end user got the gun, does not matter, what matters is it came from the LEA.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: Pathfinder on March 14, 2010, 01:36:12 PM
Drink deep the kool-aid, TAB.

This is a smokescreen, just like the "gun show loophole". There is absolutely nothing wrong with LEAs selling off confiscated arms through FFLs. It is only little minded people who think that somehow cops should destroy all of the guns they confiscate and then turn the odd coincidence back on the LEAs that are pushing this issue.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: fullautovalmet76 on March 14, 2010, 02:25:34 PM
I'm not quite sure how to feel about this.  Confiscate and destroy so there can be no future liability...OR...Confiscate and use to better your department but buy the associated risk IF something happens.

Anyone have any thoughts?

It's the same problem if the cops sell their cars and those cars are then used to commit bank robberies. Should the cops stop selling the cars in order to reduce bank robberies? A more proper understanding is the percentage of all firearms sold by cops that are used in crimes. I believe the percentage will be so small that it will hardly be worth the trouble of even estimating it.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: scott.ballard on March 14, 2010, 03:03:08 PM
It's the same problem if the cops sell their cars and those cars are then used to commit bank robberies. Should the cops stop selling the cars in order to reduce bank robberies? A more proper understanding is the percentage of all firearms sold by cops that are used in crimes. I believe the percentage will be so small that it will hardly be worth the trouble of even estimating it.

Cars generally do not have the stigma associated with firearms.

I'm all for re-purposing a firearm after it has been rehabilitated while in police custody.  As long as it passes through an FFL and a NICS check is completed who cares where it came from?  Especially if it benefits the department or agency.

I'm wondering more if it is a bad idea for an agency to sell confiscated weapons and accept the risk. I agree that the risk is minimal so I think we'll see the more enlightened agencies sell them off to FFL holders.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: tombogan03884 on March 14, 2010, 03:05:07 PM
FA has a very good point, how many vehicles sold by local, state, and Federal Agencies have been used in Drunk driving offenses ?
This is an insignificant coincidence that supplies ideologically slanted filler for a slow news day.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: bulldog75 on March 14, 2010, 03:17:47 PM
For some small agencies that is the only way they will get tazers and other needed equipment. We traded off some old equipment for new stuff. Yes the gun store owner gave me first dibs on the equipment, because he knew me and he knew that I had carried and used the old S&W model 66 and Remington 870 on duty. They were traded for two brand new 870s. My leather gear and speed loaders were also included.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: twyacht on March 14, 2010, 03:20:13 PM
LEA's auction all kind of seized crap, furniture, cars, boats, golf clubs, tools, and some firearms.

My Ruger Police Service Six, was sold to an FFL from the Oakland County, Ca, Sheriff's office when dept's were transitioning to semi-auto's.

I don't see a problem with LEA's including firearms in an auction through FFL's.  If the serial numbers are cleared, and re-assigned to a lawful purchaser, so what?

Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: MikeBjerum on March 14, 2010, 03:31:26 PM
I had typed a reply earlier, but the gremlins ate it.  So, here it is again -

Do we ever hear about the cars that were seized in drug raids or DUI's that are sold and later show up in a DUI accident?  Or, how about the computers that are deemed surplus by a public entity, sold off at auction, and then later show up in a child on-line porn sting?

It is all about the user, and not the tools.  How about someone in the anti camp start addressing the real issue instead of getting the entire society chasing their tails.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: Solus on March 14, 2010, 04:04:22 PM
taking a similar attitude to the criminals who are taken into custody and convicted would do much more good.

The recycled criminal is so much more of a danger to citizens.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: SwoopSJ on March 15, 2010, 10:07:27 PM
taking a similar attitude to the criminals who are taken into custody and convicted would do much more good.

The criminals can be rehabilitated, though.  The guns involved don't become remorseful, nor do they have the benefit of therapy sessions where their unloving mother, father, neighbor, or dog can be blamed for the mistreatment that caused their criminal behavior.  Guns, also do not have the opportunity to find Allah in the communal shower.  Until these firearms can be reintroduced to society as productive, law-abiding members, we have no choice but to destroy them.

Swoop
    
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: brosometal on March 15, 2010, 10:31:43 PM
I smell a bit o sarcasm...  ::)

I was thinking a bit differently.  What's going on in Memphis that two folks are so pissed off they commence with the shooting?

To answer the question posed, when you blame an inanimate object for some mis-deed.  You are incapable of rational thought.  It doesn't matter if it's a gun, strait pin, yo-yo, or rowing scull.  If I walk down the hall and kick an open door bare foot, it isn't the door's fault.  It doesn't matter how that door is perceived by the public.  Now if that door was stolen and sold illegally for perpetrating skulduggery it still is, in fact, a door.

I don't know.  I guess I still tend to blame people for their own actions... 
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: SwoopSJ on March 15, 2010, 10:53:02 PM
I smell a bit o sarcasm...  ::)

Yeah, sorry.  I guess I stepped in a pile on my way in.   ;D
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: tombogan03884 on March 16, 2010, 01:53:32 AM
I smell a bit o sarcasm...  ::)

I was thinking a bit differently.  What's going on in Memphis that two folks are so pissed off they commence with the shooting?

To answer the question posed, when you blame an inanimate object for some mis-deed.  You are incapable of rational thought.  It doesn't matter if it's a gun, strait pin, yo-yo, or rowing scull.  If I walk down the hall and kick an open door bare foot, it isn't the door's fault.  It doesn't matter how that door is perceived by the public.  Now if that door was stolen and sold illegally for perpetrating skulduggery it still is, in fact, a door.

I don't know.  I guess I still tend to blame people for their own actions... 

Milling machines DO do stuff just to mess with you.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: brosometal on March 16, 2010, 10:24:49 PM
I will have to differ to you, fine sir.  As I don't have much experience with milling machines.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: seeker_two on March 17, 2010, 11:27:07 AM
With all the red herrings in that news article and many of the replies, I'm getting hungry for fish....  :P
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: tt11758 on March 17, 2010, 12:30:55 PM
For some small agencies that is the only way they will get tazers and other needed equipment. We traded off some old equipment for new stuff. Yes the gun store owner gave me first dibs on the equipment, because he knew me and he knew that I had carried and used the old S&W model 66 and Remington 870 on duty. They were traded for two brand new 870s. My leather gear and speed loaders were also included.

Here in my little town, the officers were forced to beg donations from the local merchants to obtain their tasers.  Sad commentary on the short-sightedness of the city fathers, in my (not so) humble opinion.
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: tt11758 on March 17, 2010, 12:34:16 PM


I don't know.  I guess I still tend to blame people for their own actions... 


Oh, HELL no, we can't expect people to be responsible for themselves!!  Not when we're trying to push nanny-state womb-to-the-tomb healthcare!!


(sarcasm switch deactivated)
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: jnevis on March 17, 2010, 12:51:34 PM
Even larger depatments sell off older equipment for new stuff.  I'm still kicking myself about purchasing a new Israeli clone 1911 then finding a STACK of San Diego PD Sig P220s the following week for $50 CHEAPER!  Sure the 1911 shoots OK and I still have it but bloody hell a P220 for $400!

I have known inanimate objects that seemed to have a mind of thier own but they were never capable of doing damage "unsupervised."
Title: Re: Guns From High-Profile Shootings Had Same Origin
Post by: bbbean on March 17, 2010, 12:55:28 PM
I wholeheartedly support police reselling seized firearms for the same reason I support them reselling seized automobiles and other property. No reason at all the bad guys shouldn't forfeit their resources to help offset the cost of their crimes. Looks like a win-win to me - bad guy gets punished, good guy gets a deal on a gun, cops make $$$. Where's the downside?

A gun doesn't turn someone into a criminal. If I believed that, I'd also have to oppose selling guns in gun stores.